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Terms and Endearment The forum the bean counters hoped would never happen. Your news on pay, rostering, allowances, extras and negotiations where you work - scheduled, charter or contract.

BA Direct Entry Pilot.

Old 3rd Feb 2016, 13:17
  #2521 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Scotland
Posts: 825
Indeed, as another who was shown bidline rosters as part of recruitment, it would be nice to know what is being suggested in place of it and how that is likely to affect those at the bottom of the list?
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Old 3rd Feb 2016, 13:27
  #2522 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 319
Definitely. Anyone working notice would want to know some details behind this. Big decisions made on the info at the time.
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Old 3rd Feb 2016, 13:35
  #2523 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 860
What would be the benefit to the pilot group if bidline was abolished? Given the ability to choose your roster it must be a hell of a benefit in kind to sacrifice that!?
You would think so, but you would be wrong, Bidline is to be sold for a few trinkets. Stockholm syndrome has taken the BACC under their current leadership and they have assisted BA in allowing Bidline to be destroyed. Now they are asking us to vote for a system that they decided wasn't good enough two years ago. It's the old politician's trick of repeating an election till you get the right answer.
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Old 3rd Feb 2016, 13:45
  #2524 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 433
So does the ability to preference trips/days off just disappear if this vote goes through?
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Old 3rd Feb 2016, 13:48
  #2525 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: On the road
Posts: 163
But surely something is being put to counter the loss? What's to be gained? I cant see how a union can recommend a deal that's that negative, even more so why on earth intelligent people would agree to vote for it. Especially in times of strong recruitment and Hugh financial yields.
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Old 3rd Feb 2016, 14:02
  #2526 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,079
Cliff, There are a few things being thrown into the mix at the moment, such as a profit share/bonus scheme, that might make it a win and might make the changes worth voting for if you are willing to speculate.....

The two biggies that have got tongues wagging is firstly a proposal to move from Bidline in it's current iteration to a system known as JSS, which I believe our colleagues at United are using. I think the big big difference is that you'll be bidding for preferences on a seniority basis, e.g days off, preferred destinations, rather than bidding for predefined lines (that the company may then alter under the present rules). We are only just getting more info from the reps, maybe one of the smarter guys can fill in massive gaps in my knowledge.

Secondly the other big concern is that there is a proposal that we will get rid of the fixed "flying pay allowance" and revert to some form of hourly (flying hour/duty hour pay.), which by definition will vary from month to month depending on duties, sickness. BA BALPA fought a long battle to get as much pay as possible fixed, so to me a a bit of a strange step and most definitely a massive U turn, though I guess it might make sense to some financial whizz kids who look at the spreadsheets and reckon they'll gain somewhere else in the deal....personally I'm not convinced. Those negotiating with lenders for mortgages and/or loans are saying the drop in the fixed element in the pay could them cause big problems. I think for many it's simply a financial risk they can't take and I feel this issue alone is a deal breaker for a lot of the junior pilots- they need the fixed allowance. Then again I'm sure others here have more info and perhaps a different POV.

It is all being debated now, there will then follow a vote on whether to change or stick with something approximating to the current system.

Last edited by wiggy; 3rd Feb 2016 at 14:16.
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Old 3rd Feb 2016, 14:20
  #2527 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Cornwall
Age: 31
Posts: 202
Anyone have any idea on the other "Pilot recruitment news" to be announced this week after the A320 DEP was announced?
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Old 3rd Feb 2016, 15:01
  #2528 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 751
Whichever system comes in, BA have managed to bolt an optimizer to the back of it, so that 99.5% of the work will be covered to the detriment of everybody's preferences/awarded line. Don't be coming in thinking your roster will be set in stone. That won't be until around -8 days to the start of the month I believe. Sadly, those new joiners will realise the BA job is rapidly going the way of Emirates. Reading the Emirates threads just reminds me of what is coming our way....

Last edited by hunterboy; 3rd Feb 2016 at 15:25.
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Old 3rd Feb 2016, 15:53
  #2529 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: On the road
Posts: 163
Hunter boy, if it's heading to become like emirates then why on earth would anyone vote to change it? Do the union have to agree to a change either way or is it optional to keep as you are?

In my humble experience if you're onto a good screw and a company offers a variation or alternative, it's always for the workers detriment, no matter how glitzy it is presented
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Old 3rd Feb 2016, 17:56
  #2530 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 5
Changing the flight pay to variable from fixed looks like a pay cut. That is a concern to me considering the strong financial performance of BA - that they are still looking to reduce Pilots pay.

The idea of a bonus or profit share to offset the loss in fixed flight pay may sound lucrative but it's not guaranteed income.

I'm not a BA pilot, just an interested person in this new development.
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Old 3rd Feb 2016, 18:54
  #2531 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 6,079
Hunter boy, if it's heading to become like emirates then why on earth would anyone vote to change it? Do the union have to agree to a change either way .....
Cliff, you've spotted the cunning plan. The company council have not given the line membership an option to vote for "no change".

I'll no doubt make a pig's ear of it but I will try and paraphrase the two options we have been given:

Either A. 3 year pay deal, small very much single digit %s, plus keep the fixed flying pay and allow Bidline to limp along with an increasing number of bits of bodge tape holding it together until it is revamped next year into Bidline 2017, which could well end up more of a preferencing system than traditional Bidline, or

B. Same pay deal as option A, but revert to variable flying/duty pay, adopt JSS preference rostering ASAP with a promise of a slightly lower annual hours target than under Bidline, take a chance on a bonus scheme which will run for three years and an enhanced medical loss of licence cover scheme which you may or may not need...

There are other knobs and bells attached mainly to option B but that seems to be the jist of it.

The Company Council don't seem to think BA are open to further negotiation, it's take or leave one of the two options, and they have recommended B to the membership (back to variable pay and adopt JSS)

Last edited by wiggy; 3rd Feb 2016 at 19:49.
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Old 3rd Feb 2016, 19:44
  #2532 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Horley
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by wiggy View Post
Cliff, you've spotted the cunning plan. The company council have not given the line membership an option to vote for "no change".

I'll no doubt make a pig's ear of it but I will try and paraphrase the two options we have been given:

Either A. General pay rise, plus keep the fixed flying pay and allow Bidline to limp along with an increasing number of bits of bodge tape holding it together until it is revamped next year into Bidline 2017, which could well end up more of a preferencing system than traditional Bidline, or

B. General pay rise, Change back to variable flying/duty pay, adopt JSS preference rostering ASAP with a promise of a slightly lower annual hours target than under Bidline, take a chance on a bonus scheme which will run for three years and an enhanced medical loss of licence cover scheme which you may or may not need...

There are other knobs and bells attached mainly to option B but that seems to be the jist of it.

The Company Council don't seem to think BA are open to further negotiation, it's take or leave one of the two options, and they have recommended B to the membership (back to variable pay and adopt JSS)
Thanks Wiggy all very interesting and disappointing at the same time.
I was under the impression that, on the whole, you guys worked pretty efficiently in term of unitising the annual hours limits so, other than the company thinking they can squeeze a bit more out of you, can't see any reason for change.
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Old 3rd Feb 2016, 19:58
  #2533 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 751
BALPA, ie , us have agreed to an optimizer with BL17 and JSS. This means that the robustness of being awarded a line that reaches CAP that used to mean you were fireproof has long gone. There have been endless debates about why that is and who is to blame. All pointless. The important thing is what will happen in the future. Expect monthly flying hours of 85-90 hours with EASA limits in the near future and you won't be far wrong.
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Old 3rd Feb 2016, 21:28
  #2534 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 866
In that case, what will you be doing with your two months off in November and December then, Hunterboy?
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Old 4th Feb 2016, 06:32
  #2535 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
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Practical

I was under the impression that, on the whole, you guys worked pretty efficiently in term of unitising the annual hours limits so, other than the company thinking they can squeeze a bit more out of you, can't see any reason for change.
I think it is always down to the company wanting a bit more, which is leading to a managed decline - something prospective joiners need to be aware of.

The lack of a "no change" option post negotiations has become fairly standard. I think many on the BACC are still scarred by the Open Skies episode ( having heard what went on at a personal level I think that is quite understandable), they saw what went on around the Cabin crew dispute, and have decided any move towards IA is best avoided. Therefore following any negotiations we tend to see a couple of options being offered up, one of which is usually recommended by the BACC. In the heated debate that then follows elsewhere we then normally get told that not voting for the BACC's recommended option will result in them (or many of them) resigning.

That's my read of it and all IMVHO of course.
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Old 4th Feb 2016, 07:50
  #2536 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 314
Neither option looks especially attractive to me. At a time when the industry is supposedly on the up, why are we accepting this continuing downward trajectory? Have BALPA become a glossy magazine subscription?

Option B appears to disadvantage those lower down the pecking order with the removal of the fixed element of flying pay. For those not senior enough to benefit from JSS while receiving unpredictable pay derived from a roster that published a couple weeks earlier than the current system. What's in it for those of us lower down the seniority list? Or does this just benefit those at the top?

Perhaps it's time to consider other options to the sacred cow that is Bidline. Fixed pattern rosters have worked very well in previous operators and continues to serve those at FR and EZY very well. Perhaps its something worth looking at for us.... (he says while running for cover)

With a mortgage and a young family to pay for, my instincts tell me that the current offer is a big move in the wrong direction.

Last edited by 2 Whites 2 Reds; 4th Feb 2016 at 09:20. Reason: Email from BALPA containing details shortly after posting
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Old 4th Feb 2016, 08:32
  #2537 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Horley
Posts: 3
Thanks for the info Wiggy, much appreciated.
As a new joiner nothing I can do about it, however I have to agree that it seems a very big move in the wrong direction during a boom period. I dread to think what they will pull when times turn bad :-(
Bidline, even as junior trash, was a big selling point for me, I can only hope that the replacement allows for the flexibility that you guys appear to have enjoyed regarding swapping, bidding for days off etc. Time will tell.
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Old 4th Feb 2016, 11:05
  #2538 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: england
Posts: 751
I think the fact that the industry is on the up doesn't apply to the employees. In fact , the two are probably inversely related, like most large companies now.
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Old 4th Feb 2016, 12:42
  #2539 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 860
A lot of the BACC resigning would not be a bad thing, the current lot are too close to the company and do not listen to their electorate, preferring to tell us that they know best and we should leave things to them, as they have our best interests at heart. That they have overseen the destruction of one of the most coveted rostering systems in the airline says a lot. Still, if you are a long distance commuter selling what is left of it for a few back to backs is probably quite desirable.
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Old 4th Feb 2016, 12:44
  #2540 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Button Moon
Posts: 314
Possibly, but when the Industry is on the down, it definitely applies to employees. The employers make sure it does!

Don't get me wrong, when things are not going so well, being 'all in it together' and making sacrifices necessary to ensure the ongoing survival of a business and therefore our employment is absolutely the right thing to do.

Conversely, when things go in the other direction the sacrifices made in the tough times should be rewarded. At the moment all I see is T's and C's continuing to be erroded despite the industry doing relatively well. I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels the same.

Just my two penneth, those that have been in BA far longer than I will almost certainly have a more informed point of view.

Cheers

2W2R
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