Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Terms and Endearment
Reload this Page >

BA pilots vote to strike

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

BA pilots vote to strike

Old 4th Sep 2019, 09:51
  #181 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1998
Posts: 84
Originally Posted by RoyMunson View Post
Isnít it? My source is pretty reliable. You not from BA are you? Tell us what you know?
Roy. Yes I am and this line of the thread has got cock-all relevance to the topic.
A340Yumyum is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2019, 10:12
  #182 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Planet Funk
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by A340Yumyum View Post


Roy. Yes I am and this line of the thread has got cock-all relevance to the topic.
You're right. Apologies. Back to topic.
RoyMunson is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2019, 10:33
  #183 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: s england
Posts: 192
Deleted thought better of it

Last edited by sudden twang; 6th Sep 2019 at 12:37.
sudden twang is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2019, 11:36
  #184 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,839
..During the IA..

Probably gives a heads up as to the contents of BA's hitherto unspecified "disruption agreement" that they want to introduce as part of the deal.
wiggy is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2019, 16:30
  #185 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 733
Maybe it will crystallise a few peopleís opinions on the pay dispute. I know that virtually everything BA do now is grudging. They really are at war with their own staff. Why anybody would join such a disfunctional company is beyond me. Maybe all UK companies are like this nowadays?
hunterboy is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2019, 16:39
  #186 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Surrey
Posts: 453
Originally Posted by sudden twang View Post
BA just raised the stakes, EASA FTLs min rest roster changes 3 crew to 2 crew etc.
Haven't they flown to EASA regs for a while? What exactly is it they've just introduced?
Busdriver01 is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2019, 17:12
  #187 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,839
Originally Posted by Busdriver01 View Post
Haven't they flown to EASA regs for a while? What exactly is it they've just introduced?
In Longhaul details such as crewing composition, nights off/before after a Long Range sector and umpteen other things are still driven (usually) by Industrial Agreement, not "EASA regs"
wiggy is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2019, 18:32
  #188 (permalink)  

Only half a speed-brake
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Commuting home
Age: 42
Posts: 3,005
Just stating the obvious, but perhaps not so to the outsiders of the profession.

Flying pure EASA FTL to all of its limits is fraught with danger. They have been designed after much industrial struggle, to allow for various and vastly different operational models. Short-haul jet, regional turboprop, WW longrange, night freight, et al. The FTL "envelope" in its individual corners enables some unusually looking things, such as 11:30 stick time a day for a two man crew.

To keep the duty load reasonable (safely non tiring) one cannot venture from one extreme point of the FTL to another, and then another and then all of them. That would not work, fatigue is sure to appear - and hence the requirement for Fatigue Management System.

A group of pilots sharing the same operational mode can be pushed quite hard to the limits in one area for the mutual benefit of their employer's economical longevity - and safely so - as long as they are not made to hit the redlines of all the limits (that had been drawn to allow for another type of flying work).

It could be a very robust Fatigue Report system, national regulation or in-house industrial agreements that assure the pilots are only made to play one "role". Typically an airline would have only one of those three since in peaceful times one is sufficient. Lift the restrictions, stretch people far and wide, and it is heading towards a sorry state.

I understand in the UK the old rules did not allow near as much as the EASA FTL. But it was never ment to be applied in its full extent to one (group of) individual(s). Godspeed.
FlightDetent is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2019, 20:21
  #189 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: The Dirty South
Posts: 415
Originally Posted by RoyMunson View Post


He failed his final line check but passed on a second attempt with a more Ďfriendlyí trainer.
Shocking news.

That canít possibly be true. His flying skills are legendary ! Exceeded only by his humility, lack of rat-like cunning, and an innate drive to better his fellow pilots lives. Even if itís at the expense of his own burning ambitions.

Has anyone ever heard of a DC9 landing so hard that the passenger 02 masks all fall out ? Quite a sight, I assume.
JPJP is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2019, 20:24
  #190 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 791
EASA FTLs lashup

...
EASA FTLs is the lashup compromise between the demands of the aviation authorities and airlines of twenty eight different nations, with a pre-existing spectrum ranging from sensible evidence-based FTLs, to no previous FTLs at all. I don't think the pilots or unions were allowed much of a lookin.

....
Lordflasheart is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2019, 20:32
  #191 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: The Dirty South
Posts: 415
Originally Posted by Lordflasheart View Post
...
EASA FTLs is the lashup compromise between the demands of the aviation authorities and airlines of twenty eight different nations, with a pre-existing spectrum ranging from sensible evidence-based FTLs, to no previous FTLs at all. I don't think the pilots or unions were allowed much of a lookin.

....
No. Itís common for a Collective Bargaining Agreement to further limit FTL. An example - Delta requires a 3 man crew on any ocean crossing segment. For a Legacy airline like British Airways to have such shockingly bad conditions is surprising. Itís heartening to see the pilot group pushing back.

The ďLĒ stands for ĎLimití. Thatís why theyíre not called Flight Time Goals.
JPJP is offline  
Old 4th Sep 2019, 21:27
  #192 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 791
EASA FTLs

...
Sorry JP, I didn't make myself clear.

What I meant was ...'Not much of a lookin - as to the negotiation and setting of EASA FTLs.'

You are quite correct to say that each airline is at liberty to negotiate with its pilots (or vice versa) as to any lesser ‘industrial’ limits - and quite right too, especially for the Delta example you quote.

The bloke in my pub who claims to be a BA pilot, says BA Longhaul currently works to negotiated ‘industrial’ limits, but BA Shorthaul for some reason already works to EASA limits.

In euro-management-speak, 'limit' seems to be synonymous with 'goal' and the result seems to be permanent exhaustion under their new rostering system.

Don’t ask me why, or if he's correct. We just buy him beer to listen to his flying stories.

...
Lordflasheart is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2019, 01:19
  #193 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,839
Sounds like your mate in the pub is pretty much correct..(including the comment about exhaustion)

BA Shorthaul for some reason already works to EASA limits.
As I recall it that was something to do with BALPA trying to persuade the beancounters at BA to bring the BMI work in house at the time of the merger ( can we call it that?), rather than BA setting up a parallel short haul operation ex LHR with BMI assets ...the fact that only Short haul, only, went almost fully EASA is not unsurprisingly still the source of some..err...angst...
wiggy is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2019, 09:36
  #194 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Centre of Universe
Posts: 304
Originally Posted by hunterboy View Post
Maybe it will crystallise a few peopleís opinions on the pay dispute. I know that virtually everything BA do now is grudging. They really are at war with their own staff. Why anybody would join such a disfunctional company is beyond me. Maybe all UK companies are like this nowadays?
I think there's quiet a few AOC's out there that have good relations with the Union's having gone through "yee who has the last laugh" syndrome. Problem is with Pilots it's always want want want #joking
Twiglet1 is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2019, 12:15
  #195 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 130
wiggy's comment that BA Short Haul "went almost fully EASA" is a worry. The trashing of the UK's CAA FTLs (Flight Time Limitations) in favour of EASA's FTLs (Fatigue Target Limitations?) was probably the biggest act of vandalism against flight safety in Britain. I am so glad that my "extended recovery rest period" ('EASA-speak' for 'Days Off') is always many multiples of the EASA 'target' minimum. 'Going almost fully EASA' on FTLs would have been a hugely detrimental change to Ts&Cs. I am almost starting to understand the strike...
NoelEvans is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2019, 12:46
  #196 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Planet Funk
Posts: 30
RoyMunson is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2019, 19:57
  #197 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Centre of Universe
Posts: 304
Originally Posted by NoelEvans View Post
wiggy's comment that BA Short Haul "went almost fully EASA" is a worry. The trashing of the UK's CAA FTLs (Flight Time Limitations) in favour of EASA's FTLs (Fatigue Target Limitations?) was probably the biggest act of vandalism against flight safety in Britain. I am so glad that my "extended recovery rest period" ('EASA-speak' for 'Days Off') is always many multiples of the EASA 'target' minimum. 'Going almost fully EASA' on FTLs would have been a hugely detrimental change to Ts&Cs. I am almost starting to understand the strike...
Noel - My experience is that most UK AOC's took a mature stance on EASA FTL and worked closely with the CAA and Unions to provide protection against any weaknesses in EASA FTL - don't forget the prescriptive limits are similar to what was around in Europe under JAA regs for donkeys years. Some of the regs "trashed" included the early/late/night regs and the factored sectors for sectors over 7hrs - no doubt you want Flight Engineers bought back? There were also some good points to EASA like the acclimatisation rules.There is also the contentious issue of "back to back" long haul and the onus on both AOC and crew members responsibilities towards the C word - Yep EASA FTL is horrible if taken to its limit but I don't know of any UK AOC that does that - for one crews are protected by the Working Time Agreement, normally generous leave allowances, part time agreements and scheduling agreements.
So what 3 years into EASA FTL you need to come up with some examples of "the biggest act of vandalism of Flight Safety in Britain" or is it just perception???
Twiglet1 is offline  
Old 6th Sep 2019, 18:33
  #198 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: WILTSHIRE
Posts: 82
I hear the phrase " at war with the management" more and more, which seems really to be the cause of the strike. I dont actually think its about money. It is about how you are treated by your manager. I have only witnessed the short haul middle management and I truly believe that after five other airlines, they are the most bigoted, incompetent, egotistical, uncommunicative, even spiteful people I have ever had this misfortune to meet or fly with. One is ex BMI. I truly wish them there comeuppance (sp ?) . I sincerely hope that the inevitable fall of the slippery ladder is a long one
red9 is offline  
Old 6th Sep 2019, 19:42
  #199 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: London,England
Posts: 1,308
I think the war is with those far higher up the slippery ladder than the Airbus management.
Max Angle is offline  
Old 6th Sep 2019, 21:38
  #200 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Home
Posts: 944
Originally Posted by Max Angle View Post
I think the war is with those far higher up the slippery ladder than the Airbus management.

Cabin crew member just heard rumours that pilots to lose Staff Travel for 3 years?? Presumably if they Strike.
cessnapete is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.