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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 25th Feb 2018, 08:01
  #4521 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by JOSHUA View Post
Quite - except I too joined BA from another airline. I however find it frightening that so many firmly believe that itís some how wrong to feel a sense of entitlement simply because, ĎIíve worked elsewhere, you have no idea how lucky you are, etcí.
EllanVannin - please explain why we shouldnít be entitled to protect some of our T&Cís? Perhaps youíll be happy nightstopping in an Ibis and only having enough money to Delsey dine?
I donít disagree. Youíre setting up a straw man argument.

Iím as peeíd off as the next guy with the company and am more than happy to strike to protect our Ts and Cs. Thatís not what the argument is here. The point we are trying to make is that life isnít as bad as a lot of the posts on this forum make it sound. Far from it.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 08:51
  #4522 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,653
I sense thereís a bit of ď well if you had ever worked anywhere else you wouldnít think like thatĒ creeping in, so just to put the record straight many of those perhaps expressing less than glowing views of BA did indeed have a life before BA...even many those regarded as institutionalised who joined 30 years back have in fact been either in the mil and/or with another airline and are very well aware of things like roster instability, poor accommodation .. and phone calls at 3 in the AM....so yes, weíve all know ďthe four Yorkshiremen

BA used to be the top U.K. gig by a country mile...yes, .it is an eye opener when you join and some of the ďperksĒ can make your eyes water if you previously done things like spending time off downroute living on a car ferry...

I think Long Haul is probably still a pretty top job, short haul...I donít know but I know those who do....but I do know the slide in T&Cs has been enormous over the last few years as the operation is steered from Madrid and I suspect that slide will continue, so those thinking in indulging need to indulge in a lot of thinking ahead.

Certainly those now looking at BA need to perform due diligence like never before ..and yes, it is indeed horses for courses...long haul DEP offered...grab it...if the offer is Shorthaul DEP and you are already well established at your current outfit...thatís a tough one...not sure Iíd jump without a lot of research.

Now do I try and spend my bonus today or do I spend another day off doing battle with the new highly tested, superbly supported ďbenefitsĒ website....

Last edited by wiggy; 25th Feb 2018 at 09:14.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 09:53
  #4523 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2014
Location: England
Posts: 30
Reading People are leaving can only be a good thing for those of us here to stay. BA is my 3rd airline having done charter & ME before, there are many things BA get wrong but also many positives too. BA certainly isnít the Ďbe all & end allí but it works for me. We are an easy target for the haters.... it is what it is. I certainly donít go for prestige.... rather the job security & 100k gross for doing 3-4 trips a month with min hassle. Those who search my prev post will see I turned down a SH command 3 years ago when we had the one opportunity to do so, that was after 6 years in the company.... I believe in 2016 if you had the hours you could of had a LHR or LGW 320 command regardless of time in the company... now weíre short AGAIN... I can see SH commands crashing down again by the end of the year. If anyone in or out of BA says it X or Y to commands etc theyíre lying as who knows? It changes daily & even BA donít know... just got to bid for what you want!

If it works for you itís a great place to be... but itís an airline & like my 2 previous itís not perfect & could be so much better for min effort.... but tell me where is..... Come in, have a laugh, go home...

People leaving is one thing..... Now if we could only get people to STOP APPLYING, then weíd be in a far stronger position!
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 10:28
  #4524 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 629
I’ve spent some time thinking about why we have had such a massive slide in BA over the past few years. BA will obviously take what they can when they can - they want to be as competitive as possible, so who can blame them? This has always been the case though, so the answer must come down to why can they take so much now?

What has changed in the last couple of years? Well for starters, we have a huge number of new DEPs who have come from other airlines, who largely share the views of the guys on this thread. “BA is way better than our previous outfits, what are you all whinging about?” Are they going to put up a fight against BA?

What else has changed? EASA and the availability of part time! There is no doubt at all that EASA FTLs have made our jobs far more fatiguing. Long haul is all trip two days off, trip two days off, and it does not matter who you ask, everyone who has been flying long haul for any period of time finds that relentless and hugely fatiguing. I cannot comment on how EASA has altered short haul, but I am sure it is not for the better. However, in almost the same time frame, it is now far easier to access part time. So the more senior guys who have a bit of spare cash have been able to remove the fatiguing changes by going part time. If you can afford 50% you are laughing. Who needs bidline when you are senior and part time? Senior JSS guys will be writing their own rosters - especially if they are part time!

Who needs a NAPS pension when you have already taken your pension out of NAPS. Who needs a NAPS pension when you are already drawing it with flexible retirement? Who needs a NAPS pension when you were recruited without one in the first place?

Then we have got BALPA. The pilots are BALPA, and yet far too many people in BA trust BALPA to such an extent that they do not even bother to read the new changes being proposed. Instead, they just vote whichever way BALPA recommends. The BALPA reps negotiate as best as they can. They put their hearts into it, and come up with their clever little ideas. They love their deals and think they have done a great job. Of course they are going to recommend it is accepted! It is kind of like a form of Stockholm syndrome. Who would invest so much time, effort and passion in something and then say it should be discarded?

The rate of deterioration in BA has therefore accelerated massively, and will not stop, until the pilots as a majority, genuinely want it to stop. The new entrants (if they weren’t Captains previously), are just happy to be here and will take anything. The senior guys have mitigated their problems by going part time, shifting their pensions or drawing them, and are ready to leave with three months notice when things get too bad, and so have given up the fight.

I have flown with far too many people who think BA is great and to be blunt, they are their own worst problem. Their LoCo outfits had low terms and conditions because they never stood up and protected them - they were just glad to have jobs. Now they are a growing majority in BA, and they are doing more of the same!

So BA’s terms and conditions are disappearing off down the drain at a scary rate, and will continue to do so because we are continuing to recruit people who are happy with their lot despite the decline. What will you end up with in a surprisingly short space of time? That is right, somewhere just like your old outfit but with nowhere to escape to this time.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 10:39
  #4525 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: London
Posts: 134
GS ALPHA probably one of the best posts I have ever read on PPRuNe !
Itís sad to see as I have many friends in BA and even they say itís getting much worse and should of stayed at easy etc...
time will tell
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 10:58
  #4526 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Earth
Posts: 49
I was unfortunately unsuccessful during the BA assessment so looking from outside in, however nearly all my mates have jumped ship to BA and I can honestly say none of them have regretted their move to BA LH (on 747 & 787). If I had the oppertunity to join BA, Iíd jump at the chance. Yes itís not what it use to be but nowhere is these days.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 12:24
  #4527 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2003
Location: up there some where!
Posts: 75
BA is my third airline, having flown both charter and in the ME.

T&Cís are still significantly better than many other places. And remain competitive if you compare new joiners with new joiners. Bidding and swapping without having to speak to current ops(crewing) is something you would struggle to find elsewhere.
Professionalism and being treated as an adult is something that my old colleagues, in especially the ME, would be green of envy over.

The new pension is very generous compared to many other professions and airlines. Could it be better? Of course, we are all jealous of our older colleagues who have enjoyed the good times with a retirement age of 55. But at least we have time on our hand
But you will struggle to find a much better pension elsewhere, especially in the UK.

The ability to change fleet every 5 years (for now) is unbelievable generous, and if it was my airline, I too would be looking to change it... but hopefully they wonít :-/

Our hotels down route are great, although I find that the time down route on SH is getting shorter...


The pay the first many years is not brilliant considering the cost of living, especially now that most people find it hard to have a home life on full time and therefore feel the need to go part time, especially if on SH.

London is hugely expensive, a VERY quick search in the internet suggested that it is 33% more expensive to live in London compared to Manchester. So you either suffer financially living in the SE or you try to commute, something that is now frowned upon and increasingly difficult. Not to mentioned the cost both financially and to your work life balance.

BA is by far the most lonely airline I have ever worked at. You will meet great people everyday, but you will not truly get to know anybody. And when flying with a familiar face, you have to start from the beginning as you will struggle to remember their story. You will also find it difficult to know who your manager is and they would most certainly not know much about you.

I too get jealous when I read about American or Delta and their massive pay packages and bonuses. And I wonder if we are underpaid. But the truth is, that it is so much easier to become an airline pilot in Europe. Just remember the EasyJet program a few months ago. All the pilots were around 12! Or the news that the youngest ever female captain of 23 or something and her 19 year old fo taking an easyJet Airbus for a spin.. itís hard to do much about the decline in T&Cs when you can get fast tracked in to the left hand seat with little life and flying experience.

I am fairly happy with my job at BA but I often look around for better options and if EZY or similar were to offer some better contracts with the option of a base of choice, then I might just be tempted. Or if letís say TUI were to offer DEC at the regions as they have done before. Well then I would be very tempted.

But overall itís not bad, but I have decided to be part time and focus on life outside BA. And when I am at work I try to embrace it for what it is. Flying aeroplanes for a living, especially for BA, is not a bad way to make a living!!

Good luck to you all.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 12:31
  #4528 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 828
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
There is no doubt at all that EASA FTLs have made our jobs far more fatiguing. Long haul is all trip two days off, trip two days off, and it does not matter who you ask, everyone who has been flying long haul for any period of time finds that relentless and hugely fatiguing. I cannot comment on how EASA has altered short haul, but I am sure it is not for the better.
Whilst I agree with the general tone of your comments the fact remains that easyJet pilots are still being rostered to CAP371 thanks to the strength of their union. Yes on the day given disruption EASA limits apply but the rostering is still all done as it was prior EASA. How the BA CC let that one slide whilst even our pilot colleagues in easyJet put their foot down on it I don’t know. So to say that the grass is greener at BA coming from a loco is untrue anyway. Fatigue reporting far easier than in BA too, we don’t even have a proper system in place which is absolutely shocking.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 18:15
  #4529 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 629
Not only did they let it slide Rex, they brought in the incredibly dumb alleviation that is Final Assign to replace Forced Draft. Everyone thinks it is great that Forced Draft is gone because BALPA have fed them their spin, but EASA was already going to do away with Forced Draft. You could only be met off an aircraft for a duty the following day. Most long haul duties do not allow you to work the next day under EASA, so that practice would have disappeared overnight all by itself. It would still have been possible to an extent on short haul, but given that BA would have needed to negotiate a different system for long haul, BALPA should have been able to come up with something more advantageous for all. Instead, we just had the alleviations agreed between BALPA and BA, using a system that the Chairman had put to the pilots several times and on every occasion, was told not to even consider it. Final Assign was the foot in the door to bring in JSS.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 18:40
  #4530 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: London
Posts: 30
Donít even know where to begin with that post. Clearly no understanding of what Bidline originally was - it was an extraction process with the complicit understanding that pilots would cover the work with draft if necessary.

Without traditional Forced Draft due to EASA and no FA there would be no way of doing that. 50 trips uncovered on the 1st of August etc. Bidline is a 2 way street and covering the work would be impossible.

So much uninformed rubbish on here.
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Old 26th Feb 2018, 06:20
  #4531 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,653
Originally Posted by WhatTheDeuce View Post
So much uninformed rubbish on here.
That's a tad strong..

As an IMHO, standing by to be corrected “ point of order” under a combination of EASA and Bidline “as was” GS is correct - being met at the aircraft door and being forced drafted for a trip the following day would have been impossible on most long haul arrivals. However I’d agree there would had to have been a solution to some of the chronic problems that we saw some days...now whether that would have been an earlier end to genuine fully leaded Bidline or an earlier objective look at the establishment and pilot numbers, I guess we will never know.

Anyhow the above is irrelevant to prospect DEPs, though it might perhaps give them a glimmer of how things have changed. We/they are stuck with Roster Assign as the fix, which at least gives more notice that domestic plans might be compromised, until JSS kicks Bidlinelite into touch.

BTW how you guys doing with your GIAs?...Did somebody at head office forget the TA in NUTA?

Last edited by wiggy; 26th Feb 2018 at 06:54.
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Old 26th Feb 2018, 06:44
  #4532 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2
To bring this back to the hold pool and calls being made, can anyone here confirm whether offers have actually gone out to people in the pool who are ntr? I'm NTR, been in the pool since May 2016 and am getting the feeling that my file is lost in some dusty corner of the office!

Any updates from people who've actually seen things moving along would be appreciated.
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Old 26th Feb 2018, 08:10
  #4533 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Age: 55
Posts: 2,759
Now do I try and spend my bonus today or do I spend another day off doing battle with the new highly tested, superbly supported ďbenefitsĒ website....
Don't get me started! I'm surprised that it hasn't been discussed further on here.
1.4% of basic for a profit of £1.77B. Motivated? Not really.
As for the SELECT website. Amateurish at best.
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Old 26th Feb 2018, 08:43
  #4534 (permalink)  
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: UK (and now rarely behind enemy lines but still enjoying foreign climes.)
Posts: 1,342
Originally Posted by TURIN View Post
As for the SELECT website. Amateurish at best.
I don't think it is even that good!
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Old 26th Feb 2018, 08:58
  #4535 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 629
Originally Posted by WhatTheDeuce View Post
Without traditional Forced Draft due to EASA and no FA there would be no way of doing that.
Yep, hence why I said
but given that BA would have needed to negotiate a different system for long haul, BALPA should have been able to come up with something more advantageous for all.
If you are so conversant with bidline rules and their origins, you will also know that the intent of forced draft was that it be used infrequently, to cover unforseen circumstances. (As you say, the system would break down without it). However, BA were using it for very predictable uncovered work, and each time an agreement to solve it was reached, BA just reduced pilot numbers still further. Now I agree, something needed to be done, but the solution we have ended up with is a poor effort. Will BA still operate with as few pilots as possible under JSS? Of course they will. I note you have said earlier you are a pp5 Captain. It will be interesting to read how you feel about JSS when you are obtaining one or two choices you wanted during Winter months, but having them all optimised away during the Summer months. I expect it will be better than your previous outfit though, so perhaps you will be happy enough. Bring on the next reduction in T’s and C’s please BA because the majority of your fresh new workforce have come from worse places and are perfectly happy for you to keep on going.
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Old 26th Feb 2018, 09:43
  #4536 (permalink)  
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York
Posts: 687
Point of Order if I may?

BA wanted rid of Bidline.

BA wanted rid of Bidline because they couldn’t build CAP achieving Blindlines from the rubbish left over, after Tripline holders, (and T0 bidders!) had taken their picks. Inability to work the most junior pilots to CAP, resulted in two problems: Firstly BA had to employ ‘additional’ pilots to support Bidline. Secondly, work was left over (uncovered) after rosters were issued.

Despite the problem being highlighted countless times by BALPA, BA pilots played into BA’s hands by refusing or avoiding draft at the a/c side. Many of us are aware of the ‘extreme lengths’ some colleagues went to, to avoid meeting a manager after landing!

BA have successfully negotiated a solution to the problem of work coverage, by introducing JSS. (A system that will ensure all pilots can work to CAP. Their contractually agreed workload!) BA pilots voted in favour of this solution!

The current system of Final Assign, is merely ‘life support’ to allow Bidline to continue in Intensive Care until it draws it’s last breath. Nobody can now avoid it by claiming too short notice. Nobody can now avoid it by running from managers in terminals wearing fancy dress!

Any company should reasonably expect it’s workforce to be able to ‘produce’ it’s contracted hours. Saying BA employed too few pilots at the time, may well be partly correct. But BA could always demonstrate they had sufficient pilots if the work was distributed evenly amongst them. Individual preferences for some, simply allowed Bidline to prevent that from happening. When BA PILOTS withdrew their support for the system. What were BA supposed to do?

JSS will put total control of roster satisfaction, in the hands of those controlling establishment! BA pilots’ bidding and behaviour demanded that. BA pilots voted for it.


All Devil’s Advocate obviously!
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Old 26th Feb 2018, 09:44
  #4537 (permalink)  
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Moscow Hotel
Posts: 17
But you will struggle to find a much better pension elsewhere, especially in the UK.
I believe an other IAG carrier to the west of the UK has a defined benefit scheme where the employee contributes 11% and the company contributes 21%.
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Old 26th Feb 2018, 10:04
  #4538 (permalink)  
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 15
Originally Posted by Doppio View Post
Just for information; I've recently left BA to take a command at Ryanair. Spent several years as a Longhaul DEP but it's going nowhere; BA went from a Legacy carrier to a Longhaul LoCo in the space of several years... And I figured if I'm going to work for a LoCo I might as well work for one that pays more than BA.
It's sad but there you have it.
All of the former reasons for joining are no longer there; bidline, pension, 24 point payscale, early shorthaul command, early retirement and working less than 850hrs per year... And Alex Cruz isn't done yet; not by a long shot. All that's left now is prestige, I tried paying for my groceries the other day with that, but they wouldn't take it.
Obviously make your own decison, but I've made mine; I'm out.
Well you could have had an early short haul command couldn’t you.
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Old 26th Feb 2018, 10:14
  #4539 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,653
If you are so conversant with bidline rules and their origins,

FWIW in my "office" I have an unamended paper copy of Bidline rules from 2010.... In the loft somewhere I've actually got my set from around '90 and looking at that really would make eyes water...every time I hear someone say we are still working to Bidline I have to "box the chimp".
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Old 26th Feb 2018, 10:15
  #4540 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: The lovely Norfolk countryside
Posts: 4
Smile BA Managed Path

Hey all, anyone know:

If the last round of BA managed path a success? Did BA get what they thought they were getting...?

Are BA planning on running another managed path campaign?

Hope somebody out there is in the know!
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