BA Direct Entry Pilot.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 156
Likes: 1
From: London
To echo Doppio above, I too rejoined Ryanair as a Capt last year having done a stint as a longhaul DEP at BA.
It’s not just about the money at all but I’m earning 60% more in net salary now I’m back at Ryanair, with only a v.small difference in company pension contributions. Time to command longhaul would have been 17 to 20 years. Bidline didn’t work for me as a pilot at the bottom of the seniority list and I hated night flying. I have more days at home per month now than I did at BA and my quality of life and bank balance is much healthier.
Many of those I joined BA with think along similar lines and I know of a couple of who have gone back to their previous employers.
Having said that, for some joining BA (longhaul) has been like winning the lottery. It’s still a good job but it all depends what your other options in life / career are. Be careful giving up an easy, well paid life elsewhere to have the ‘prestige’ of a British flag on the tail of your aircraft.
It’s not just about the money at all but I’m earning 60% more in net salary now I’m back at Ryanair, with only a v.small difference in company pension contributions. Time to command longhaul would have been 17 to 20 years. Bidline didn’t work for me as a pilot at the bottom of the seniority list and I hated night flying. I have more days at home per month now than I did at BA and my quality of life and bank balance is much healthier.
Many of those I joined BA with think along similar lines and I know of a couple of who have gone back to their previous employers.
Having said that, for some joining BA (longhaul) has been like winning the lottery. It’s still a good job but it all depends what your other options in life / career are. Be careful giving up an easy, well paid life elsewhere to have the ‘prestige’ of a British flag on the tail of your aircraft.
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 19
Likes: 2
From: London
I also left BA as a DEP to return to my former loco outfit. Should never have left in the first place. It taught me a valuable lesson not to give up a command chasing the apparent prestige of flying for one’s flag carrier.
Not that it’s a bad job at all. For some it’s fantastic I imagine, but most on my intake are hugely questioning whether to stay or go back.
Good luck to those in the pool though if that’s what you really want.
Not that it’s a bad job at all. For some it’s fantastic I imagine, but most on my intake are hugely questioning whether to stay or go back.
Good luck to those in the pool though if that’s what you really want.
Joined: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,226
Likes: 114
From: UK
TTR you gave an answer but I don’t understand it. BA’s ‘prestige’ you refer isn’t you simplying saying that they offer you a job near where you live is it?
For me to join BA I’d have to drive further to work than I do now- would you call a decision for me to go to BA from RYR less prestigious because of that?
Plenty to of people (the majority I’d say) work at LoCo’s live close to their home base. Additionally there are people in BA who commute in from abroad- I’m not sure location of your base in relation to your house is what makes the airline itself prestigious or not...
For me to join BA I’d have to drive further to work than I do now- would you call a decision for me to go to BA from RYR less prestigious because of that?
Plenty to of people (the majority I’d say) work at LoCo’s live close to their home base. Additionally there are people in BA who commute in from abroad- I’m not sure location of your base in relation to your house is what makes the airline itself prestigious or not...
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,729
Likes: 104
From: The Winchester
But if Long Haul is the aspiration, or you buy into the prestige (yes, it’s easy to sniff at it, but it is our nations flag carrier, and that does count for something) then it’s a harder decision.
Is there a general assumption by those here in the know that aspirational bidding for fleet/seat movement will still be existence at BA in anything like it's current form in, say, 5-6 years time...
Retires to safe distance.
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 473
Likes: 0
From: Uk
Facoff
I did not know early or late commands existed. In answer to your question I was granted my bid when my seniority allowed the opportunity to undertake a command course. I am junior on the status but not in time served. The simple truth is BA pays less and rostering is pretty poor at the bottom. There are some benefits of course and if I did not value them I would consider a different fleet and status or a different airline. Would I join from a command position or close to it from RYR or EZY? I would struggle to recommend it, but I would happily say BA is a good employer.
Just out of interest, were you one of the few who took an early command?
Joined: Sep 2008
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 940
Likes: 57
From: Scotland
For those long haul DEPs who left to return to previous employers, what fleets were you on? I believe junior life on the Jumbo is pretty rubbish and has left a few friends of mine a bit disillusioned. Similarly, DEP Airbus.
Conversely, the 777 and to an extent the 787 offer a pretty good lifestyle wherever you are on the status list.
Conversely, the 777 and to an extent the 787 offer a pretty good lifestyle wherever you are on the status list.
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 6,729
Likes: 104
From: The Winchester
The following really is just my opinion but:
1.I don't see any reason for the cost cutting to stop,
2. The amount of low hanging fruit on the Flight Ops tree is reducing and the whole Aspirational Bid/PRIAM process in it's current form is still hanging there..
..and
3.BALPA is very fond of hinting the next big issue is the line in the sand...
With all that in mind I certainly think in the near future it is almost inevitable that the company are going to try to reduce aspirational options and conversion frequencies - the Aspirational Bidding agreement will come under the sort of pressure that Bidline suffered...
Worse still if ( big "if" I know ) the current rumour turn out to be true and training gets outsourced to an external company then there really will be pressure to minimise conversions.
As it stands at the moment I don't think people will inevitably get stuck on the fleet they join on but I can see the company really pushing hard in the near future to reduce/restrict seat and fleet changes across a career.
1.I don't see any reason for the cost cutting to stop,
2. The amount of low hanging fruit on the Flight Ops tree is reducing and the whole Aspirational Bid/PRIAM process in it's current form is still hanging there..
..and
3.BALPA is very fond of hinting the next big issue is the line in the sand...
With all that in mind I certainly think in the near future it is almost inevitable that the company are going to try to reduce aspirational options and conversion frequencies - the Aspirational Bidding agreement will come under the sort of pressure that Bidline suffered...
Worse still if ( big "if" I know ) the current rumour turn out to be true and training gets outsourced to an external company then there really will be pressure to minimise conversions.
As it stands at the moment I don't think people will inevitably get stuck on the fleet they join on but I can see the company really pushing hard in the near future to reduce/restrict seat and fleet changes across a career.
Last edited by wiggy; 24th February 2018 at 15:31.
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 38
Likes: 0
From: UK
I was DEP 747...lasted just over 2 years and called it a day! Tough decision and BA was a good employer but for those chasing LH go in with your eyes open and prepare to feel like you have mild permanent Flu the tiredness is a constant battle!!
From my short time at BA Cruz will cut costs where he can ...he must surely be asking what value is there to BA for a pilot on one LH aircraft bidding to go and fly another one just because they fancy something different!?
Good luck to all in the pool for many I’m sure it’ll be a good move just have your eyes open. If I was command with a Loco or close to it I’d not even consider BA unless you have to do LH to tick that box.
From my short time at BA Cruz will cut costs where he can ...he must surely be asking what value is there to BA for a pilot on one LH aircraft bidding to go and fly another one just because they fancy something different!?
Good luck to all in the pool for many I’m sure it’ll be a good move just have your eyes open. If I was command with a Loco or close to it I’d not even consider BA unless you have to do LH to tick that box.
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 724
Likes: 24
From: UK
Is there a general assumption by those here in the know that aspirational bidding for fleet/seat movement will still be existence at BA in anything like it's current form in, say, 5-6 years time...
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 3,832
Likes: 115
From: UK
I am just totally fascinated by the fact that some BA pilots fly "for the prestige".
What "prestige"?
Reminds me of one of my old F/Es who got two letters of thanks in one month from the MD (who was a billionaire) thanking him for saving the company money.
He wrote a letter to the MD saying "Dear George, Keep sending the "thank you" letters. For God's sake don't send me any money. My bank manager just loves your letters".
What "prestige"?
Reminds me of one of my old F/Es who got two letters of thanks in one month from the MD (who was a billionaire) thanking him for saving the company money.
He wrote a letter to the MD saying "Dear George, Keep sending the "thank you" letters. For God's sake don't send me any money. My bank manager just loves your letters".
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 34
Likes: 0
From: United Kingdom
To add a little balance to the negativity that seems to be in abundance on pprune.....
Yes things are changing, but let’s try and see the wood for the trees -
1. The pension has just improved by 3% for new joiners and is arguably as good if not better than anywhere else. As an example, the total contribution is 50% higher than easyjet (my previous employer)
2. Yes, bidline as a bidding function has gone, but it has been replaced by a powerful new system which remains better than any other system I know of in any other airline.
3. The hundreds of pages long Bidline agreement (Bidline Rules) which is essentially our rostering agreement, is largely untouched as a result of the new bidding system arriving. It is this set of rules that makes our life relatively easy at BA compared with previous companies I’ve worked for.
4. Once the rosters are published they are set in stone. This is a massive plus from a lifestyle perspective and can not be said of too many other companies.
5. Despite the rumours, we still can bid to move fleets. Aren’t we trained to make decisions on facts rather than speculation? Besides, even if the rumours do come true to some extent, BA still needs someone to fly all of the aircraft types we have. Movement might slow down, but it logically can’t stop....
6. If money is what matters to you, pay might be lower at first, but across a career it isn’t far away from the LoCos.
7. We still get off the aircraft and have time to explore the places we visit all over the world. Personally, I can’t put a price on the incredible experiences I’ve had on company time. It’s a huge privilege.
8. At Heathrow on short haul, we start work a good hour later on average than LoCos do, and rarely finish beyond 10.30pm. We also seldom do 4 sector days. Compared to LoCo or Charter flying it doesn’t take a sleep scientist or a doctor to demonstrate the positive impact this has on health, longevity, mood and happiness.
9. For the most part we stay in nice hotels in city centres, so we can easily enjoy our destinations. Rumours are always that this will change. However, for those without selective hearing there are strong counter arguments to this, and anyway which wise man ever made choices based on rumours?
10. Staff travel, despite its foibles, allows us to take our families on great holidays all over the world for a fraction of the cost, often in premium cabins.
11. As for the prestige, I guess that’s personal. However, rightly or wrongly the public perception is that BA has the best pilots. I personally don’t agree, but that’s not the point. We are all human beings and so if someone is impressed by the fact you work at the perceived “best company” it’s hard not to feel at least a little bit good about it.
I know some people will try to pick holes in the above arguments with nuanced, cherry picked and speculative pointers. I just want to show potential joiners the positives to go alongside the negatives which are so prolifically stated and, dare I say, often exaggerated on this forum.
Good luck to all who are considering their options.
Yes things are changing, but let’s try and see the wood for the trees -
1. The pension has just improved by 3% for new joiners and is arguably as good if not better than anywhere else. As an example, the total contribution is 50% higher than easyjet (my previous employer)
2. Yes, bidline as a bidding function has gone, but it has been replaced by a powerful new system which remains better than any other system I know of in any other airline.
3. The hundreds of pages long Bidline agreement (Bidline Rules) which is essentially our rostering agreement, is largely untouched as a result of the new bidding system arriving. It is this set of rules that makes our life relatively easy at BA compared with previous companies I’ve worked for.
4. Once the rosters are published they are set in stone. This is a massive plus from a lifestyle perspective and can not be said of too many other companies.
5. Despite the rumours, we still can bid to move fleets. Aren’t we trained to make decisions on facts rather than speculation? Besides, even if the rumours do come true to some extent, BA still needs someone to fly all of the aircraft types we have. Movement might slow down, but it logically can’t stop....
6. If money is what matters to you, pay might be lower at first, but across a career it isn’t far away from the LoCos.
7. We still get off the aircraft and have time to explore the places we visit all over the world. Personally, I can’t put a price on the incredible experiences I’ve had on company time. It’s a huge privilege.
8. At Heathrow on short haul, we start work a good hour later on average than LoCos do, and rarely finish beyond 10.30pm. We also seldom do 4 sector days. Compared to LoCo or Charter flying it doesn’t take a sleep scientist or a doctor to demonstrate the positive impact this has on health, longevity, mood and happiness.
9. For the most part we stay in nice hotels in city centres, so we can easily enjoy our destinations. Rumours are always that this will change. However, for those without selective hearing there are strong counter arguments to this, and anyway which wise man ever made choices based on rumours?
10. Staff travel, despite its foibles, allows us to take our families on great holidays all over the world for a fraction of the cost, often in premium cabins.
11. As for the prestige, I guess that’s personal. However, rightly or wrongly the public perception is that BA has the best pilots. I personally don’t agree, but that’s not the point. We are all human beings and so if someone is impressed by the fact you work at the perceived “best company” it’s hard not to feel at least a little bit good about it.
I know some people will try to pick holes in the above arguments with nuanced, cherry picked and speculative pointers. I just want to show potential joiners the positives to go alongside the negatives which are so prolifically stated and, dare I say, often exaggerated on this forum.
Good luck to all who are considering their options.
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 238
Likes: 0
From: London
To add a little balance to the negativity that seems to be in abundance on pprune.....
Yes things are changing, but let’s try and see the wood for the trees -
1. The pension has just improved by 3% for new joiners and is arguably as good if not better than anywhere else. As an example, the total contribution is 50% higher than easyjet (my previous employer)
2. Yes, bidline as a bidding function has gone, but it has been replaced by a powerful new system which remains better than any other system I know of in any other airline.
3. The hundreds of pages long Bidline agreement (Bidline Rules) which is essentially our rostering agreement, is largely untouched as a result of the new bidding system arriving. It is this set of rules that makes our life relatively easy at BA compared with previous companies I’ve worked for.
4. Once the rosters are published they are set in stone. This is a massive plus from a lifestyle perspective and can not be said of too many other companies.
5. Despite the rumours, we still can bid to move fleets. Aren’t we trained to make decisions on facts rather than speculation? Besides, even if the rumours do come true to some extent, BA still needs someone to fly all of the aircraft types we have. Movement might slow down, but it logically can’t stop....
6. If money is what matters to you, pay might be lower at first, but across a career it isn’t far away from the LoCos.
7. We still get off the aircraft and have time to explore the places we visit all over the world. Personally, I can’t put a price on the incredible experiences I’ve had on company time. It’s a huge privilege.
8. At Heathrow on short haul, we start work a good hour later on average than LoCos do, and rarely finish beyond 10.30pm. We also seldom do 4 sector days. Compared to LoCo or Charter flying it doesn’t take a sleep scientist or a doctor to demonstrate the positive impact this has on health, longevity, mood and happiness.
9. For the most part we stay in nice hotels in city centres, so we can easily enjoy our destinations. Rumours are always that this will change. However, for those without selective hearing there are strong counter arguments to this, and anyway which wise man ever made choices based on rumours?
10. Staff travel, despite its foibles, allows us to take our families on great holidays all over the world for a fraction of the cost, often in premium cabins.
11. As for the prestige, I guess that’s personal. However, rightly or wrongly the public perception is that BA has the best pilots. I personally don’t agree, but that’s not the point. We are all human beings and so if someone is impressed by the fact you work at the perceived “best company” it’s hard not to feel at least a little bit good about it.
I know some people will try to pick holes in the above arguments with nuanced, cherry picked and speculative pointers. I just want to show potential joiners the positives to go alongside the negatives which are so prolifically stated and, dare I say, often exaggerated on this forum.
Good luck to all who are considering their options.
Yes things are changing, but let’s try and see the wood for the trees -
1. The pension has just improved by 3% for new joiners and is arguably as good if not better than anywhere else. As an example, the total contribution is 50% higher than easyjet (my previous employer)
2. Yes, bidline as a bidding function has gone, but it has been replaced by a powerful new system which remains better than any other system I know of in any other airline.
3. The hundreds of pages long Bidline agreement (Bidline Rules) which is essentially our rostering agreement, is largely untouched as a result of the new bidding system arriving. It is this set of rules that makes our life relatively easy at BA compared with previous companies I’ve worked for.
4. Once the rosters are published they are set in stone. This is a massive plus from a lifestyle perspective and can not be said of too many other companies.
5. Despite the rumours, we still can bid to move fleets. Aren’t we trained to make decisions on facts rather than speculation? Besides, even if the rumours do come true to some extent, BA still needs someone to fly all of the aircraft types we have. Movement might slow down, but it logically can’t stop....
6. If money is what matters to you, pay might be lower at first, but across a career it isn’t far away from the LoCos.
7. We still get off the aircraft and have time to explore the places we visit all over the world. Personally, I can’t put a price on the incredible experiences I’ve had on company time. It’s a huge privilege.
8. At Heathrow on short haul, we start work a good hour later on average than LoCos do, and rarely finish beyond 10.30pm. We also seldom do 4 sector days. Compared to LoCo or Charter flying it doesn’t take a sleep scientist or a doctor to demonstrate the positive impact this has on health, longevity, mood and happiness.
9. For the most part we stay in nice hotels in city centres, so we can easily enjoy our destinations. Rumours are always that this will change. However, for those without selective hearing there are strong counter arguments to this, and anyway which wise man ever made choices based on rumours?
10. Staff travel, despite its foibles, allows us to take our families on great holidays all over the world for a fraction of the cost, often in premium cabins.
11. As for the prestige, I guess that’s personal. However, rightly or wrongly the public perception is that BA has the best pilots. I personally don’t agree, but that’s not the point. We are all human beings and so if someone is impressed by the fact you work at the perceived “best company” it’s hard not to feel at least a little bit good about it.
I know some people will try to pick holes in the above arguments with nuanced, cherry picked and speculative pointers. I just want to show potential joiners the positives to go alongside the negatives which are so prolifically stated and, dare I say, often exaggerated on this forum.
Good luck to all who are considering their options.
I agree the lure of a quick command and instant pay day is very tempting (especially to those of us with a few miles on the clock, so to speak) but for others BA is a perfectly decent option and the endless negativity is slightly boring.
Joined: Dec 2011
Posts: 96
Likes: 0
From: London
If iphones where crap they wouldnt sell so many, my point is when recruitment opens applications come pouring in......
Also people are very quick to quote salaries at Loco airlines but the facts are that many skippers look towards part time to make it managable long term
Also people are very quick to quote salaries at Loco airlines but the facts are that many skippers look towards part time to make it managable long term
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 409
Likes: 3
From: The Home of the Gnomes
2. Yes, bidline as a bidding function has gone, but it has been replaced by a powerful new system which remains better than any other system I know of in any other airline.
There are some issues with it and it has been delayed until at least September because no-one wants to take the risk of implementing it during the summer when the schedule as it is looks a bit optimistic.
It may be that it turns out to be the best thing since sliced bread but until everyone is bidding with it simultaneously, any suggestion that it is "better than any other system" is conjecture.
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: Surrey
Well said polepilot
The negativity towards BA astounds me on this forum. If guys who have been in for 10+ years thinks the T’s+C’s at BA are as bad as you make out on here, what do you think the LoCo’s are doing....Its certainly a race to the bottom but what we have is bloody good in comparison!
Complaining about the new bidding, yes I would prefer to keep Bidline, but did I have any say over my roster at previous? NO, and did my roster stay as what was allocated, NO, it changed every single day I checked out from previous day! I know shorthaul is not everyone’s dream fleet but in 5 years average, +\- you can bid off and spend your months playing golf in South Africa, drinking Beer/eating chicken wings on West coast, and generally seeing the world on a monthly basis! This is not to mention being treated like a professional pilot, left to make decisions in the right seat which is far from the Loco I came from!
How about this feed is used to help the guys that ACTUALLY want to join BA and therefore help them to do so, rather than moan about first world problems that quite frankly are absent at most of UK Loco/airlines today!
And if we’re going to mention money, as an SFO at previous Loco(6 years), I make a lot more at BA. Albeit some overtime, again not an option at most Loco, you roster just gets changed to cover the work!
If your not convicted by joining BA, leave the guys/girls that are, the jobs that they actually want!
Lastly, the majority of my friends that work at my previous, hate every single day the alarm goes off to go to work! The company treats them badly, they work extremely hard and they get nothing more that what’s written in the basic contact they sign. The FO’s I know are probably on a combination of around 6 different contracts.
The proof is in the pudding as you can count the pilots that leave BA on one hand, that in itself says an awful lot, when Loco’s are loosing hundreds when the market starts moving!
If your keen to apply, I recommend you do so, I never looked back...
Complaining about the new bidding, yes I would prefer to keep Bidline, but did I have any say over my roster at previous? NO, and did my roster stay as what was allocated, NO, it changed every single day I checked out from previous day! I know shorthaul is not everyone’s dream fleet but in 5 years average, +\- you can bid off and spend your months playing golf in South Africa, drinking Beer/eating chicken wings on West coast, and generally seeing the world on a monthly basis! This is not to mention being treated like a professional pilot, left to make decisions in the right seat which is far from the Loco I came from!
How about this feed is used to help the guys that ACTUALLY want to join BA and therefore help them to do so, rather than moan about first world problems that quite frankly are absent at most of UK Loco/airlines today!
And if we’re going to mention money, as an SFO at previous Loco(6 years), I make a lot more at BA. Albeit some overtime, again not an option at most Loco, you roster just gets changed to cover the work!
If your not convicted by joining BA, leave the guys/girls that are, the jobs that they actually want!
Lastly, the majority of my friends that work at my previous, hate every single day the alarm goes off to go to work! The company treats them badly, they work extremely hard and they get nothing more that what’s written in the basic contact they sign. The FO’s I know are probably on a combination of around 6 different contracts.
The proof is in the pudding as you can count the pilots that leave BA on one hand, that in itself says an awful lot, when Loco’s are loosing hundreds when the market starts moving!
If your keen to apply, I recommend you do so, I never looked back...
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
From: somewhere between Miami and Havana
Rusty - just because this outfit is better than your last, don’t preach to us about how good we have it.
We’ve had our t’s and c’s destroyed over the last few years so you can politely **** off. If you think that losing bidline is no big deal then you really need to examine why you joined BA.
I kinda hope your post is just a wind up. Sadly, you probably believe what you’ve written.
We’ve had our t’s and c’s destroyed over the last few years so you can politely **** off. If you think that losing bidline is no big deal then you really need to examine why you joined BA.
I kinda hope your post is just a wind up. Sadly, you probably believe what you’ve written.