Have around 300 pilots left RYR lately?

[Three Lions]

RAT 5 post 238 makes a very good point. specifically:

"but what is the cost, risk & time spent on getting them onto the line and up to speed as safe pilots? An experienced type rated F/O can be released on line with 4-6 weeks max. A cadet from start of TQ training will take over 6 months. Where is the common sense in that. If an accountant can show the cadet scheme makes more financial sense them I presume the board will buy it, but is it really true? It does seem a daft model where experience is a penalty"

However I cannot understand why a company would follow something not financially viable, and to such lengths?

Surely it must have a financial benefit otherwise it would not be considered, after all accountants job depends on them getting the best out of what money they have to play around with. Why would any accountant worth his/her salt recommend something to the company that wasnt financially viable? In this capitalistic world this isnt going to happen

I believe you are right, but I dont understand how you are right ... if that makes sense.

I personally dont sign up to the "good attitude" "one stop shop" and "known training background" now any of the other old pony originated from the ftos (nor either the best of the lot - the impending pilot shortage) you dont get anything different from cadets in comparison to experienced new hires apart from the same mix of personas with good/fine/bad/appalling attitude, the only difference is the lack of experience and background.

Cadets are essential but the ratio to experienced guys has to be correct.

I am actually also interested in whether 300 pilots have left RYR? it is an interesting development if this is actually true.

[A and C]

Three lions

I can't say if 300 is totaly correct but the evidence of those ex- RYR guys that I seem to fly with more and more seems to point to the numbers being in the order of 300 and increasing.

[RAT 5]

RYR has 3000 pilots. An attrition rate of 10% is not unexpected in any airline. This could be made up of retirements, loss of licence, moving on. I wonder how You'll see from the 3 common reasons there is a spread between the older long served veterans, the unfortunate LoL guys of all ages and the more likely mid-expereinced guys who move on. It is likely that the 'movers-on' are not from the nationals but more the next level of operators. How is the ratio in other large airlines?
What might be more of concern is if the vast majority of losses fall into the 'movers-on' category. That identifies that they don't view their company as a medium/longterm career provider. That's disappointing. It reflects on motivation, loyalty and personal investment. It also causes the in-house training dept. a lot of work and dilutes the company culture in higher ranks, or leaves a short-fall of suitable candidates for promotion.
Are other similar airlines experiencing the same outflux? I'm sure there is a vast movement of vacancies inside the industry rather like a solataire; where there is an empty hole but it just keeps moving; i.e. there is a limited number of vacancies and as people move the vacancies move rather than increase. The large movement of labour may give an impression there are countless vacancies.

[172_driver]

What might be more of concern is if the vast majority of losses fall into the 'movers-on' category. That identifies that they don't view their company as a medium/longterm career provider. That's disappointing. It reflects on motivation, loyalty and personal investment. It also causes the in-house training dept. a lot of work and dilutes the company culture in higher ranks, or leaves a short-fall of suitable candidates for promotion.

I understand you're not saying that with your Ryanair hat on, but it's not really strange if people don't see it as a long term career? Unable to get a mortgage, unable to settle down at any location, tax/social insurance issues, not knowing how many standbys the winter will offer, years ticking by without any accumulated pension (unless saving privately), not knowing when the next home base opportunity will open (or stay open, for that matter), painful commuting, threats of 5/3 roster. It works for some, the prospect of PIC time is nice. But there shouldn't be any surprise why experienced FOs in late 20/early 30 that are ready to settle down with their partners, perhaps have kids, look for something better?

[RAT 5]

172: I don't have a RYR hat. My comments were about the industry in general depending in division of the league you see yourself, or want to be. The premier division would be nice for many, but as you suggest home life is high on the priority list for many. Working for a division 1 airline out of an English norther county close to home & friends might have more attractions than commuting, or moving, down to LHR/LGW. Lower T's & C's, but better quality of life for the individual. The same argument could go for those eying up the M.E. or Hong Kong. No idea what the divorce rates are these days for those based overseas, but in HK 20 years ago it was not low. Horses for courses and each to their own. Eye of the beholder and all that.

[Al Murdoch]

Unable to get a mortgage, unable to settle down at any location, tax/social insurance issues, not knowing how many standbys the winter will offer, years ticking by without any accumulated pension

That is precisely why it will never be a long term career option. Fine when you're starting out, but that is no way to live your life.

[SID PLATE]

jeehaa posts.....

"LTC get +10 euro gross psbh
Cadet gets -20 euro "

Not true. LTC's get the same sector pay as other Captains.
Cadets get less than other FO's until they've completed training.

Please stop speculating.

[Tiempoby]

Not true. LTC's get the same sector pay as other Captains.

Not on my BRK contract they dont!

Though I do not agree that the high number of training sectors being cost related.

[SID PLATE]

I was posting about RYR contract pilots, not BRK "service providers".

[Everfly]

And how is Ryr reacting to all his pilot leaving ?

They just decided to lower requirement for upgrade to 2400h ! Nice and easy ...

Lets see what's gonna happen next ... Its gonna be a hot summer

[Depone]

2400 hrs?

What makes you think that?

[Shooting_Star]

Unpopular Bases are I believe those in Morocco and very much to the east of Europe. Aswell the Italian islands and Italy in general due to taxation issues.
Should be possible to get a spanish base though as there are many.
Where did you hear that they will lower the requirements? Can hardly believe you can become captain at 2400hr

[Callsign Kilo]

Whilst the new initiatives may be a last ditch management attempt to attract more FOs into the pretty unpopular CU process, the 2400hr figure relates to starting that process, not sitting in the left hand seat, taking command of a 737.

Anyway, if there are lack of crews to fly the summer schedule then the damage is already done.

[doniedarko]

Just to add a some pragmatism here. Maybe 300 have left and maybe they (RYR) are short of Captains. They already have wet leased aircraft for the summer. It would not be to hard to wet lease more and follow up with the usual bullsh*t to the shareholders ..."due to unprecedented demand for Ryanair's low fare's..blah blah I think Micko and they boys need a really good summer to placate institutional shareholders who are looking at the returns EZY are making !..Either way it will make no difference to how RYR treat their staff. Staff are expenses not assets in RYR world !

[737 Jockey]

Well I've seen the latest STN T&C's and there's an option to have a 'summer roster' giving extra sector pay and 'guaranteed' summer leave, I think it's very clear that they are struggling to crew the summer schedule. But they will NEVER show a chink in their armour and admit it. Their own ego and arrogance would see them run the airline into the ground rather than accept a fair and professional relationship with their own Pilots.

As an aside, I watched with a mixture of disbelief and cringing at the latest attempt to play catch up with easyJet, the TV commercials last night. I think O'Brien & Bellew (in their new roles in the sales & marketing dept.) must be behind this piece of Hollywood genius. Same old, same old, cheap, tacky and I'd like to see them filming at the boarding gate in STN for an Italian flight when all the pax turn up with two big cabin bags, that should make good TV!

You shall reap what you sow, and I hope O'Leary is going to be forced out sooner rather than later.

For the benefit of the Ryanair lawyers trawling PPRuNe for libel/slander, The above is all just my humble opinion of course. you very much!

[jpaul3767]

"They just decided to lower requirement for upgrade to 2400h ! Nice and easy ..."

Latest I have seen on the Base TRE desk in STN is still 2800 hours. I have heard no mention of 2400 hours. There is a lot of " someone told me this and that" but a lot of it is often not true.

In regards to shortage of Captains, I think they are in a shortage at the moment, many captains telling me they are being asked to work days off and a lot of captains telling me they are going to Etihad or Norwegian 787.

But new upgrades are being kept on as first offciers for about a month after completing the command upgrade. Strange but true and I have no idea as to the reason...

[Mr Boombastick]

This latest effort is a sign of desperation, unfortunately it hasn't been thought through enough by management and, in my opinion will have little effect.

Ryr has seen unprecedented resignations recently due to the heavy recruitment of Norweigan, now things seem to be picking up in the sandpit this will only add to their woes. The RPG have brought various things to the attention of shareholders who are now putting pressure on management to do something to stop the haemorrhaging of experienced guys to competitors.

10 eur / hr pay rise from 2400 hrs to command is a tactic to tie guys in who are just about to be eligible to apply to Etihad and Emirates.
There will be some kind of contract involved, as there is no way are they going to just give guys an extra 10 eu an hour only for them to foxtrot oscar when something better turns up.
Its also worth baring in mind that this extra pay for the 6 months or so that you are being 'coached' prior to doing the course will ultimately mean a bigger pay CUT when you take the command.
It also doesn't cover the time that you will be receiving no pay whilst in the sim and classroom on the CU course.

I think its a JAA requirement for guys to have >3000 hrs to be in command of a Jar25 aircraft. Might be completely wrong but would explain why guys are going back to the rhs for a month or so. I also heard mention that it was to work out the notice of their BRK contracts prior to going onto a RYR contract.

There is a very simple way Ryr can stop guys leaving; Introduce a fair contract for everyone where the pay is inline with competitors. And, introduce a fair and transparent basing system.

[Rushed Approach]

RYR has 3000 pilots. An attrition rate of 10% is not unexpected in any airline. This could be made up of retirements, loss of licence, moving on.

We've lost 60 in the last 3 years to retirements, leavers and lost medicals, with 550 total. I make that 3.6% a year on average.

[Depone]

An established airline with a standard workforce demographic is likely to lose a small percentage to

retirements, leavers and lost medicals

but the locos probably have a far younger average pilot age, so those categories of retirements are going to have a minimal impact, and consequently where there is a far, far higher turnover, something else must be going on.

[Say Mach Number]

For what its worth and what I was told;

Command hours are normally set by the airlines insurance company and with approval of the relevant Authority.

My previous UK airline; 2000hrs for turbo prop command

4000hrs for jet command

Reason for 4000hrs for jet was because the jet was a new type to the company.