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BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 3rd Feb 2016, 19:44
  #2541 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Horley
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Cliff, you've spotted the cunning plan. The company council have not given the line membership an option to vote for "no change".

I'll no doubt make a pig's ear of it but I will try and paraphrase the two options we have been given:

Either A. General pay rise, plus keep the fixed flying pay and allow Bidline to limp along with an increasing number of bits of bodge tape holding it together until it is revamped next year into Bidline 2017, which could well end up more of a preferencing system than traditional Bidline, or

B. General pay rise, Change back to variable flying/duty pay, adopt JSS preference rostering ASAP with a promise of a slightly lower annual hours target than under Bidline, take a chance on a bonus scheme which will run for three years and an enhanced medical loss of licence cover scheme which you may or may not need...

There are other knobs and bells attached mainly to option B but that seems to be the jist of it.

The Company Council don't seem to think BA are open to further negotiation, it's take or leave one of the two options, and they have recommended B to the membership (back to variable pay and adopt JSS)
Thanks Wiggy all very interesting and disappointing at the same time.
I was under the impression that, on the whole, you guys worked pretty efficiently in term of unitising the annual hours limits so, other than the company thinking they can squeeze a bit more out of you, can't see any reason for change.
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Old 3rd Feb 2016, 19:58
  #2542 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 712
BALPA, ie , us have agreed to an optimizer with BL17 and JSS. This means that the robustness of being awarded a line that reaches CAP that used to mean you were fireproof has long gone. There have been endless debates about why that is and who is to blame. All pointless. The important thing is what will happen in the future. Expect monthly flying hours of 85-90 hours with EASA limits in the near future and you won't be far wrong.
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Old 3rd Feb 2016, 21:28
  #2543 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 828
In that case, what will you be doing with your two months off in November and December then, Hunterboy?
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Old 4th Feb 2016, 06:32
  #2544 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,650
Practical

I was under the impression that, on the whole, you guys worked pretty efficiently in term of unitising the annual hours limits so, other than the company thinking they can squeeze a bit more out of you, can't see any reason for change.
I think it is always down to the company wanting a bit more, which is leading to a managed decline - something prospective joiners need to be aware of.

The lack of a "no change" option post negotiations has become fairly standard. I think many on the BACC are still scarred by the Open Skies episode ( having heard what went on at a personal level I think that is quite understandable), they saw what went on around the Cabin crew dispute, and have decided any move towards IA is best avoided. Therefore following any negotiations we tend to see a couple of options being offered up, one of which is usually recommended by the BACC. In the heated debate that then follows elsewhere we then normally get told that not voting for the BACC's recommended option will result in them (or many of them) resigning.

That's my read of it and all IMVHO of course.
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Old 4th Feb 2016, 07:50
  #2545 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 312
Neither option looks especially attractive to me. At a time when the industry is supposedly on the up, why are we accepting this continuing downward trajectory? Have BALPA become a glossy magazine subscription?

Option B appears to disadvantage those lower down the pecking order with the removal of the fixed element of flying pay. For those not senior enough to benefit from JSS while receiving unpredictable pay derived from a roster that published a couple weeks earlier than the current system. What's in it for those of us lower down the seniority list? Or does this just benefit those at the top?

Perhaps it's time to consider other options to the sacred cow that is Bidline. Fixed pattern rosters have worked very well in previous operators and continues to serve those at FR and EZY very well. Perhaps its something worth looking at for us.... (he says while running for cover)

With a mortgage and a young family to pay for, my instincts tell me that the current offer is a big move in the wrong direction.

Last edited by 2 Whites 2 Reds; 4th Feb 2016 at 09:20. Reason: Email from BALPA containing details shortly after posting
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Old 4th Feb 2016, 08:32
  #2546 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Horley
Posts: 3
Thanks for the info Wiggy, much appreciated.
As a new joiner nothing I can do about it, however I have to agree that it seems a very big move in the wrong direction during a boom period. I dread to think what they will pull when times turn bad :-(
Bidline, even as junior trash, was a big selling point for me, I can only hope that the replacement allows for the flexibility that you guys appear to have enjoyed regarding swapping, bidding for days off etc. Time will tell.
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Old 4th Feb 2016, 11:05
  #2547 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 712
I think the fact that the industry is on the up doesn't apply to the employees. In fact , the two are probably inversely related, like most large companies now.
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Old 4th Feb 2016, 12:42
  #2548 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 850
A lot of the BACC resigning would not be a bad thing, the current lot are too close to the company and do not listen to their electorate, preferring to tell us that they know best and we should leave things to them, as they have our best interests at heart. That they have overseen the destruction of one of the most coveted rostering systems in the airline says a lot. Still, if you are a long distance commuter selling what is left of it for a few back to backs is probably quite desirable.
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Old 4th Feb 2016, 12:44
  #2549 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 312
Possibly, but when the Industry is on the down, it definitely applies to employees. The employers make sure it does!

Don't get me wrong, when things are not going so well, being 'all in it together' and making sacrifices necessary to ensure the ongoing survival of a business and therefore our employment is absolutely the right thing to do.

Conversely, when things go in the other direction the sacrifices made in the tough times should be rewarded. At the moment all I see is T's and C's continuing to be erroded despite the industry doing relatively well. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels the same.

Just my two penneth, those that have been in BA far longer than I will almost certainly have a more informed point of view.

Cheers

2W2R
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Old 4th Feb 2016, 16:08
  #2550 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Sunnydale
Posts: 164
I think what has hamstrung the current BACC is they saw what happened to the cabin crew in their dispute. End result is BASSA really aren't at the negotiating table anymore. I don't for one second think the new management would act any different if Balpa did the same. Sr. Cruz just needs an excuse to bring across some of his more interesting ideas from Vueling.
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Old 4th Feb 2016, 17:34
  #2551 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 712
I wouldn't go as far as blaming the union, rather the lack of unity among the pilot workforce. Different pension schemes, pay scales and differing senses of entitlement mean that one size doesn't fit all. It is very difficult for BALPA to please more than about 30% of the workforce at any one time.
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Old 4th Feb 2016, 22:08
  #2552 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,650
2 Whites 2 Reds

Option B appears to disadvantage those lower down the pecking order with the removal of the fixed element of flying pay
FWIW that is also the way I see it.
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Old 5th Feb 2016, 07:42
  #2553 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Northants
Posts: 692
Wiggy,

I think that senior pilots are also disadvantaged under option B. The company state that it wouldn't allow a pilot to get something like Cpt Cpt Lax on a line. If my current seniority would allow me to get that then the proposed changes are a degredation in conditions. So junior and senior suffer. Who wins? Why the company of course.

This BACC have overseen a massive degredation in our terms and conditions. The holy grail of bidline has gone and we've received nothing in return. If they didn't see that allowing new entrants onto a new pension and payscale would lead to the demolition of bargaining power due to split interests then they are fools. Everyone else saw it and told them but, as usual, we were just short sighted whereas they had the "big picture" and knew what was best for us. Muppets.
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Old 5th Feb 2016, 08:28
  #2554 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: france
Posts: 106
Hi guys,
Quick one , probably mentionned before.
What are the best books to get prepare for the computer, comprehension, math...tests.
Thanks
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Old 5th Feb 2016, 08:58
  #2555 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Up in the skies
Posts: 2
What is the salary for a BA Longhaul DEP?
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Old 5th Feb 2016, 08:59
  #2556 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 629
Flap62

Everyone else might have seen it and told them, but there have been votes on each of the changes you mention. If people want to continue to blindly follow their reps and vote in the direction BALPA recommend, then there is actually very little democratic process and the BALPA reps might as well just be a team of BA selected pilot negotiators. We need a team of professional negotiators, not pilots who've been on the odd course, and we need a union that is not scared of its own shadow. In my opinion, pilots are in BALPA for a few different reasons, but top of the list are laziness (they can't be bothered looking at proposals properly; choosing to simply vote whichever way the reps suggest), hope (they think things would be worse without a union and hope that one day it will grow a pair), and insurance (they think BALPA will protect them legally if they ever have an incident/accident, or if they have some other problem at work. They are wrong though. If BALPA chooses to protect you - you didn't need protecting in the first place.)
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Old 5th Feb 2016, 09:09
  #2557 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 712
GS-Alpha has got it about right....in fact BALPA will only support you legally if there is a >50% chance of winning your case. I wonder how many members appreciate that......
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Old 5th Feb 2016, 09:27
  #2558 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Northants
Posts: 692
GS Alpha and hunter boy,

Agree with you both 100%.

It is pretty difficult when the union present you with two choices, neither of which is palatable and both of which are acceptable to the management. A non of the above option on the ballot paper might be a winner. Oh, and you get to pay 1% of your salary for being stiffed by your union.
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Old 5th Feb 2016, 09:28
  #2559 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 312
Flap 62

While this may affect senior people too, I would argue that the impact isn't quite the same. But you're quite right when you say that, in the end, the company wins. Which is why I'll go back to my original question, why are we accepting this at a time when things are on the up??? Surely we should be adding value to our contracts, not making huge sacrifices to the detriment of all concerned.

The problem is, those further down the list are the lower earners in the company so to remove 7-8k of guaranteed annual income represents approximately a 12% pay cut in year 1. When paying a mortgage and raising a family in the South, that's a really big deal.

I'm staggered that BALPA are recommending I accept a 12% pay cut from my fixed income to accept a Variable pay arrangement in return! My monthly subs were taken on Wednesday and I'm wondering what on earth I'm paying for.

Last edited by 2 Whites 2 Reds; 5th Feb 2016 at 09:41.
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Old 5th Feb 2016, 09:35
  #2560 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Northants
Posts: 692
2W2R,

I agree that (as usual) it is those further down the food chain who will suffer proportionately more. How can it be that we were persuaded a few years ago that moving onto a monthly fixed payment was better for us and the way ahead? Remember BALPA telling us that they had fought hard to get the best deal (after embarrassingly having to backtrack after initially high-handedly imposing a solution on us!)? so what has changed in the last few years that they are now recommending a 180 degree turn?
We have probably taken something near a 15% cut in the last 15 years and yet in times of near record profits BALPA tell us that the proposed 3 year deal will hopefully give us real world increases in at least one of the years!
Unfortunately I have no say in this as I, like you, wondered what I was achieving for my money and after a series of simply shocking decisions gave myself a 1% pay rise.
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