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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 25th Feb 2018, 11:58
  #4541 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Earth
Posts: 36
I was unfortunately unsuccessful during the BA assessment so looking from outside in, however nearly all my mates have jumped ship to BA and I can honestly say none of them have regretted their move to BA LH (on 747 & 787). If I had the oppertunity to join BA, Iíd jump at the chance. Yes itís not what it use to be but nowhere is these days.
Pilot2/b is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2018, 13:24
  #4542 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2003
Location: up there some where!
Posts: 72
BA is my third airline, having flown both charter and in the ME.

T&Cís are still significantly better than many other places. And remain competitive if you compare new joiners with new joiners. Bidding and swapping without having to speak to current ops(crewing) is something you would struggle to find elsewhere.
Professionalism and being treated as an adult is something that my old colleagues, in especially the ME, would be green of envy over.

The new pension is very generous compared to many other professions and airlines. Could it be better? Of course, we are all jealous of our older colleagues who have enjoyed the good times with a retirement age of 55. But at least we have time on our hand
But you will struggle to find a much better pension elsewhere, especially in the UK.

The ability to change fleet every 5 years (for now) is unbelievable generous, and if it was my airline, I too would be looking to change it... but hopefully they wonít :-/

Our hotels down route are great, although I find that the time down route on SH is getting shorter...


The pay the first many years is not brilliant considering the cost of living, especially now that most people find it hard to have a home life on full time and therefore feel the need to go part time, especially if on SH.

London is hugely expensive, a VERY quick search in the internet suggested that it is 33% more expensive to live in London compared to Manchester. So you either suffer financially living in the SE or you try to commute, something that is now frowned upon and increasingly difficult. Not to mentioned the cost both financially and to your work life balance.

BA is by far the most lonely airline I have ever worked at. You will meet great people everyday, but you will not truly get to know anybody. And when flying with a familiar face, you have to start from the beginning as you will struggle to remember their story. You will also find it difficult to know who your manager is and they would most certainly not know much about you.

I too get jealous when I read about American or Delta and their massive pay packages and bonuses. And I wonder if we are underpaid. But the truth is, that it is so much easier to become an airline pilot in Europe. Just remember the EasyJet program a few months ago. All the pilots were around 12! Or the news that the youngest ever female captain of 23 or something and her 19 year old fo taking an easyJet Airbus for a spin.. itís hard to do much about the decline in T&Cs when you can get fast tracked in to the left hand seat with little life and flying experience.

I am fairly happy with my job at BA but I often look around for better options and if EZY or similar were to offer some better contracts with the option of a base of choice, then I might just be tempted. Or if letís say TUI were to offer DEC at the regions as they have done before. Well then I would be very tempted.

But overall itís not bad, but I have decided to be part time and focus on life outside BA. And when I am at work I try to embrace it for what it is. Flying aeroplanes for a living, especially for BA, is not a bad way to make a living!!

Good luck to you all.
BAP is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2018, 13:31
  #4543 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 711
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
There is no doubt at all that EASA FTLs have made our jobs far more fatiguing. Long haul is all trip two days off, trip two days off, and it does not matter who you ask, everyone who has been flying long haul for any period of time finds that relentless and hugely fatiguing. I cannot comment on how EASA has altered short haul, but I am sure it is not for the better.
Whilst I agree with the general tone of your comments the fact remains that easyJet pilots are still being rostered to CAP371 thanks to the strength of their union. Yes on the day given disruption EASA limits apply but the rostering is still all done as it was prior EASA. How the BA CC let that one slide whilst even our pilot colleagues in easyJet put their foot down on it I don’t know. So to say that the grass is greener at BA coming from a loco is untrue anyway. Fatigue reporting far easier than in BA too, we don’t even have a proper system in place which is absolutely shocking.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2018, 19:15
  #4544 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 564
Not only did they let it slide Rex, they brought in the incredibly dumb alleviation that is Final Assign to replace Forced Draft. Everyone thinks it is great that Forced Draft is gone because BALPA have fed them their spin, but EASA was already going to do away with Forced Draft. You could only be met off an aircraft for a duty the following day. Most long haul duties do not allow you to work the next day under EASA, so that practice would have disappeared overnight all by itself. It would still have been possible to an extent on short haul, but given that BA would have needed to negotiate a different system for long haul, BALPA should have been able to come up with something more advantageous for all. Instead, we just had the alleviations agreed between BALPA and BA, using a system that the Chairman had put to the pilots several times and on every occasion, was told not to even consider it. Final Assign was the foot in the door to bring in JSS.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2018, 19:40
  #4545 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: London
Posts: 21
Donít even know where to begin with that post. Clearly no understanding of what Bidline originally was - it was an extraction process with the complicit understanding that pilots would cover the work with draft if necessary.

Without traditional Forced Draft due to EASA and no FA there would be no way of doing that. 50 trips uncovered on the 1st of August etc. Bidline is a 2 way street and covering the work would be impossible.

So much uninformed rubbish on here.
WhatTheDeuce is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 07:20
  #4546 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,391
Originally Posted by WhatTheDeuce View Post
So much uninformed rubbish on here.
That's a tad strong..

As an IMHO, standing by to be corrected “ point of order” under a combination of EASA and Bidline “as was” GS is correct - being met at the aircraft door and being forced drafted for a trip the following day would have been impossible on most long haul arrivals. However I’d agree there would had to have been a solution to some of the chronic problems that we saw some days...now whether that would have been an earlier end to genuine fully leaded Bidline or an earlier objective look at the establishment and pilot numbers, I guess we will never know.

Anyhow the above is irrelevant to prospect DEPs, though it might perhaps give them a glimmer of how things have changed. We/they are stuck with Roster Assign as the fix, which at least gives more notice that domestic plans might be compromised, until JSS kicks Bidlinelite into touch.

BTW how you guys doing with your GIAs?...Did somebody at head office forget the TA in NUTA?

Last edited by wiggy; 26th Feb 2018 at 07:54.
wiggy is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 07:44
  #4547 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2
To bring this back to the hold pool and calls being made, can anyone here confirm whether offers have actually gone out to people in the pool who are ntr? I'm NTR, been in the pool since May 2016 and am getting the feeling that my file is lost in some dusty corner of the office!

Any updates from people who've actually seen things moving along would be appreciated.
TSAT is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 09:10
  #4548 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Age: 54
Posts: 2,679
Now do I try and spend my bonus today or do I spend another day off doing battle with the new highly tested, superbly supported ďbenefitsĒ website....
Don't get me started! I'm surprised that it hasn't been discussed further on here.
1.4% of basic for a profit of £1.77B. Motivated? Not really.
As for the SELECT website. Amateurish at best.
TURIN is online now  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 09:43
  #4549 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK (and now rarely behind enemy lines but still enjoying foreign climes.)
Posts: 1,339
Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
As for the SELECT website. Amateurish at best.
I don't think it is even that good!
MrBernoulli is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 09:58
  #4550 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 564
Originally Posted by WhatTheDeuce View Post
Without traditional Forced Draft due to EASA and no FA there would be no way of doing that.
Yep, hence why I said
but given that BA would have needed to negotiate a different system for long haul, BALPA should have been able to come up with something more advantageous for all.
If you are so conversant with bidline rules and their origins, you will also know that the intent of forced draft was that it be used infrequently, to cover unforseen circumstances. (As you say, the system would break down without it). However, BA were using it for very predictable uncovered work, and each time an agreement to solve it was reached, BA just reduced pilot numbers still further. Now I agree, something needed to be done, but the solution we have ended up with is a poor effort. Will BA still operate with as few pilots as possible under JSS? Of course they will. I note you have said earlier you are a pp5 Captain. It will be interesting to read how you feel about JSS when you are obtaining one or two choices you wanted during Winter months, but having them all optimised away during the Summer months. I expect it will be better than your previous outfit though, so perhaps you will be happy enough. Bring on the next reduction in T’s and C’s please BA because the majority of your fresh new workforce have come from worse places and are perfectly happy for you to keep on going.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 10:43
  #4551 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 680
Point of Order if I may?

BA wanted rid of Bidline.

BA wanted rid of Bidline because they couldn’t build CAP achieving Blindlines from the rubbish left over, after Tripline holders, (and T0 bidders!) had taken their picks. Inability to work the most junior pilots to CAP, resulted in two problems: Firstly BA had to employ ‘additional’ pilots to support Bidline. Secondly, work was left over (uncovered) after rosters were issued.

Despite the problem being highlighted countless times by BALPA, BA pilots played into BA’s hands by refusing or avoiding draft at the a/c side. Many of us are aware of the ‘extreme lengths’ some colleagues went to, to avoid meeting a manager after landing!

BA have successfully negotiated a solution to the problem of work coverage, by introducing JSS. (A system that will ensure all pilots can work to CAP. Their contractually agreed workload!) BA pilots voted in favour of this solution!

The current system of Final Assign, is merely ‘life support’ to allow Bidline to continue in Intensive Care until it draws it’s last breath. Nobody can now avoid it by claiming too short notice. Nobody can now avoid it by running from managers in terminals wearing fancy dress!

Any company should reasonably expect it’s workforce to be able to ‘produce’ it’s contracted hours. Saying BA employed too few pilots at the time, may well be partly correct. But BA could always demonstrate they had sufficient pilots if the work was distributed evenly amongst them. Individual preferences for some, simply allowed Bidline to prevent that from happening. When BA PILOTS withdrew their support for the system. What were BA supposed to do?

JSS will put total control of roster satisfaction, in the hands of those controlling establishment! BA pilots’ bidding and behaviour demanded that. BA pilots voted for it.


All Devil’s Advocate obviously!
4468 is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 10:44
  #4552 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Moscow Hotel
Posts: 16
But you will struggle to find a much better pension elsewhere, especially in the UK.
I believe an other IAG carrier to the west of the UK has a defined benefit scheme where the employee contributes 11% and the company contributes 21%.
PorridgeStirrer is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 11:04
  #4553 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by Doppio View Post
Just for information; I've recently left BA to take a command at Ryanair. Spent several years as a Longhaul DEP but it's going nowhere; BA went from a Legacy carrier to a Longhaul LoCo in the space of several years... And I figured if I'm going to work for a LoCo I might as well work for one that pays more than BA.
It's sad but there you have it.
All of the former reasons for joining are no longer there; bidline, pension, 24 point payscale, early shorthaul command, early retirement and working less than 850hrs per year... And Alex Cruz isn't done yet; not by a long shot. All that's left now is prestige, I tried paying for my groceries the other day with that, but they wouldn't take it.
Obviously make your own decison, but I've made mine; I'm out.
Well you could have had an early short haul command couldn’t you.
EF1S is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 11:14
  #4554 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,391
If you are so conversant with bidline rules and their origins,

FWIW in my "office" I have an unamended paper copy of Bidline rules from 2010.... In the loft somewhere I've actually got my set from around '90 and looking at that really would make eyes water...every time I hear someone say we are still working to Bidline I have to "box the chimp".
wiggy is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 11:15
  #4555 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: The lovely Norfolk countryside
Posts: 4
Smile BA Managed Path

Hey all, anyone know:

If the last round of BA managed path a success? Did BA get what they thought they were getting...?

Are BA planning on running another managed path campaign?

Hope somebody out there is in the know!
HelloD is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 11:26
  #4556 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London
Posts: 236

Hang on, it was not the “fresh new” workforce that VOTED to get rid of PP24, Bidline, Fixed pay or NAPS! Stop voting yes to things and maybe the T and Cs will stop reducing!
Enzo999 is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 11:52
  #4557 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 564
100% agree we need to stop voting yes to things. I have only once voted the way BALPA recommended but I am one of the minority.
GS-Alpha is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 12:13
  #4558 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: pluto
Posts: 167
They could have solved the whole lot by upping the overtime rate.

(for info x1.25).
blimey is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 12:22
  #4559 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Straight Outta Compton
Posts: 18
Enzo999 beat me to it. It's monumentally ironic to hear to people complain that DEPs ruined it all by first working for LoCos, then being happy with their lot at BA, when the majority of those people voted for the 34 year Pay Point, BARP, etc

As a matter of fact, the current EZY membership could give the BA membership a few lessons in standing up to the company. The EZY FRMS is rock solid compared to BA's. And the recent agreement to get rid of the infamous Flexicrew contract was a major union achievement. And let's not forget the resolve it must have taken to get union recognition at Ryanair.
followthegreens is offline  
Old 26th Feb 2018, 14:00
  #4560 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Right here
Posts: 25
To clarify some points that were raised;

- Yes I did bid for shorthaul command every year from day one; all I got was Equipment Freeze.
- Treated with respect and professionalism at BA? All new joiners are made to wear two stripes for four years as a junior FO regardless of prior experience. A380 FO’s aren’t even trusted to land the aircraft for the first several months.
- Industry leading Pension? I would have had to retire at 65 on £8000,- per year annuity. And that’s with maximum contributions into BARP 2.0
- BA wants JSS over Bidline; that’s all you need to know.
- 3 to 4 trips on LH per month? More like 5 or 6; the only change when you have a week’s leave is that the same number of trips are scheduled closer together.
- Final salary of plus £200k? Not according to the 34 year pay scale that the majority of DEP’s will never reach the top of. It’s more like £168k (excl flight pay), if you are still full time that is after 33 years of doing 900hrs p/a.
- Planning your life with a fixed roster? How about doing 21 day reserve periods several times per year...
- And dare I mention; most of these decreases in T&C’s were voted in by senior ‘colleagues’. Secure in the knowledge they would never be applied to them; just the new joiners. Welcome to BARP I guess…

I could go on of course, but fear to damage the delicate sensibilities of those who’s only justification seems to be that they’ve had it worse somewhere else before... What can I say, I’ve had it better.
Doppio is offline  

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