The American Dream; The Europeans can dream!

[Superpilot]

I remember seeing these desperately low salaries when finishing my commercial training. I have seen a starting salary as low as $15k for a regional job with a feeder back in 2007. The 1500 hour rule has nothing to do with aviation safety. But this is what happens when there is no regulation. Which way would you prefer it?

[cessnaxpilot]

Originally Posted by rod_1986

I can’t understand why the US majors haven’t simply pressured the US Government to open up more visas for experienced pilots and the FAA to start cross-recognising other regulator’s licences. This (amazing and impressive) virtuous pay spiral will cost them billions of dollars in the long term.

Or is the lobbying power of ALPA (et al) so much stronger than we have with unions this side of the pond?

Genuine answers from our American colleagues welcome! In the meantime I’ll just look on in awe.

my wife is from Europe and currently flies for a US carrier… as do I. Clearly things are trending in the right direction over here, but American is still waiting for a contract.

I can remember years ago when I wanted to fly in Europe, and there was no way for me to easily convert a license or get employment. I think there may be a shortage at the regional anirlines over here, but not at the legacy airlines. That may change in the next year or two, but not currently.

I think we’d have benefited from no direct entry captains, and not having different contracts for different groups. We are all one at each airline. It is like a marriage over here.! Get your number and stand in line. It can be painful, but in the end, I think it benefits the pilot group as a whole. I speak with my friends at Lufthansa and I hear how they have different pilots hired in different years with different contracts. Crazy!

[RARA9]

It’s the classic divide and conquer mentality.
Take BA for example…. PP24 was the norm then they introduced PP34 . A huge difference for a career !!!
but once enough people are on the PP34 they will vote against the PP24.

[Speed_Trim_Fail]

Originally Posted by RARA9

It’s the classic divide and conquer mentality.
Take BA for example…. PP24 was the norm then they introduced PP34 . A huge difference for a career !!!
but once enough people are on the PP34 they will vote against the PP24.

Absolutely correct - and it is worse at some other legacy airlines.

I believe the US also benefits from the fact that there is a continent wide union, something that doesn’t exist across Europe, a comparable land mass with massively varying costs of living and, in pilots, a very mobile work force.

[SunSmith]

The problem in the UK is that the Unions are self-inflicted weak. BALPA, within BA in particular, likes to "get around the table" as if they are management consultants. We only every hear excuses and arguments as to why pilots in the UK are not worth the same as US counterparts. Excuses such as US furlough, chapter 11.... all missing the blatantly obvious point that like-for-like carriers have overall better long term earnings, standards of living and retirement prospects. Ask BALPA for evidence of their arguments and they can't show any.....

Within BA, the main issue is that BALPA reps are too afraid of their own shadows to tell pilots to respect each other and BLRs. They allow people to "work for free", encourage people to volunteer for jobs (flying and none flying) with the excuse that "pilots don't like to be told what to do"...... undermining agreements to such an extent that BA ops/management go out of their way to "forget" rules that attract overtime payments etc....

I know/heard of a few chaps on SH who stick to their principles and try to ensure their co-pilots are treated fairly. One chap got his co the 1.25 NCP that he was owed).....when BALPA told the FO "it's too late".....

until the pilots and their union grow a pair, things won't change..... even today OPS are asking for volunteers to cover work at single rate.....

[cactusbusdrvr]

Originally Posted by SunSmith

The problem in the UK is that the Unions are self-inflicted weak. BALPA, within BA in particular, likes to "get around the table" as if they are management consultants. We only every hear excuses and arguments as to why pilots in the UK are not worth the same as US counterparts. Excuses such as US furlough, chapter 11.... all missing the blatantly obvious point that like-for-like carriers have overall better long term earnings, standards of living and retirement prospects. Ask BALPA for evidence of their arguments and they can't show any.....

Within BA, the main issue is that BALPA reps are too afraid of their own shadows to tell pilots to respect each other and BLRs. They allow people to "work for free", encourage people to volunteer for jobs (flying and none flying) with the excuse that "pilots don't like to be told what to do"...... undermining agreements to such an extent that BA ops/management go out of their way to "forget" rules that attract overtime payments etc....

I know/heard of a few chaps on SH who stick to their principles and try to ensure their co-pilots are treated fairly. One chap got his co the 1.25 NCP that he was owed).....when BALPA told the FO "it's too late".....

until the pilots and their union grow a pair, things won't change..... even today OPS are asking for volunteers to cover work at single rate.....

I have never understood the weak dick mentality of pilot unions in Europe. Lord knows, every other workforce is ready to burn the place down (cough, cough, France).

You want to know why pilot salaries are high in the US? Pilot unions and seniority lists. Every airline has both. Being locked into a list means you will do what it takes to improve your wage and benefits. And since we are now 40 years into the post deregulation environment there are many opportunities for pilots to choose a job so that forces carriers to offer attractive packages to entice new hires. Los Estados Unitas is a big country with crappy public funded transport, particularly inter city. So aviation is a staple. Passengers, cargo, everyone wants to be there or get their package deliveries right now. So aviation flourishes.

Another thing to consider is that aviation terms and conditions are only now starting to recover to the pre 9/11 terms. Airline management took advantage of the terror attacks on 9/11 to destroy pilot contracts. They were able to do this until the basic economic principle of supply and demand caught up with the lack of pilot starts driven by those ridiculous starting salaries for regional pilots. Now they are playing catch up. And they are paying to play. FUPM.

The reality is that the passenger has been taking advantage of low fares that can easily absorb an elasticity in price. $99 fares across the country are not good for anyone except the great unwashed who are **** to have as passengers anyway. Post Covid flying a bunch of domestic flights I had more unruly passengers requiring police meeting the flight than in my previous 38 years of airline flying. Thankfully international opened back up and the issues were left to the guys flying domestic. Business travelers will pay the fares, and it’s just a small part of the operating cost of a flight even if both cockpit crew are making $555/hr. I pissed that much away if I held 10 minutes going into LHR.

[Busdriver01]

Originally Posted by cactusbusdrvr

You want to know why pilot salaries are high in the US? Pilot unions and seniority lists. Every airline has both.

Even the European airlines with both of these cant manage to secure what the Americans have, though..

[172_driver]

I am always surprised pilots are comparing even gross salaries across the world without any critical thought. Look at the employer social contributions, what the state pays for and what cost is put on the individual. It varies significantly, also within Europe.

Supply and demand, labour rules, union strength, market size seals the deal.

[A321drvr]

Originally Posted by 172_driver

I am always surprised pilots are comparing even gross salaries across the world without any critical thought. Look at the employer social contributions, what the state pays for and what cost is put on the individual. It varies significantly, also within Europe.

Supply and demand, labour rules, union strength, market size seals the deal.

You can only compare gross salaries as individual situations vary: number and age of children, spouse's income, extra income, current residency, etc. Everyone has to make the educated calculation based on the above (using some available web tools) whether it's worth moving or not.

[Whitemonk Returns]

Fair play to the American Unions for what they have achieved but comparing like for like is silly when you don't factor in the cost of living in any decent city in America, healthcare, University costs for children etc, I would imagine it's actually closer than you think. I'm a single aisle Captain in the UK grossing just under 170k next year and it will cost £9k to send my child to university per year, it's likely 5 to 10 times more across the Atlantic.

[booze]

I think you're all forgetting about the numbers quoted above are only salary based on minimum guarantee (monthly 70-ish odd hrs in most cases). Medical, dental, vision and 401k (pension) matching (in some cases extra company/union pension too - UPS/DL comes to mind), tax free per diems, etc. are on top of of those numbers. Taxes/social differ for everyone (joint filing with your spouse or single filing just one example) and are largely varying on your domicile, too (NY is one of the highest whether in some states you don't even pay state tax, just federal). Guy i know in UPS for example clears north of 300k yearly, after taxes and social.

[Alrosa]

Interesting. I think the cost of living bearing in mind one’s personal circumstances, is of course relevant.

I think one has to remember that any move would, I understand, mean joining the bottom of a very long seniority list. I don’t know how payscales work over there but I imagine some of the figures being quoted are for folk who aren’t at the bottom of the seniority list !

The elephant in the room of course is that it’s practically still very difficult for most people with no obvious connections to get the right to live and work in the states. Not impossible, but difficult.

[booze]

Indeed. Basically one has to work out how much the rest (until the age of 65 for now) of their career is worth. Having that in mind it's an educated (yearly salary scales and upgrade predictions on various fleets for each operator are available) guess whether it's worth pursuing it or not.

[Long Haul]

Originally Posted by rod_1986

I can’t understand why the US majors haven’t simply pressured the US Government to open up more visas for experienced pilots and the FAA to start cross-recognising other regulator’s licences. This (amazing and impressive) virtuous pay spiral will cost them billions of dollars in the long term.

Or is the lobbying power of ALPA (et al) so much stronger than we have with unions this side of the pond?

Genuine answers from our American colleagues welcome! In the meantime I’ll just look on in awe.

There is already a perfectly good law in place that says that US companies can't just pressure the government to open up more visas to foreigners, they have to prove that they can't hire enough domestically, which the regional airlines have successfully done. The major airlines don't have that problem, however. As to recognizing foreign licenses, are you saying that US pilots should be able to operate UK and EU aircraft based on their FAA licenses? Because until that happens there's no chance you're going to be able just walk in and get a US ATP certificate. Fortunately they are pretty easy to get anyway, at least a lot easier than a US pilot trying to get an EU license. The best strategy for US airlines is to lobby to extend the retirement age and lower experience requirements, but there isn't much political will to do either. The pay gap has it's roots in a lot of causes, the strong USD, the fact that contracts are typically only renegotiated every four years or so, but the main reason is that flying in the USA is very profitable right now so the airlines want to do more of it, and they need pilots. And they can afford to pay them more. Delta made profits north of 3 billion dollars in 2018, 4 billion in 2019, and more than 1 billion in 2022 while still recovering from the pandemic. All this while the US government pumped $25 billion into the industry that doesn't need to be repaid. Yes ALPA has some negotiating power, but all the power in the world pales in comparison to the basic laws of economics; right now there is unprecedented low supply and high demand for our services.

[AAGpilot]

Update. An agreement in principal has been reached. Here’s some bullet points. 21% raise on date of sign, 37% through term of the contract. For reference, in 2027 this agreement puts a narrow body Captain at $394/hour and a wide body Captain at $484/hour.


Fellow Pilots,

On May 18, 2023, APA and American Airlines successfully negotiated agreements in principle on several remaining economic items, including pay rates. These agreements complement previously agreed-to items, including enhanced work rules and scheduling improvements that focus on quality of life and operational integrity. We will publish a high-level summary and provide more details in the coming days.

However, we understand that the desire for details is shared by all as we move forward with this process. To provide some of those details, we offer the following selected highlights addressed in this agreement. The below bullet points do not fully detail the changes to the agreement, are not all inclusive, and are for informational purposes only.

Summarized Highlights

Note: All “May 2” dates are based on an Aug. 1, 2023, ratification that will change if the agreement is not ratified Aug. 1.

• Duration – 4 years; Amendable date: Aug. 1, 2027
• Back Pay – (based on eligible earnings)
  • 2020: 4%
  • 2021: 4%
  • 2022: 14%
  • 2023: ~21% (3 months preceding DOS (thus effective May 2, 2023)
• Pay rates that meet or exceed Delta pay rates:
  • (DOS ~21% increase)
  • May 2, 2024: 5%
  • May 2, 2025: 4%
  • May 2, 2026: 4%
  • May 2, 2027: 3% Amendable year raise
• Increase of 401(k) contributions increase to:
  • 17% on May 2, 2024
  • 18% on May 2, 2026
• Realign pay step date (pay longevity) to date of hire for all pilots who have not reached 12th year pay.
• Establish a Market Based Cash Balance Plan.
• Sick sell-back – or – Retiree Health Reimbursement Arrangement (RHRA) option for pilots at retirement at 66% of the value of accrued sick bank (up to $200,000).
• Vacation year 2024/2025 and beyond: 4:35 pay per day.
• Vacation year 2025/2026 and beyond: 4:00 credit per day.
• Increase of vacation accrual to 35 days at 19 years of service.
• Long-haul narrowbody (NB) override: CA $8.00/FO $6.00 on all NB flying to Europe, South America (south of the equator), and Hawaii.
• International Override: CA $6.50/FO $4.50 (includes Canada).
• Improved profit sharing to the Delta formula (10% up to $2.5B pre-tax profit, 20% for anything above).
• Increase training pay to 5:00 per day.
• Increase (long course) training pay for Initial, Upgrade, Transition to 3:05 per day.
• Holiday pay for nine (9) holidays of an additional 5:15 for each designated holiday duty touches (includes simulator training, DHD’s to/from training, OE, and CKP).
• Deadhead (DHD) pays greater of scheduled or actual if pilot on aircraft.
• Jumpseat: Captain may coordinate to account for expected taxi fuel burn to offset jumpseat occupant.
• Pairing Construction Limits:
  • 1- and 2-day pairings: minimum of 20%
  • 4-day pairings: average maximum of 38% in a rolling 12-month period, max 43% in any month
  • 5-day pairings: average max of 8% in a rolling 12-month period, max of 10% in any month
• Elimination of ACARS use for scheduling purposes.
• Newly developed pilot-centric Electronic Communication System (ECS).
• No DHD prior to redeye flight segment on allocated sequences.
• 2:00 hours pay, no credit for sequences that release between 0000-0159.
• Development of graduated premium scale:
  • 50%, 75%, 100%
• Movement of pilot DFP only with pilot consent (no moveable DFP).
• Adjustments to reserve assignment system utilizing buckets and seniority.
• Company may not search or schedule reserve pilot to fly in the lineholder month.
• Reserves reassigned will be paid in accordance with the reassignment pay provisions.
• If a reserve pilot is scheduled into a DFP (no later than noon), the pilot will receive 5:15 pay/no credit (above guarantee) and the DFP must be restored within the current month; if the DFP cannot be restored (e.g., remainder of month consists of only DFPs), or the pilot elects to not have the DFP restored, the pilot will receive an additional 5:15 pay/no credit (above guarantee).
• DFP trading via TTS-like system with transparency and conditions.
• Long Call increased to 14 hours outside of DOTC.
• Sit rig to pay for all sit time, including due to delays, reassignments, and reserve assignments, for all block-in to block-out time in excess of 2:30
• ALV (Average Line Value) window reduced to 74-82 hours, with conditional flex up.
• Reassignments will pay 50% premium for segments in the current/first duty period of a reassignment and 100% premium of all segments in subsequent duty period until the pilot is returned to original sequence or domicile.
• Pilot shared sequences implemented at DOS.
• Sequence Protection, Recovery Obligation, and Replacement Flying improvements that increase pilot optionality.
• Adjustments and protections surrounding NB Split Duty Pairings.
  • Min pay rig of 7:45
  • Max 2 flight segments (1 outbound, 1 inbound)
  • Max total scheduled block time: 4:15
• Check Pilots
  • 6.0-hour min day including schoolhouse work.
  • 20% override for all X-Type schoolhouse work.
  • 15-day standard month (Company can schedule up to 17): 16th day and greater at overtime (additional 2.5 hours/day above 15 days).
  • X & L Type CKP paid 12th year pay for what can hold in 4-part bid status.
  • Create Line Check Pilot (LCP) position.
    • LCP bid with PBS
    • 25% override pay for all Flight Standards work performed.
  • Create Instructor Pilot (IP) position.
    • IP paid highest bid status can hold capped at 12th year WB FO.
    • 15% override pay for IP work performed.
• Minimum of 4 vacancy bid awards annually.
• Long Term Disability (LTD):
  • New LTD
    • Monthly Benefit: 50% of Pre-Disability Earnings, no cap, fully pensionable.
    • Removal of all offsets.
    • Reduce elimination period from 90 days to 60 days.
    • Imputed Income Option: annual election would allow LTD benefits to be “tax-free.”
  • Improvements to Existing LTD Plans
    • Increase monthly benefit by 30%.
    • Remove ALL remaining offsets.
    • Pilot on LTD and employed by AA as a Sim-P may continue to receive current LTD benefit.
  • Life insurance increase to $500,000.
  • FAA first Class Medical reimbursement of up to $278 or $457 with EKG.

A more comprehensive list of agreed-to items from your Negotiating Committee will be forthcoming.

The Negotiating Committee will continue to draft full contractual language that will be presented to the Board of Directors as a proposed tentative agreement (TA). The Board of Directors will then deliberate and decide whether to forward the proposed TA to the membership for ratification.

[CaptainProp]

Originally Posted by AIMINGHIGH123

I disagree. Yes there won’t be an increase like they are seeing over in USA but I reckon we will see an up tick.

RYR still losing masses to the likes of ME carriers.
Brexit may actually help UK licensed pilots.
Anyone starting training now or has just finished have gone or will go EASA route. That gives RYR and Wizz as options to start.
RYR are struggling to fill RUK side of operations.
If you’re jet rated in UK last few months has seen some pretty good options. I know a few people recently who have said to me. “I don’t know where to go?” Been offered Virgin, BA, J2, DHL, Qatar.
UK wise for an FO just looking at ££k J2 is looking mighty. £75k now I think? Summer yes they work hard. Winter though my mate seems to do couple of days work every 2 weeks.
EU land I don’t have my ear to the ground. I do know guys/gals who have got 500hrs at RYR and off to AF/KLM etc.

One thing about the US is yes salaries are looking very good right now.
The cynic in me says yes BUT….. 2 words….
Chapter Eleven.
All bets are off at that stage.

UK and EU based operators will just make type rating schemes more accessible, perhaps open up and (initially) pay ratings for non-rated pilots against ridiculous reduced T&Cs for years on end to “pay back” the costs of training, and they’ll fill any demand in the coming 5/10/15 years. Sorry to break it to you, but there will be no substantial increase or improvement on T&Cs in UK or EU.

CP

[wondering]

Originally Posted by randon

There is no way how to compare both markets. It's like to try to compare apple and oranges. The wages in America are like that simply becouse of the oldest law of capitalism... Offer and demand...

I´d disagree. That´s only one variable. Ever wondered why unionized pilots usually earn more than non-unionized?

[3MTA3]

Meanwhile Smartlynx is sending underpaid European pilots to be based in Miami and fly from there and not a single American union is moving to stop it from happening.......

[Check Airman]

Originally Posted by 3MTA3

Meanwhile Smartlynx is sending underpaid European pilots to be based in Miami and fly from there and not a single American union is moving to stop it from happening.......

Haven't heard about this. Any details you can share?

[Consol]

Originally Posted by 3MTA3

Meanwhile Smartlynx is sending underpaid European pilots to be based in Miami and fly from there and not a single American union is moving to stop it from happening.......

Details?