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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 26th Feb 2018, 13:00
  #4561 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Right here
Posts: 23
To clarify some points that were raised;

- Yes I did bid for shorthaul command every year from day one; all I got was Equipment Freeze.
- Treated with respect and professionalism at BA? All new joiners are made to wear two stripes for four years as a junior FO regardless of prior experience. A380 FO’s aren’t even trusted to land the aircraft for the first several months.
- Industry leading Pension? I would have had to retire at 65 on £8000,- per year annuity. And that’s with maximum contributions into BARP 2.0
- BA wants JSS over Bidline; that’s all you need to know.
- 3 to 4 trips on LH per month? More like 5 or 6; the only change when you have a week’s leave is that the same number of trips are scheduled closer together.
- Final salary of plus £200k? Not according to the 34 year pay scale that the majority of DEP’s will never reach the top of. It’s more like £168k (excl flight pay), if you are still full time that is after 33 years of doing 900hrs p/a.
- Planning your life with a fixed roster? How about doing 21 day reserve periods several times per year...
- And dare I mention; most of these decreases in T&C’s were voted in by senior ‘colleagues’. Secure in the knowledge they would never be applied to them; just the new joiners. Welcome to BARP I guess…

I could go on of course, but fear to damage the delicate sensibilities of those who’s only justification seems to be that they’ve had it worse somewhere else before... What can I say, I’ve had it better.
Doppio is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 13:13
  #4562 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: The lovely Norfolk countryside
Posts: 4
Slight redirect,

Does anyone know if BA will ever run another Managed Path recruitment push?

Did the last managed path recruitment program produce the results BA were expecting?
HelloD is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 13:14
  #4563 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Unknown
Posts: 45
Not even allowed to land the A380 for several months as an FO? Why? What about of you have had previous A380 experience.
Club World is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 13:15
  #4564 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Surrey
Posts: 10
[QUOTE=Doppio;10065671]To clarify some points that were raised;

“ All new joiners are made to wear two stripes for four years as a junior FO regardless of prior experience.”

I actually agree with that, what’s the point in giving every FO at the likes of Ryanair 3 stripes when they get 1500 hours? Pointless and defeats the object!


“ A380 FO’s aren’t even trusted to land the aircraft for the first several months. “

There was very good reason for this, 12 aircraft, 20DEP’s?! There would have been a lot of people going out of recency if these were all trained at the same time!

“ 3 to 4 trips on LH per month? More like 5 or 6; the only change when you have a week’s leave is that the same number of trips are scheduled closer together.”

Iv never done more that 4 trips, and when I have iv bid for it to build bank or picked up an overtime trip!
rustynut is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 13:40
  #4565 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: London
Posts: 22
Is there any truth in the rumour that BA are seriously short of pilot numbers?

A rumour puts this in the low to middling hundreds.

That’s quite a gap - if true.
Job Knockey is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 14:06
  #4566 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Fiji
Posts: 65
well, just read they want to flood the market with an additional 6,8% seats. So yeah I think every carrier in Europe is struggling getting Pilots. The two big bankruptcys have started the rollercoaster of Pilots. everybody tries to push into that market and we will have a capacity of 120% compared to that one Summer 2017. people sign, do the conversion course, and then leave for the next better option. this year is going to be the hell for HR and recruiting and especially the training departments. having people in the conversion, simulators blocked, and on line training and then left with 2-4 weeks notice period eats up all training capacity.
gnarlberg is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 15:45
  #4567 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,310
Just picking up on this:

All new joiners are made to wear two stripes for four years as a junior FO regardless of prior experience.
That’s a fair point...the two rings has always led to certain incorrect and sometimes unfortunate assumptions being made by some both in the air and on the ground...I certainly think there is a case to be made for experienced new joiners to have three rings....though you’ll never get the company to agree to pay SFO rate from day one though.


A380 FO’s aren’t even trusted to land the aircraft for the first several months.
Um...I’ll admit I haven’t heard that was the case and am a bit suprised...then again that is the fleet that didn’t even trust highly highly experienced Long Haul Boeing pilots to transfer directly to the aircraft for the first year or two......

And dare I mention; most of these decreases in T&C’s were voted in by senior ‘colleagues’. Secure in the knowledge they would never be applied to them; just the new joiners. Welcome to BARP I guess…
I can promise you not all “senior colleagues” buy into the BALPA line...and the demography of the JSS vote would be interesting to see.

Last edited by wiggy; 26th Feb 2018 at 16:06.
wiggy is online now  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 15:59
  #4568 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: somewhere between Miami and Havana
Posts: 110
There wasn't enough training capacity to run everyone through complete 380 conversions so some were selected to do just enough of the course to fly as cruise pilots. As soon as there was space in the training dept to complete the conversions, it was situation normal.

One of these cruise only pilots was so senior he's now since retired. It was nothing to do with trust.

I'm not defending BA, far from it. There's not a lot I disagree with from Doppio's post.

Yeah, we are a bit special. Not like 'good' special, more like a fleet full of window lickers...
Buter is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 16:09
  #4569 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,310
Ah, thanks.

FWIW BA had two and three ringers flying as temporary cruise pilots, and briefly cruise only lines, on the 744 twenty plus years back so it is not a new thing or necessarily a case of penalising the junior....
wiggy is online now  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 16:19
  #4570 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Home
Posts: 875
Wiggy
A380 F/O Landings
A Relative of mine joined a year or so ago as a DEP direct onto the A380. There is no ban on new F/Os landing the aircraft. The problem was the BA lack of Trainers to do the required down route 6 landings.
The large recent LH DEP recruitment simply overpowered the Training section.
So a month or three as a "Cruise only " while you waited in turn.Worked out well in fact, as you ended up having visited most destinations before your training sectors.

Much better than many Asian carriers, for example Qantas, where you can sit for years as an S/O on 747/A380/787 and never land it.

Last edited by cessnapete; 26th Feb 2018 at 18:44.
cessnapete is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 16:59
  #4571 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: London
Age: 40
Posts: 111
Originally Posted by Doppio View Post
To clarify some points that were raised;

- Treated with respect and professionalism at BA? All new joiners are made to wear two stripes for four years as a junior FO regardless of prior experience.
Please say you forgot to add the wink smiley to this sentence and weren't serious?

If you were serious you might want to give global lifeline a ring for some counseling!
Jumbo2 is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 17:00
  #4572 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Near the surface
Posts: 26
On their website BA states hiring 'Forces pilots'. Does anyone has information on that specific path? Possible openings soon?
breakdip is online now  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 17:03
  #4573 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Sunnydale
Posts: 118
I can't believe that people get hung up on stripes.

Surely what's in your bank balance et the end of the month and how you get to spend your life is significantly more important to how many stripes you have?
back to Boeing is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 17:27
  #4574 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,310
I can't believe that people get hung up on stripes.
Spend some time loitering in the right place in CRC wearing civvies and you’ll probably appreciate the problem.....of course any day now management will sort this out.
wiggy is online now  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 17:30
  #4575 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Age: 78
Posts: 3,671
I quite agree. I never wore three stripes. I went straight from two stripes to four stripes in just over a year on the DC-10 and never wore less than four stripes for the next 30-odd years.

Forget about stripes and concentrate on what goes into your bank.
JW411 is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 17:34
  #4576 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: England
Posts: 30
Very interested to know more information on the Forces pilot question...
banterbus is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 17:40
  #4577 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,310
I’ll leave it with this: I’ve had to sort out a couple of issues out in the last few months where there has been an assumption made by some on board that two rings meant straight out of flying school. The irony of it was in both cases the problem makers themselves had only been in the company 5 minutes.........
wiggy is online now  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 18:35
  #4578 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Room 506
Posts: 66
I quite like my two stripes. Peoples expectations are automatically lowered, and I usually don't disappoint
Tricia Takanawa is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 18:51
  #4579 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: London
Posts: 91
Originally Posted by Doppio View Post
To clarify some points that were raised;

- Yes I did bid for shorthaul command every year from day one; all I got was Equipment Freeze.
- Treated with respect and professionalism at BA? All new joiners are made to wear two stripes for four years as a junior FO regardless of prior experience. A380 FO’s aren’t even trusted to land the aircraft for the first several months.
- Industry leading Pension? I would have had to retire at 65 on £8000,- per year annuity. And that’s with maximum contributions into BARP 2.0
- BA wants JSS over Bidline; that’s all you need to know.
- 3 to 4 trips on LH per month? More like 5 or 6; the only change when you have a week’s leave is that the same number of trips are scheduled closer together.
- Final salary of plus £200k? Not according to the 34 year pay scale that the majority of DEP’s will never reach the top of. It’s more like £168k (excl flight pay), if you are still full time that is after 33 years of doing 900hrs p/a.
- Planning your life with a fixed roster? How about doing 21 day reserve periods several times per year...
- And dare I mention; most of these decreases in T&C’s were voted in by senior ‘colleagues’. Secure in the knowledge they would never be applied to them; just the new joiners. Welcome to BARP I guess…

I could go on of course, but fear to damage the delicate sensibilities of those who’s only justification seems to be that they’ve had it worse somewhere else before... What can I say, I’ve had it better.
No delicate sensibilities damaged here although some of your points do require challenging with some facts. Where I agree with you I'm not shy about stating it.

1. It's been said in posts above but who on earth cares how many stripes you have. We're all adults here, you would hope, and if someone treats you differently because you have 2 stripes then tell them to poke off! They are clearly idiots. I'm assuming that is your problem, and not the physical absence of a third stripe. For if that is your problem I fear you may be beyond help...

2. Your point about A380 Fo's not being able to land is misleading. It was a training capacity issue, not a trust issue as has already been pointed out.

3. I share your scepticism over JSS but ultimately until it comes in, no one definitively knows what its going to be like. We're all speculating. I do, however, mourn the loss of bidline like many of my colleagues.

4. It's uncommon to do 5 long haul trips a month, certainly on my fleet. It's only happened to me once. Ive never done 6, and I've never done more than 3 on a month when I've had leave. Next month on a blind line with leave I have 2 trips.

5. I agree the 34 point pay scale sucks and it must be one of the main reasons that people think twice before signing on the line.

6. You might do 3 reserve periods a year to begin with. But that won't go on forever. If you are a long haul DEP it will go on longer than short haul, and that is one of the main advantages of taking a short haul DEP job - a more rapidly advancing "on fleet" seniority. The first couple of years aren't great for reserve and you'll probably do it over Christmas at least once. I didn't do a single reserve for my last two years on the airbus. I've done 1 reserve since I went to long haul 18 months ago.

7. The pensions changes are well documented elsewhere, but it's disingenuous to infer, as your post reads to me, that BARP is some recent development. NAPS closed to new joiners a LONG time ago now, much as MANY final salary schemes at other companies did. The new BARP is an improvement on what has been offered for many years now. Quoting annuity rates is a waste of time. You'd have to be nuts to buy an annuity today.

I'm glad you're happy at Ryanair and I do think the decision about whether to leave a loco command to join BA has become much more balanced in recent years. You can't escape the reality though, and please don't gloss over it, that Ryanair is hardly a happy place to work for many of it's "employees" (self employed, contractors, delete as appropriate). Sure, you get paid more as a Ryanair Captain than as a BA DEP. Shock horror. I would question whether Ryanair is a particularly good employer compared to BA when you look beyond the financial side of things. That's borne out by the statistics in terms of the sheer volume of resignations from Ryanair over a typical year versus resignations from BA. I don't need to be BA's biggest cheerleader to point that out either.

Ultimately BA is far from perfect. Financially you will be better off taking a command at RYR or EZY, no contest. If you're reading this and that is what motivates you then forget BA. Lets not pretend though that doing so is without its downsides. It's a lifetime of multiple sector, high intensity short haul flying with all the stresses that come along with that. Working for a company, in Ryanair's case, who don't even try to hide their contempt for the pilot workforce.

I won't apologise for making the case for working for BA. There's plenty wrong with it, but it's still the best flying job I've ever had and when I'm cycling down the beach or sat by the pool with a cold beer my previous loco job seems a MILLION miles away. Oh and by the way, I'll happily join the picket line to protect our terms and conditions, just as soon as we are given the chance.
Northern Monkey is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 19:43
  #4580 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Surrey
Posts: 10
Well said NM.

Finally some balanced truth!
rustynut is offline  

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