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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 24th Feb 2018, 23:06
  #4521 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: The Home of the Gnomes
Posts: 363
2. Yes, bidline as a bidding function has gone, but it has been replaced by a powerful new system which remains better than any other system I know of in any other airline.
How do you know? It's still being "built".

There are some issues with it and it has been delayed until at least September because no-one wants to take the risk of implementing it during the summer when the schedule as it is looks a bit optimistic.

It may be that it turns out to be the best thing since sliced bread but until everyone is bidding with it simultaneously, any suggestion that it is "better than any other system" is conjecture.
Tay Cough is offline  
Old 24th Feb 2018, 23:55
  #4522 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Surrey
Posts: 10
Well said polepilot

The negativity towards BA astounds me on this forum. If guys who have been in for 10+ years thinks the Tís+Cís at BA are as bad as you make out on here, what do you think the LoCoís are doing....Its certainly a race to the bottom but what we have is bloody good in comparison!

Complaining about the new bidding, yes I would prefer to keep Bidline, but did I have any say over my roster at previous? NO, and did my roster stay as what was allocated, NO, it changed every single day I checked out from previous day! I know shorthaul is not everyoneís dream fleet but in 5 years average, +\- you can bid off and spend your months playing golf in South Africa, drinking Beer/eating chicken wings on West coast, and generally seeing the world on a monthly basis! This is not to mention being treated like a professional pilot, left to make decisions in the right seat which is far from the Loco I came from!

How about this feed is used to help the guys that ACTUALLY want to join BA and therefore help them to do so, rather than moan about first world problems that quite frankly are absent at most of UK Loco/airlines today!

And if weíre going to mention money, as an SFO at previous Loco(6 years), I make a lot more at BA. Albeit some overtime, again not an option at most Loco, you roster just gets changed to cover the work!

If your not convicted by joining BA, leave the guys/girls that are, the jobs that they actually want!

Lastly, the majority of my friends that work at my previous, hate every single day the alarm goes off to go to work! The company treats them badly, they work extremely hard and they get nothing more that whatís written in the basic contact they sign. The FOís I know are probably on a combination of around 6 different contracts.

The proof is in the pudding as you can count the pilots that leave BA on one hand, that in itself says an awful lot, when Locoís are loosing hundreds when the market starts moving!

If your keen to apply, I recommend you do so, I never looked back...
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 00:11
  #4523 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: somewhere between Miami and Havana
Posts: 114
Just joined, Ellan?
Buter is offline  
Old 25th Feb 2018, 00:21
  #4524 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: somewhere between Miami and Havana
Posts: 114
Rusty - just because this outfit is better than your last, don’t preach to us about how good we have it.

We’ve had our t’s and c’s destroyed over the last few years so you can politely **** off. If you think that losing bidline is no big deal then you really need to examine why you joined BA.

I kinda hope your post is just a wind up. Sadly, you probably believe what you’ve written.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 00:53
  #4525 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,487
TBH I suspect Buter has a point, and Iím sure that if someone had joined from certain airlines where for example rosters instability was rife then for a time BA can appear brilliant, but at some point you have to look over the rose tinted glasses:

Saying we still have a document labelled Bidline is technically true but the ďdeviceĒ is a shadow of itís former self.....it really is.
JSS....the new rostering system .. well aside from a select few has nobody has seen it function yet.
Hotels...ATM generally good, sure, but there is definitely an increasing downwards tendency in terms of location and quality as IAG screw down on the group hotel budget...
Staff travel.....Iím not sure many with families would describe it in Whickeresque terms...talking to some new joiners I gather the BA version is relatively quite limited but using it can certainly lead to some adventures.

Now most of the above, or similar would probably be standard gripes at any airline but until the last few years it was almost unheard of for people to join BA, give it a try and then return to their former outfit, or simply be mid career BA and decide to jump ship....The fact that that is now happening, even in small number, is a powerful indicator of how the airline has evolved.

If you are joining then like joining any airline make the most of what you have on day one.....Iím sure for many it is a great place to be now...
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 00:56
  #4526 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: somewhere between Miami and Havana
Posts: 114
Cheers, CC.

Far more eloquent than myself, as always.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 07:34
  #4527 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 34
Buter - No, Iíve been in BA for 5 years having worked at 4 other airlines previously, so Iíve done the rounds.

Some of our colleagues have completely lost sight of what real life is like elsewhere in aviation and in careers outside of flying. The sense of entitlement that some hold is bizarre.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 07:58
  #4528 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 416
Buter

Why don’t just grow a pair and stand up for yourselves. BAs T&Cs will continue to fall downwards unless and until you threaten and actually do strike, to stop it. You are a bunch of whinging weaklings. There, I said it.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 08:07
  #4529 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: London
Posts: 134
Makes for good reading
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 08:11
  #4530 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: UK
Age: 44
Posts: 38
Originally Posted by EllanVannin View Post
Buter - No, Iíve been in BA for 5 years having worked at 4 other airlines previously, so Iíve done the rounds.

Some of our colleagues have completely lost sight of what real life is like elsewhere in aviation and in careers outside of flying. The sense of entitlement that some hold is bizarre.
Quite - except I too joined BA from another airline. I however find it frightening that so many firmly believe that itís some how wrong to feel a sense of entitlement simply because, ĎIíve worked elsewhere, you have no idea how lucky you are, etcí.
EllanVannin - please explain why we shouldnít be entitled to protect some of our T&Cís? Perhaps youíll be happy nightstopping in an Ibis and only having enough money to Delsey dine?
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 08:19
  #4531 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London
Posts: 236
Buter

All done and voted for by BA pilots! If loosing bidline was so bad then the union should never have recommended it and the pilots should not have voted yes. BA have taken advantage of a corrupt and week union and they have not implemented anything that has not been arrgeed by BALPA and the work force. And now they have a nicely divided work force I am sure the attacks won’t stop anytime soon, let’s see if BALPA can grow a pair and stop looking after themselves.

Last edited by Enzo999; 25th Feb 2018 at 09:07.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 09:00
  #4532 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Home
Posts: 923
Some very negative BA comments here!
Depends what lifestyle you want and perhaps your previous Employer. Friend of mine lifestyle immensely improved. From Ex Military, poor pay, Hotac that would not be acceptable in airline life. Completely random unstable rostering etc.etc.
A couple of years in now after direct into BA LH. £70k ish, mainly 5 day trips with couple of days free down route (plenty of golf if that’s your bag) Mainly high quality hotels in the city.
Small fleet very social, no rubbish destinations. Although junior, complete roster stability after publication, and very easy trip swapping helps family arranging on days off at home.
Obviously plenty of night flying, but helped by one of the best flightdeck environment and crew rest facility in the business.
Some may prefer EZY and Ryan but “horses for courses”

Last edited by cessnapete; 25th Feb 2018 at 09:12.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 09:01
  #4533 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 34
Originally Posted by JOSHUA View Post
Quite - except I too joined BA from another airline. I however find it frightening that so many firmly believe that itís some how wrong to feel a sense of entitlement simply because, ĎIíve worked elsewhere, you have no idea how lucky you are, etcí.
EllanVannin - please explain why we shouldnít be entitled to protect some of our T&Cís? Perhaps youíll be happy nightstopping in an Ibis and only having enough money to Delsey dine?
I donít disagree. Youíre setting up a straw man argument.

Iím as peeíd off as the next guy with the company and am more than happy to strike to protect our Ts and Cs. Thatís not what the argument is here. The point we are trying to make is that life isnít as bad as a lot of the posts on this forum make it sound. Far from it.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 09:51
  #4534 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,487
I sense thereís a bit of ď well if you had ever worked anywhere else you wouldnít think like thatĒ creeping in, so just to put the record straight many of those perhaps expressing less than glowing views of BA did indeed have a life before BA...even many those regarded as institutionalised who joined 30 years back have in fact been either in the mil and/or with another airline and are very well aware of things like roster instability, poor accommodation .. and phone calls at 3 in the AM....so yes, weíve all know ďthe four Yorkshiremen

BA used to be the top U.K. gig by a country mile...yes, .it is an eye opener when you join and some of the ďperksĒ can make your eyes water if you previously done things like spending time off downroute living on a car ferry...

I think Long Haul is probably still a pretty top job, short haul...I donít know but I know those who do....but I do know the slide in T&Cs has been enormous over the last few years as the operation is steered from Madrid and I suspect that slide will continue, so those thinking in indulging need to indulge in a lot of thinking ahead.

Certainly those now looking at BA need to perform due diligence like never before ..and yes, it is indeed horses for courses...long haul DEP offered...grab it...if the offer is Shorthaul DEP and you are already well established at your current outfit...thatís a tough one...not sure Iíd jump without a lot of research.

Now do I try and spend my bonus today or do I spend another day off doing battle with the new highly tested, superbly supported ďbenefitsĒ website....

Last edited by wiggy; 25th Feb 2018 at 10:14.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 10:53
  #4535 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: England
Posts: 30
Reading People are leaving can only be a good thing for those of us here to stay. BA is my 3rd airline having done charter & ME before, there are many things BA get wrong but also many positives too. BA certainly isnít the Ďbe all & end allí but it works for me. We are an easy target for the haters.... it is what it is. I certainly donít go for prestige.... rather the job security & 100k gross for doing 3-4 trips a month with min hassle. Those who search my prev post will see I turned down a SH command 3 years ago when we had the one opportunity to do so, that was after 6 years in the company.... I believe in 2016 if you had the hours you could of had a LHR or LGW 320 command regardless of time in the company... now weíre short AGAIN... I can see SH commands crashing down again by the end of the year. If anyone in or out of BA says it X or Y to commands etc theyíre lying as who knows? It changes daily & even BA donít know... just got to bid for what you want!

If it works for you itís a great place to be... but itís an airline & like my 2 previous itís not perfect & could be so much better for min effort.... but tell me where is..... Come in, have a laugh, go home...

People leaving is one thing..... Now if we could only get people to STOP APPLYING, then weíd be in a far stronger position!
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 11:28
  #4536 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 590
I’ve spent some time thinking about why we have had such a massive slide in BA over the past few years. BA will obviously take what they can when they can - they want to be as competitive as possible, so who can blame them? This has always been the case though, so the answer must come down to why can they take so much now?

What has changed in the last couple of years? Well for starters, we have a huge number of new DEPs who have come from other airlines, who largely share the views of the guys on this thread. “BA is way better than our previous outfits, what are you all whinging about?” Are they going to put up a fight against BA?

What else has changed? EASA and the availability of part time! There is no doubt at all that EASA FTLs have made our jobs far more fatiguing. Long haul is all trip two days off, trip two days off, and it does not matter who you ask, everyone who has been flying long haul for any period of time finds that relentless and hugely fatiguing. I cannot comment on how EASA has altered short haul, but I am sure it is not for the better. However, in almost the same time frame, it is now far easier to access part time. So the more senior guys who have a bit of spare cash have been able to remove the fatiguing changes by going part time. If you can afford 50% you are laughing. Who needs bidline when you are senior and part time? Senior JSS guys will be writing their own rosters - especially if they are part time!

Who needs a NAPS pension when you have already taken your pension out of NAPS. Who needs a NAPS pension when you are already drawing it with flexible retirement? Who needs a NAPS pension when you were recruited without one in the first place?

Then we have got BALPA. The pilots are BALPA, and yet far too many people in BA trust BALPA to such an extent that they do not even bother to read the new changes being proposed. Instead, they just vote whichever way BALPA recommends. The BALPA reps negotiate as best as they can. They put their hearts into it, and come up with their clever little ideas. They love their deals and think they have done a great job. Of course they are going to recommend it is accepted! It is kind of like a form of Stockholm syndrome. Who would invest so much time, effort and passion in something and then say it should be discarded?

The rate of deterioration in BA has therefore accelerated massively, and will not stop, until the pilots as a majority, genuinely want it to stop. The new entrants (if they weren’t Captains previously), are just happy to be here and will take anything. The senior guys have mitigated their problems by going part time, shifting their pensions or drawing them, and are ready to leave with three months notice when things get too bad, and so have given up the fight.

I have flown with far too many people who think BA is great and to be blunt, they are their own worst problem. Their LoCo outfits had low terms and conditions because they never stood up and protected them - they were just glad to have jobs. Now they are a growing majority in BA, and they are doing more of the same!

So BA’s terms and conditions are disappearing off down the drain at a scary rate, and will continue to do so because we are continuing to recruit people who are happy with their lot despite the decline. What will you end up with in a surprisingly short space of time? That is right, somewhere just like your old outfit but with nowhere to escape to this time.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 11:39
  #4537 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: London
Posts: 134
GS ALPHA probably one of the best posts I have ever read on PPRuNe !
Itís sad to see as I have many friends in BA and even they say itís getting much worse and should of stayed at easy etc...
time will tell
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 11:58
  #4538 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Earth
Posts: 36
I was unfortunately unsuccessful during the BA assessment so looking from outside in, however nearly all my mates have jumped ship to BA and I can honestly say none of them have regretted their move to BA LH (on 747 & 787). If I had the oppertunity to join BA, Iíd jump at the chance. Yes itís not what it use to be but nowhere is these days.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 13:24
  #4539 (permalink)  
BAP
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: up there some where!
Posts: 75
BA is my third airline, having flown both charter and in the ME.

T&Cís are still significantly better than many other places. And remain competitive if you compare new joiners with new joiners. Bidding and swapping without having to speak to current ops(crewing) is something you would struggle to find elsewhere.
Professionalism and being treated as an adult is something that my old colleagues, in especially the ME, would be green of envy over.

The new pension is very generous compared to many other professions and airlines. Could it be better? Of course, we are all jealous of our older colleagues who have enjoyed the good times with a retirement age of 55. But at least we have time on our hand
But you will struggle to find a much better pension elsewhere, especially in the UK.

The ability to change fleet every 5 years (for now) is unbelievable generous, and if it was my airline, I too would be looking to change it... but hopefully they wonít :-/

Our hotels down route are great, although I find that the time down route on SH is getting shorter...

HOWEVER..

The pay the first many years is not brilliant considering the cost of living, especially now that most people find it hard to have a home life on full time and therefore feel the need to go part time, especially if on SH.

London is hugely expensive, a VERY quick search in the internet suggested that it is 33% more expensive to live in London compared to Manchester. So you either suffer financially living in the SE or you try to commute, something that is now frowned upon and increasingly difficult. Not to mentioned the cost both financially and to your work life balance.

BA is by far the most lonely airline I have ever worked at. You will meet great people everyday, but you will not truly get to know anybody. And when flying with a familiar face, you have to start from the beginning as you will struggle to remember their story. You will also find it difficult to know who your manager is and they would most certainly not know much about you.

I too get jealous when I read about American or Delta and their massive pay packages and bonuses. And I wonder if we are underpaid. But the truth is, that it is so much easier to become an airline pilot in Europe. Just remember the EasyJet program a few months ago. All the pilots were around 12! Or the news that the youngest ever female captain of 23 or something and her 19 year old fo taking an easyJet Airbus for a spin.. itís hard to do much about the decline in T&Cs when you can get fast tracked in to the left hand seat with little life and flying experience.

I am fairly happy with my job at BA but I often look around for better options and if EZY or similar were to offer some better contracts with the option of a base of choice, then I might just be tempted. Or if letís say TUI were to offer DEC at the regions as they have done before. Well then I would be very tempted.

But overall itís not bad, but I have decided to be part time and focus on life outside BA. And when I am at work I try to embrace it for what it is. Flying aeroplanes for a living, especially for BA, is not a bad way to make a living!!

Good luck to you all.
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Old 25th Feb 2018, 13:31
  #4540 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 737
Originally Posted by GS-Alpha View Post
There is no doubt at all that EASA FTLs have made our jobs far more fatiguing. Long haul is all trip two days off, trip two days off, and it does not matter who you ask, everyone who has been flying long haul for any period of time finds that relentless and hugely fatiguing. I cannot comment on how EASA has altered short haul, but I am sure it is not for the better.
Whilst I agree with the general tone of your comments the fact remains that easyJet pilots are still being rostered to CAP371 thanks to the strength of their union. Yes on the day given disruption EASA limits apply but the rostering is still all done as it was prior EASA. How the BA CC let that one slide whilst even our pilot colleagues in easyJet put their foot down on it I don’t know. So to say that the grass is greener at BA coming from a loco is untrue anyway. Fatigue reporting far easier than in BA too, we don’t even have a proper system in place which is absolutely shocking.
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