Have around 300 pilots left RYR lately?
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Polax 52
Howdy !
Free speach is aperantly a hard to come by.
I am not shure were You have Your knowledge from, but it I the truth P52.
Some geniouses have the last 4 days aparently taken offence, most probably since thay know You are right.
Lately the irish tiger has gotten more in hot water as reshufeling in managment has resulted in severe stress to the orgenisation with regards to day to day rostering.
This is not the end, not even the beiginng to the end. But it is the end off the beginning.
Soldier on, remember Norwegian LongHaule is registered in the socalled competent IAA,,, aiming to unfairly compete against EU and US long haul.
The battel is now.
Free speach is aperantly a hard to come by.
I am not shure were You have Your knowledge from, but it I the truth P52.
Some geniouses have the last 4 days aparently taken offence, most probably since thay know You are right.
Lately the irish tiger has gotten more in hot water as reshufeling in managment has resulted in severe stress to the orgenisation with regards to day to day rostering.
This is not the end, not even the beiginng to the end. But it is the end off the beginning.
Soldier on, remember Norwegian LongHaule is registered in the socalled competent IAA,,, aiming to unfairly compete against EU and US long haul.
The battel is now.
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Whatever do you mean Dear old boy.
You represent the incompetent brit attitude we all now suffer under.
Brits are the main reason Jar ops , Jaa and Eu ops do not work.
Not because i do not bother to chec my spelling on a roumor network.
You represent the incompetent brit attitude we all now suffer under.
Brits are the main reason Jar ops , Jaa and Eu ops do not work.
Not because i do not bother to chec my spelling on a roumor network.
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BluSdUp
Norwegian (long haul) sought an AOC with Ireland for a number of reasons and light touch regulation wasn't on the list far from it.
Firstly Norway does have an open skies arrangement with Europe, but whilst that allows it to fly Norway to anywhere in Europe it does not have the same rights to fly from Europe to the US, hence the need for a European AOC, Norwegian could have used any other European country to obtain this and did indeed look at UK as well as Ireland.
Ireland has a number of advantages over other European countries in this regard, they speak english and they also use the Euro a currency in which an increasing amount of Norwegian's income is now billed, they also have low rates of corporate tax and have a long established history in aircraft finance and leasing.
The UK lost out for a number of reasons, not least is the business risk that it might leave the EU at some stage, higher taxes and currency fluctuations.
Norwegian labour laws are an heavy burden on its employers and the need to compete across Europe with Ryanair, easyJet, AirBerlin and the legacy airlines is very difficult with Norwegian social taxation.
It's worth remember that only the long haul operation of Norwegian is on an Irish AOC but of course many of Norwegians pilots work for contracting companies, but these are well known agencies and a very different set up from the one used by Ryanair often referred to as service companies.
Norwegian have of course caused a storm in labour markets in the USA and Europe, but it is difficult to see how the DOT in the US can block their route licence application to fly from Europe to the US if they are on an European AOC and thus fall within open skies agreement. I don't see an Irish AOC as a flag of convenience and there is no serious suggestion that safety is at risk. There is of course a lot of vested interest in keeping Norwegian out of these markets.
Firstly Norway does have an open skies arrangement with Europe, but whilst that allows it to fly Norway to anywhere in Europe it does not have the same rights to fly from Europe to the US, hence the need for a European AOC, Norwegian could have used any other European country to obtain this and did indeed look at UK as well as Ireland.
Ireland has a number of advantages over other European countries in this regard, they speak english and they also use the Euro a currency in which an increasing amount of Norwegian's income is now billed, they also have low rates of corporate tax and have a long established history in aircraft finance and leasing.
The UK lost out for a number of reasons, not least is the business risk that it might leave the EU at some stage, higher taxes and currency fluctuations.
Norwegian labour laws are an heavy burden on its employers and the need to compete across Europe with Ryanair, easyJet, AirBerlin and the legacy airlines is very difficult with Norwegian social taxation.
It's worth remember that only the long haul operation of Norwegian is on an Irish AOC but of course many of Norwegians pilots work for contracting companies, but these are well known agencies and a very different set up from the one used by Ryanair often referred to as service companies.
Norwegian have of course caused a storm in labour markets in the USA and Europe, but it is difficult to see how the DOT in the US can block their route licence application to fly from Europe to the US if they are on an European AOC and thus fall within open skies agreement. I don't see an Irish AOC as a flag of convenience and there is no serious suggestion that safety is at risk. There is of course a lot of vested interest in keeping Norwegian out of these markets.
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I actually do have no "skin in the game", and if you are not a Ryanair shill then I'm a fat welsh lesbian.
I'm not really sure what your weight and sexual orientation has to do with this though?
Originally Posted by first.officer
We have to be fair and say that for all the RYR faults, the company does train it's pilots very, very well, and although people are saying there are a number of incidents, I genuinely don't believe that this is in excess of the industry norm.
By what measurement, or yardstick, are Ryanair pilots trained "very, very well" above and beyond an industry standard? Or does it just sound better than saying FR crews meet the minimum requirements, along with every other carrier. That's it. This thorw-away line keeps getting propagated as some sort of justification in Ryanair's defence, so please quantify it rather than offer the usual anecdotal enthusiasm for such a statement.
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Journey man, I'll have a go at quantifying that for you with a simple analogy ...
My spaniel is trained well, we'll above normal training for a domestic animal, he comes when I call, and sits when I tell him, above all he knows who his master is and will obey every command without hesitation, thought or question. No matter how badly he is treated, he'll still turn up for work.....er I mean he'd still wag his tail.
Well trained
My spaniel is trained well, we'll above normal training for a domestic animal, he comes when I call, and sits when I tell him, above all he knows who his master is and will obey every command without hesitation, thought or question. No matter how badly he is treated, he'll still turn up for work.....er I mean he'd still wag his tail.
Well trained
Okay, that's a fair comment Journey Man,
I will admit that a certain amount of the statement is my own personal belief/feeling, but also based on knowing several of the trainers, many current RYR pilots, and working alongside ex-Ryanair employees. Their (RYR) operation on a normal daily basis will see crews exposed more readily to more NPA's than many other airlines (experience), the SOP structure is very rigid, the knowledge that is demonstrated seems to my eyes and ears, to be sound (or I'm plain thick and lack understanding - which is possible), and technical knowledge is taught to a very high standard, with excellent material from what I've seen.
The above is only said as my experience leads me to believe, and I would suggest that the above is, as mentioned, equally true at many other carriers - but this thread is in relation to RYR. Now, I'm not RYR's biggest fan I will say, and purely I base this on comments I've made previously.
I will admit that a certain amount of the statement is my own personal belief/feeling, but also based on knowing several of the trainers, many current RYR pilots, and working alongside ex-Ryanair employees. Their (RYR) operation on a normal daily basis will see crews exposed more readily to more NPA's than many other airlines (experience), the SOP structure is very rigid, the knowledge that is demonstrated seems to my eyes and ears, to be sound (or I'm plain thick and lack understanding - which is possible), and technical knowledge is taught to a very high standard, with excellent material from what I've seen.
The above is only said as my experience leads me to believe, and I would suggest that the above is, as mentioned, equally true at many other carriers - but this thread is in relation to RYR. Now, I'm not RYR's biggest fan I will say, and purely I base this on comments I've made previously.
A good response, but it's all very much subjective and I'd question whether you have experience of other carrier's training programs from which to make such a comparison?
With the NPA argument it could also be claimed that bizjet operators are therefore inherently safer due to their exposure to smaller airports.
To add balance, it cannot be subjectively argued that Ryanair standards are lower than the rest of the market either. I've no doubt the folks up the front are well trained; but likewise I'm sure your colleagues in other airlines are too.
With the NPA argument it could also be claimed that bizjet operators are therefore inherently safer due to their exposure to smaller airports.
To add balance, it cannot be subjectively argued that Ryanair standards are lower than the rest of the market either. I've no doubt the folks up the front are well trained; but likewise I'm sure your colleagues in other airlines are too.
Very true, I am basing my posts on operating at 4 different operators, with 3 being biz-jet, and the fourth being airline (just to give things a little background, and from where my perspective is based upon).
You could reasonably argue the point with biz-jet operators, agreed - although I do know that we are straying into another topic, that has numerous different points that could be raised ;-)
You could reasonably argue the point with biz-jet operators, agreed - although I do know that we are straying into another topic, that has numerous different points that could be raised ;-)
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Didnīt know the difference was that much between IAA and others RAT5. Good to be self sustaining not to bother taxpayers but the same time the word does have a rather wide meaning also.
Maybe the plan, actually i am pretty sure it is, is to to sell Ireland as a aviation hub and attract airlines and customers. Thatīs all fair enough in my book but it depends on how it is done also. Costs for pilots should be competitive thinking about all revenue pilots actually provide to the regulators especially in cases where they have to fund it themselves. Ryanair Airlines requires it contractually for whatever reason, earlier for sure, possibly still does, leaving you with no choice but to lap it up like a pussycat.
But where it getīs even more interesting is when some say the regulation is not what it could be, whereas others think it more or less deserves a spontaneous round of applause and the wave when mentioned. From my experience i am with the former not only due to the emergency exit issue earlier which make you wonder if sometimes innovation take the upper hand over safety at times. Flying around with the emergency exits unmanned because no one has paid some more money for extra legroom in combination with something happening on takeoff run requiring an evacuation make it seem that way then at least.
Bit of a chat leading to different thoughts exposed to each other and some clashes, nothing to get to tense about or playing the lawyer card for really.
I will defend this opinion also. But only if i can afford it. If i canīt - iīll issue a statement in time to the contrary.
Maybe the plan, actually i am pretty sure it is, is to to sell Ireland as a aviation hub and attract airlines and customers. Thatīs all fair enough in my book but it depends on how it is done also. Costs for pilots should be competitive thinking about all revenue pilots actually provide to the regulators especially in cases where they have to fund it themselves. Ryanair Airlines requires it contractually for whatever reason, earlier for sure, possibly still does, leaving you with no choice but to lap it up like a pussycat.
But where it getīs even more interesting is when some say the regulation is not what it could be, whereas others think it more or less deserves a spontaneous round of applause and the wave when mentioned. From my experience i am with the former not only due to the emergency exit issue earlier which make you wonder if sometimes innovation take the upper hand over safety at times. Flying around with the emergency exits unmanned because no one has paid some more money for extra legroom in combination with something happening on takeoff run requiring an evacuation make it seem that way then at least.
Bit of a chat leading to different thoughts exposed to each other and some clashes, nothing to get to tense about or playing the lawyer card for really.
I will defend this opinion also. But only if i can afford it. If i canīt - iīll issue a statement in time to the contrary.
Originally Posted by first.officer
You could reasonably argue the point with biz-jet operators, agreed - although I do know that we are straying into another topic, that has numerous different points that could be raised ;-)
For the record, it's not the argument I'm making; merely illustrating how the "NPA = better trained" argument can be extrapolated.
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journeyman
Any airline that trains 300-400 cadets per year and has an excellent safety record like Ryanair must have a very good training department IMHO.
Easyjet are in that same bracket. The training is of a very high standard there as well IMHO.
Both airlines bashing out 4 sector shifts day in day out with low experience levels in the right hand seat and sometimes in the left and in the majority without incident, doesn't happen by luck that's for certain.
Easyjet are in that same bracket. The training is of a very high standard there as well IMHO.
Both airlines bashing out 4 sector shifts day in day out with low experience levels in the right hand seat and sometimes in the left and in the majority without incident, doesn't happen by luck that's for certain.
Last edited by go around flaps15; 7th Apr 2014 at 09:22.
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GA flap 15.....
In my view, you do not understand what is happening. I realize that there is this view disseminated by Ryanair that their training is good and that they have a good safety record. I don't dispute that they have, fortunately, not had any significant accident.
The problem is the direction of movement of standards. Even easyjet appear to recognise that they need to integrate more experienced Pilots with less experienced. It seems that Ryanair and the IAA are happy to move into new territory where the majority of Pilots are very inexperienced. In addition to that the standards are not what they were 10+ years ago, when there was a significant failure rate during the initial Instrument rating, and flight test phase of commercial pilot training. That is no longer the case we have moved towards he American system from this point of view where it is just "pay and pass".
Any reasonable person would understand that as you become more experienced and have had a chance to recognize your fallibilities you become a safer pilot. It is therefore clear that pushing the boundaries of less experience is a very dangerous move.
If you add to that the fact that Ryanair use "dirty tricks" to prevent the Pilots from becoming unionized, something that the majority want to do and is a legal right in all countries where Ryanair have Pilots based, you further reduce safety. Unions are involved in much more than negotiating pay, they are involved in all sorts of safety matters from the effects of volcanic ash on engines to solar radiation and it's effect on crew, many many other things in between.
I don't believe that as a Pilot you should be defending this kind of operation, especially when it comes to an Airline which is very profitable and that consists of what will maybe be 400+ aircraft in a few years.
In my view, you do not understand what is happening. I realize that there is this view disseminated by Ryanair that their training is good and that they have a good safety record. I don't dispute that they have, fortunately, not had any significant accident.
The problem is the direction of movement of standards. Even easyjet appear to recognise that they need to integrate more experienced Pilots with less experienced. It seems that Ryanair and the IAA are happy to move into new territory where the majority of Pilots are very inexperienced. In addition to that the standards are not what they were 10+ years ago, when there was a significant failure rate during the initial Instrument rating, and flight test phase of commercial pilot training. That is no longer the case we have moved towards he American system from this point of view where it is just "pay and pass".
Any reasonable person would understand that as you become more experienced and have had a chance to recognize your fallibilities you become a safer pilot. It is therefore clear that pushing the boundaries of less experience is a very dangerous move.
If you add to that the fact that Ryanair use "dirty tricks" to prevent the Pilots from becoming unionized, something that the majority want to do and is a legal right in all countries where Ryanair have Pilots based, you further reduce safety. Unions are involved in much more than negotiating pay, they are involved in all sorts of safety matters from the effects of volcanic ash on engines to solar radiation and it's effect on crew, many many other things in between.
I don't believe that as a Pilot you should be defending this kind of operation, especially when it comes to an Airline which is very profitable and that consists of what will maybe be 400+ aircraft in a few years.
Last edited by polax52; 7th Apr 2014 at 13:01.
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This thread has gone so far off topic it is ridiculous! Has anyone anymore information regarding the amount of pilots coming and going from Ryanair to try bring this once extremely informative and interesting thread back on topic!! Thanks Guys
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Ryanair probably does have a good training department purely because it doesn't cost the company money. The poor sods "employed" by FR are paying for the pleasure of training there. If it actually cost FR money to train pilots and they were not making a profit on it I think you'd see a bit more scrimping and saving in the training department.
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Journey man I'll quantify it for you.
In part because it cost FR nothing to train it's pilots there is no commercial pressure in training terms, money talks, Ryanair are one of very few people taking 200 hour people and their parents 30k and they can and do pick and choose ( Ryanair that is!!!)
The majority are very clued up and see Ryanair for what it is warts and all, their objective is get well trained, get a 1000+ hours and get out! it's really that simple and to date that has suited Ryanair as well, their SOP discipline is very very strict and needs to be to stay safe.
I regularly fly with ex FR pilots and yes there are stories, but I can't substantiate them so I won't repeat them, are they better than the average, the answer is yes and I can say that objectively, the lemons don't make the cut at FR it's that simple/brutal know pilots in Jet2, Mon, Norwegian,BA,easyJet, Eastern who have needed a lot of extra training to scrape through line checks.
The one failing that some ex FR pilots have is they believe in their own propaganda , they think they are the dogs
,a lot of that is not surprising when you get command at 24 years old
Every airline has it's there by the grace of God cock ups and FR is no different, but given the sectors flown and the type of approaches involved I'd wager it's less, just have a look at Aviation herald website to see the daily number of cock ups.
As for GA pilots being better because they make more NPA your having a laugh, they are not doing it in a 60t airliner down to minima with approach speeds of 145knts in foul weather
I'm not singing FR as a company, I think they are crap to fly with and work for, but their safety is top notch, it's a credit to both the pilots and the training department
The majority are very clued up and see Ryanair for what it is warts and all, their objective is get well trained, get a 1000+ hours and get out! it's really that simple and to date that has suited Ryanair as well, their SOP discipline is very very strict and needs to be to stay safe.
I regularly fly with ex FR pilots and yes there are stories, but I can't substantiate them so I won't repeat them, are they better than the average, the answer is yes and I can say that objectively, the lemons don't make the cut at FR it's that simple/brutal know pilots in Jet2, Mon, Norwegian,BA,easyJet, Eastern who have needed a lot of extra training to scrape through line checks.
The one failing that some ex FR pilots have is they believe in their own propaganda , they think they are the dogs
,a lot of that is not surprising when you get command at 24 years oldEvery airline has it's there by the grace of God cock ups and FR is no different, but given the sectors flown and the type of approaches involved I'd wager it's less, just have a look at Aviation herald website to see the daily number of cock ups.
As for GA pilots being better because they make more NPA your having a laugh, they are not doing it in a 60t airliner down to minima with approach speeds of 145knts in foul weather
I'm not singing FR as a company, I think they are crap to fly with and work for, but their safety is top notch, it's a credit to both the pilots and the training department