BA pilots vote to strike
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 954
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From: england
Maybe it will crystallise a few people’s opinions on the pay dispute. I know that virtually everything BA do now is grudging. They really are at war with their own staff. Why anybody would join such a disfunctional company is beyond me. Maybe all UK companies are like this nowadays?
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,726
Likes: 103
From: The Winchester
In Longhaul details such as crewing composition, nights off/before after a Long Range sector and umpteen other things are still driven (usually) by Industrial Agreement, not "EASA regs"
Only half a speed-brake
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,459
Likes: 136
From: Commuting not home
Just stating the obvious, but perhaps not so to the outsiders of the profession.
Flying pure EASA FTL to all of its limits is fraught with danger. They have been designed after much industrial struggle, to allow for various and vastly different operational models. Short-haul jet, regional turboprop, WW longrange, night freight, et al. The FTL "envelope" in its individual corners enables some unusually looking things, such as 11:30 stick time a day for a two man crew.
To keep the duty load reasonable (safely non tiring) one cannot venture from one extreme point of the FTL to another, and then another and then all of them. That would not work, fatigue is sure to appear - and hence the requirement for Fatigue Management System.
A group of pilots sharing the same operational mode can be pushed quite hard to the limits in one area for the mutual benefit of their employer's economical longevity - and safely so - as long as they are not made to hit the redlines of all the limits (that had been drawn to allow for another type of flying work).
It could be a very robust Fatigue Report system, national regulation or in-house industrial agreements that assure the pilots are only made to play one "role". Typically an airline would have only one of those three since in peaceful times one is sufficient. Lift the restrictions, stretch people far and wide, and it is heading towards a sorry state.
I understand in the UK the old rules did not allow near as much as the EASA FTL. But it was never ment to be applied in its full extent to one (group of) individual(s). Godspeed.
Flying pure EASA FTL to all of its limits is fraught with danger. They have been designed after much industrial struggle, to allow for various and vastly different operational models. Short-haul jet, regional turboprop, WW longrange, night freight, et al. The FTL "envelope" in its individual corners enables some unusually looking things, such as 11:30 stick time a day for a two man crew.
To keep the duty load reasonable (safely non tiring) one cannot venture from one extreme point of the FTL to another, and then another and then all of them. That would not work, fatigue is sure to appear - and hence the requirement for Fatigue Management System.
A group of pilots sharing the same operational mode can be pushed quite hard to the limits in one area for the mutual benefit of their employer's economical longevity - and safely so - as long as they are not made to hit the redlines of all the limits (that had been drawn to allow for another type of flying work).
It could be a very robust Fatigue Report system, national regulation or in-house industrial agreements that assure the pilots are only made to play one "role". Typically an airline would have only one of those three since in peaceful times one is sufficient. Lift the restrictions, stretch people far and wide, and it is heading towards a sorry state.
I understand in the UK the old rules did not allow near as much as the EASA FTL. But it was never ment to be applied in its full extent to one (group of) individual(s). Godspeed.
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 470
Likes: 52
From: The Dirty South
That can’t possibly be true. His flying skills are legendary ! Exceeded only by his humility, lack of rat-like cunning, and an innate drive to better his fellow pilots lives. Even if it’s at the expense of his own burning ambitions.
Has anyone ever heard of a DC9 landing so hard that the passenger 02 masks all fall out ? Quite a sight, I assume.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,092
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EASA FTLs lashup
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EASA FTLs is the lashup compromise between the demands of the aviation authorities and airlines of twenty eight different nations, with a pre-existing spectrum ranging from sensible evidence-based FTLs, to no previous FTLs at all. I don't think the pilots or unions were allowed much of a lookin.
....
EASA FTLs is the lashup compromise between the demands of the aviation authorities and airlines of twenty eight different nations, with a pre-existing spectrum ranging from sensible evidence-based FTLs, to no previous FTLs at all. I don't think the pilots or unions were allowed much of a lookin.
....
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 470
Likes: 52
From: The Dirty South
...
EASA FTLs is the lashup compromise between the demands of the aviation authorities and airlines of twenty eight different nations, with a pre-existing spectrum ranging from sensible evidence-based FTLs, to no previous FTLs at all. I don't think the pilots or unions were allowed much of a lookin.
....
EASA FTLs is the lashup compromise between the demands of the aviation authorities and airlines of twenty eight different nations, with a pre-existing spectrum ranging from sensible evidence-based FTLs, to no previous FTLs at all. I don't think the pilots or unions were allowed much of a lookin.
....
The “L” stands for ‘Limit’. That’s why they’re not called Flight Time Goals.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 1,092
Likes: 47
EASA FTLs
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Sorry JP, I didn't make myself clear.
What I meant was ...'Not much of a lookin - as to the negotiation and setting of EASA FTLs.'
You are quite correct to say that each airline is at liberty to negotiate with its pilots (or vice versa) as to any lesser ‘industrial’ limits - and quite right too, especially for the Delta example you quote.
The bloke in my pub who claims to be a BA pilot, says BA Longhaul currently works to negotiated ‘industrial’ limits, but BA Shorthaul for some reason already works to EASA limits.
In euro-management-speak, 'limit' seems to be synonymous with 'goal' and the result seems to be permanent exhaustion under their new rostering system.
Don’t ask me why, or if he's correct. We just buy him beer to listen to his flying stories.
...
Sorry JP, I didn't make myself clear.
What I meant was ...'Not much of a lookin - as to the negotiation and setting of EASA FTLs.'
You are quite correct to say that each airline is at liberty to negotiate with its pilots (or vice versa) as to any lesser ‘industrial’ limits - and quite right too, especially for the Delta example you quote.
The bloke in my pub who claims to be a BA pilot, says BA Longhaul currently works to negotiated ‘industrial’ limits, but BA Shorthaul for some reason already works to EASA limits.
In euro-management-speak, 'limit' seems to be synonymous with 'goal' and the result seems to be permanent exhaustion under their new rostering system.
Don’t ask me why, or if he's correct. We just buy him beer to listen to his flying stories.
...
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,726
Likes: 103
From: The Winchester
Sounds like your mate in the pub is pretty much correct..(including the comment about exhaustion)
As I recall it that was something to do with BALPA trying to persuade the beancounters at BA to bring the BMI work in house at the time of the merger ( can we call it that?), rather than BA setting up a parallel short haul operation ex LHR with BMI assets ...the fact that only Short haul, only, went almost fully EASA is not unsurprisingly still the source of some..err...angst...
BA Shorthaul for some reason already works to EASA limits.
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 387
Likes: 1
From: Centre of Universe
Maybe it will crystallise a few people’s opinions on the pay dispute. I know that virtually everything BA do now is grudging. They really are at war with their own staff. Why anybody would join such a disfunctional company is beyond me. Maybe all UK companies are like this nowadays?
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 359
Likes: 221
From: Yorkshire
wiggy's comment that BA Short Haul "went almost fully EASA" is a worry. The trashing of the UK's CAA FTLs (Flight Time Limitations) in favour of EASA's FTLs (Fatigue Target Limitations?) was probably the biggest act of vandalism against flight safety in Britain. I am so glad that my "extended recovery rest period" ('EASA-speak' for 'Days Off') is always many multiples of the EASA 'target' minimum. 'Going almost fully EASA' on FTLs would have been a hugely detrimental change to Ts&Cs. I am almost starting to understand the strike...
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
From: Planet Funk
A very good article.....
https://insideflyer.co.uk/2019/08/ho...rways-edition/
https://insideflyer.co.uk/2019/08/ho...rways-edition/
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 387
Likes: 1
From: Centre of Universe
wiggy's comment that BA Short Haul "went almost fully EASA" is a worry. The trashing of the UK's CAA FTLs (Flight Time Limitations) in favour of EASA's FTLs (Fatigue Target Limitations?) was probably the biggest act of vandalism against flight safety in Britain. I am so glad that my "extended recovery rest period" ('EASA-speak' for 'Days Off') is always many multiples of the EASA 'target' minimum. 'Going almost fully EASA' on FTLs would have been a hugely detrimental change to Ts&Cs. I am almost starting to understand the strike...
So what 3 years into EASA FTL you need to come up with some examples of "the biggest act of vandalism of Flight Safety in Britain" or is it just perception???
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 90
Likes: 0
From: WILTSHIRE
I hear the phrase " at war with the management" more and more, which seems really to be the cause of the strike. I dont actually think its about money. It is about how you are treated by your manager. I have only witnessed the short haul middle management and I truly believe that after five other airlines, they are the most bigoted, incompetent, egotistical, uncommunicative, even spiteful people I have ever had this misfortune to meet or fly with. One is ex BMI. I truly wish them there comeuppance (sp ?) . I sincerely hope that the inevitable fall of the slippery ladder is a long one
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: Home
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
From: UK
Three year freeze on staff travel for strikers (except if you commute, of course). Which is fine because it will take this long before standards improve enough on BA for my family to accept it as a realistic option for our holidays.
Joined: Apr 2018
Posts: 23
Likes: 0
From: UK
As you say hopefully it’ll get thrown back in.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 465
Likes: 0
From: Finland
Been there about 23? years ago when, I think, Danair pilots were joining us and BA wanted to introduce a different pay scale at LGW.
Management, and the press, painted the same picture as now - "it is all about greedy, overpaid pilots wanting more pay".
We, as BA pilots, were due to strike the next day or as soon as one returned to base.
Usual threats re staff travel.
I was nightstopping in CPH.
The strike was called off the night before when management decided to settle - I was called by BALPA in the hotel in the evening.
It, sadly, will go to the brink as that is all this kind of management understand.
Perhaps it is what they teach them on their MBAs and Harvard courses.
Good luck and don't give in.
Management, and the press, painted the same picture as now - "it is all about greedy, overpaid pilots wanting more pay".
We, as BA pilots, were due to strike the next day or as soon as one returned to base.
Usual threats re staff travel.
I was nightstopping in CPH.
The strike was called off the night before when management decided to settle - I was called by BALPA in the hotel in the evening.
It, sadly, will go to the brink as that is all this kind of management understand.
Perhaps it is what they teach them on their MBAs and Harvard courses.
Good luck and don't give in.