Orange diarrhoea
Join Date: Mar 2007
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I personally took the debt before the financial crisis started. When I did my homework, the guys leaving CTC could pick between easy, thomas cook, monarch or BA to select for after finishing.
WWW was aware of the crisis coming and was warning people but to be fair, this forum has NEVER said "this is a good time to go for it".
I made my choice when the goalpost was a permanent contract from day one and the loan repayments were included in the salary, also TR was free and included. With this in mind I committed to the scheme. I would have gladly stayed in the UK if the contract even resembled what the guys got before 07.
The newer guys, the guys you'll see in a few years, yeah, they're insane because they got into this knowing that Flexiscrew was the end goal.
WWW was aware of the crisis coming and was warning people but to be fair, this forum has NEVER said "this is a good time to go for it".
I made my choice when the goalpost was a permanent contract from day one and the loan repayments were included in the salary, also TR was free and included. With this in mind I committed to the scheme. I would have gladly stayed in the UK if the contract even resembled what the guys got before 07.
The newer guys, the guys you'll see in a few years, yeah, they're insane because they got into this knowing that Flexiscrew was the end goal.
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Just to emphasise - I am not talking about a future with flexicrew in any form - I am talking about a probationary period of 6 months to a year after which you are given a permanent contract. The terminology used to describe that is of no consequence.
It really is not helpful to pillory the flexicrew guys for making the choice they did. On one level it is true that any budding pilot, with our without CTC, who invests heavily in his own training needs to go into it with his eyes wide open. A low-houred commercial pilot is the kicking-boy of the industry - that has been the case since the dawn of aviation. As we all know, we take any job we can when you come out of training and hope to work your way up the greasy pole. In the past those jobs were single engine piston flying instruction, light twin flying if you were fortunate or flying RHS in a turboprop if you were really lucky. That has changed now and you can hardly blame a budding pilot for going where the jobs are - ie easyJet, Ryanair etc. Frankly, if I were in their position I would do the same. I personally have no problem with them 'paying their dues' on low wages and long hours IF there is a clear way of escape as time goes by.
I see any likely solution to the current impasse involving a multi-layered approach. The simple fact is that young people are getting access to jet jobs straight out of training that most could not have dreamt of a few years ago. Therefore we will have to be creative in our approach to the solution. We are just not going to get a repeat of the current terms and conditions for the flexicrew guys - it is simply not going to happen. What we can get is a staged increase in salaries and conditions (but permanent as soon as the probationary period is complete). The final salary terms and conditions should be the same as the top of the range at the moment. That to me is a reasonable compromise that gives the Company somewhere to go in reducing costs and us a victory in protecting the SFO terms and conditions. As far as I can tell we are still a very long way from achieving that, but that is where I see the end result lying. There is also the question of keeping the 5/3/5/4 roster pattern - if the Company have their way that will disappear forever. Whilst recognising the need for 'flexibility', we can offer a few years on FRV before graduating onto fixed-pattern rostering as slots become available. There are a multitude of possibilities but it will require a bit of compromise from the Company to achieve it.
It really is not helpful to pillory the flexicrew guys for making the choice they did. On one level it is true that any budding pilot, with our without CTC, who invests heavily in his own training needs to go into it with his eyes wide open. A low-houred commercial pilot is the kicking-boy of the industry - that has been the case since the dawn of aviation. As we all know, we take any job we can when you come out of training and hope to work your way up the greasy pole. In the past those jobs were single engine piston flying instruction, light twin flying if you were fortunate or flying RHS in a turboprop if you were really lucky. That has changed now and you can hardly blame a budding pilot for going where the jobs are - ie easyJet, Ryanair etc. Frankly, if I were in their position I would do the same. I personally have no problem with them 'paying their dues' on low wages and long hours IF there is a clear way of escape as time goes by.
I see any likely solution to the current impasse involving a multi-layered approach. The simple fact is that young people are getting access to jet jobs straight out of training that most could not have dreamt of a few years ago. Therefore we will have to be creative in our approach to the solution. We are just not going to get a repeat of the current terms and conditions for the flexicrew guys - it is simply not going to happen. What we can get is a staged increase in salaries and conditions (but permanent as soon as the probationary period is complete). The final salary terms and conditions should be the same as the top of the range at the moment. That to me is a reasonable compromise that gives the Company somewhere to go in reducing costs and us a victory in protecting the SFO terms and conditions. As far as I can tell we are still a very long way from achieving that, but that is where I see the end result lying. There is also the question of keeping the 5/3/5/4 roster pattern - if the Company have their way that will disappear forever. Whilst recognising the need for 'flexibility', we can offer a few years on FRV before graduating onto fixed-pattern rostering as slots become available. There are a multitude of possibilities but it will require a bit of compromise from the Company to achieve it.
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I wasn't pillorying anyone, just pointing out that these guys volunteered to be where they are. No one made them do it, they chose to take a £100,000 gamble of their own free will and accord. Despite some peoples' views flying isn't the only career out there, there are thousands of others to choose from. If a gambler punts a fortune and loses should he grumble? Hell! Why - how can he? He chose to gamble. Caveat Emptor. But these guys aren't the losers, they're the winners in this unholy and unethical swindle. The losers are the ones with £100,000 debt and NO job and there are plenty of them out there though we hear nothing from them. The ones we seem so concerned about are the ones who won, the ones who did get a job. Why are we so sorry for them if their win at the £100,000 gamble didn't turn out to be quite as fast a payback expected? Though I should add that in my experience few of them do grumble - it's us - the permanent people in the UK alone who have taken up the cudgels on their behalf over this which baffles me as we seem to be neglecting our own welfare which as I illustrated above is so far out of kilter with our other permanent (ie Easyjet employee, not contractor) colleagues that it beggars belief.
I'm not running these guys down and I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned and help them if we can but I think we have bigger fish to fry and we should be looking to our own problems before we get too involved with those of others who could be organising themselves to get out of a pickle they got themselves into. But not one hundredth as bad a pickle as those with vast debts who weren't selected and have no job at all. Are we going to start looking after them too?
I'm not running these guys down and I'm not saying we shouldn't be concerned and help them if we can but I think we have bigger fish to fry and we should be looking to our own problems before we get too involved with those of others who could be organising themselves to get out of a pickle they got themselves into. But not one hundredth as bad a pickle as those with vast debts who weren't selected and have no job at all. Are we going to start looking after them too?
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Catch22. By looking after them you maintain or promote a unionised workforce which ultimately will benefit all crews going forward. Ignore them and you marginalise your existing crews in the long run. That's before you begin to address the other significant issues about zero hour contracts such as FO's reporting unfit for duty, the emotional baggage they often inadvertently bring to the flight deck and the subsequent stress it places on captains.
Yes there are plenty out there in an even worse position but you have to deal with the issues on your own doorstep first.
Yes there are plenty out there in an even worse position but you have to deal with the issues on your own doorstep first.
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Wageslave, your opinion disgusts me.
That kind of thinking is selfish and will not improve neither the flexi guys nor your own T's and C's.
As I said in my previous post which you clearly haven't read. Most of the guys in the flight deck with you today got the debt when the end goal was something a lot more rewarding. Up until late 2007, every CTC cadet who finished training ended up with a nice permanent contract and the bond repayments were included in the salary. Allowing you to make a relatively sensible financial planning.
Things changed between these guys training and finishing and here we are today. Talk to the guys who you fly with and ask them why they did it, they will probably have some sensible answers.
And what's this about there being other careers? Are you saying that nobody should attempt to be a commercial pilot nowadays? What about having a calling or being passionate about what you're doing?
The costs of training are prohibitive so a newly graduate guy with a dream needs to take some risks. Before this flexicrew malarkey there was TRSS, before that there was bonding, etc.. etc... This is just an escalation to ever decreasing terms and conditions.
They are YOUR terms and conditions too even if you can't see it.
That kind of thinking is selfish and will not improve neither the flexi guys nor your own T's and C's.
As I said in my previous post which you clearly haven't read. Most of the guys in the flight deck with you today got the debt when the end goal was something a lot more rewarding. Up until late 2007, every CTC cadet who finished training ended up with a nice permanent contract and the bond repayments were included in the salary. Allowing you to make a relatively sensible financial planning.
Things changed between these guys training and finishing and here we are today. Talk to the guys who you fly with and ask them why they did it, they will probably have some sensible answers.
And what's this about there being other careers? Are you saying that nobody should attempt to be a commercial pilot nowadays? What about having a calling or being passionate about what you're doing?
The costs of training are prohibitive so a newly graduate guy with a dream needs to take some risks. Before this flexicrew malarkey there was TRSS, before that there was bonding, etc.. etc... This is just an escalation to ever decreasing terms and conditions.
They are YOUR terms and conditions too even if you can't see it.
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[quote]I constantly pick up changes, rarely keep any standbys, not has any summer leave. I have requested part time only to be told your on the list.[quote]
As good as it gets - you mean no summer leave as in 6 months of summer as defined by a seasonal programme or no summer as in 6 weeks peak school hols.
The simple answer to the fatigue would be a managed roster under part time.
Presume also you live near LGW
As good as it gets - you mean no summer leave as in 6 months of summer as defined by a seasonal programme or no summer as in 6 weeks peak school hols.
The simple answer to the fatigue would be a managed roster under part time.
Presume also you live near LGW
Last edited by Mr Angry from Purley; 22nd Dec 2012 at 09:14.
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I am very dualistic when it comes to the cadets. Yes they took a risk, so I do not lie awake at night pondering their financial troubles.
On the other hand, once these cadets become my colleagues, there is no reason to treat them badly and there is every reason to make sure that our management does not take advantage of them to undermine our profession. We have a responsibility to ourselves (not the cadets) to stop the rot before it spreads.
On the other hand, once these cadets become my colleagues, there is no reason to treat them badly and there is every reason to make sure that our management does not take advantage of them to undermine our profession. We have a responsibility to ourselves (not the cadets) to stop the rot before it spreads.
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Like Penko, I do not lie awake at night contemplating each individual cadet's financial affairs. I was in a much worse position at their stage and was married with two children. Nonetheless, we ignore this issue at our peril. We have to recognise that times have changed and that the new joiners are following the only way into the industry. If we leave huge numbers of non-easyJet employees working for the Company we will soon be unable to negotiate and be Ryanair with orange tails. We have a real opportunity to put easyJet pilots in easyJet cockpits and we should not deviate from that requirement or reduce ourselves to petty bickering. This is today's battle and we simply cannot afford to lose it as we are in the strongest position we can ever be - it is downhill from here if we do not push home our advantage. I believe that the Company wants a solution as much as we do - they just want different terms and conditions! I have absolutely nothing to gain personally from this battle, but our industry has everything to lose if we fail. Put simply, this is everyone's concern and if you want to finish your career on the same terms and conditions, let alone better, then you want to get behind BALPA right now. Failure to act now will bite every single pilot at easyJet in a big way in very short order - don't say you were not warned.
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I have absolutely nothing to gain personally from this battle, but our industry has everything to lose if we fail. Put simply, this is everyone's concern and if you want to finish your career on the same terms and conditions, let alone better, then you want to get behind BALPA right now. Failure to act now will bite every single pilot at easyJet in a big way in very short order - don't say you were not warned.
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''As good as it gets'" - you've started a good thread, but I don't believe you work for Easyjet. In fact, I have serious doubts that you are a pilot.
Tell us about the "props" and the "heavy jets" you flew before you went Orange. Also, I suggest you get a dictionary for Xmas.
Tell us about the "props" and the "heavy jets" you flew before you went Orange. Also, I suggest you get a dictionary for Xmas.
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I went through self funded / modular route and finished with almost no debt, but it took sometime to get through everything with this in mind.
By the time i finished, CTC become the road block as they had the contracts to supply their cadets along with Flexicrew. Airlines would not advertise jobs that myself and others would like to apply for at the lower end with some experience / hours. Much of it because of the CTC / OAA type of organisations with their contracts with the airlines.
I am guessing those with turboprop experience in the likes of Flybe and other A to A operators or similar, that want to move onto a jet at Easyjet or other operators are also stuck being more expensive and non rated.
Perhaps BALPA need to do produce some leaflets for those wanting to go into flight training with some of the facts, whilst trying to challenge some operators T&C's.
More recently the BA future first officer program, those of us who had licenses at the bottom with some experience, could not even apply. At the same time BA were re-advertising the program, they had pilots from other airlines in their hold pool who were dropped that went through all the BA selection processes in the prior 12 - 18 months. So quite a few things in this industry about pilot recruitment and T&C's are screwed up.
By the time i finished, CTC become the road block as they had the contracts to supply their cadets along with Flexicrew. Airlines would not advertise jobs that myself and others would like to apply for at the lower end with some experience / hours. Much of it because of the CTC / OAA type of organisations with their contracts with the airlines.
I am guessing those with turboprop experience in the likes of Flybe and other A to A operators or similar, that want to move onto a jet at Easyjet or other operators are also stuck being more expensive and non rated.
Perhaps BALPA need to do produce some leaflets for those wanting to go into flight training with some of the facts, whilst trying to challenge some operators T&C's.
More recently the BA future first officer program, those of us who had licenses at the bottom with some experience, could not even apply. At the same time BA were re-advertising the program, they had pilots from other airlines in their hold pool who were dropped that went through all the BA selection processes in the prior 12 - 18 months. So quite a few things in this industry about pilot recruitment and T&C's are screwed up.
Last edited by turbine100; 22nd Dec 2012 at 19:06.
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Not much to think about.
I'm sure he will remain totally impartial , and will not slap his colleagues in the face by assuming managerial position ,like LC ( I think LC is short for Lucifer
) , after all you've got to look after number 1.
A can of worms I tell you.
I'm sure he will remain totally impartial , and will not slap his colleagues in the face by assuming managerial position ,like LC ( I think LC is short for Lucifer
) , after all you've got to look after number 1.A can of worms I tell you.
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Thank you guys for your continued PM S and words of support and advice, which I will respond to in due course.
It's a shame, there are so many good people that could really make a difference in the company. If only the company was a bit more flexible and would treat us as the professionals that we are, they would get so much more in return, but the harder they hit us, the less flexible we become.
I can only see things getting worse from here on in. New entrant contracts to follow, and this is only the start of it.
LC, how can she show her face in a packed crew room, I wouldn't personally have the nerve, maybe because the majority of us are human and would not take a dump on the rest of us from a great height. My personal thoughts are that the company has used her to there advantage, and she will not progress any further, because lets face it She really is a very expensive base secretary who is told what to do and say from further up the food chain, I thought a HR system like BOB would be more cost effective.
Safe flying everyone, happy Xmas too.
It's a shame, there are so many good people that could really make a difference in the company. If only the company was a bit more flexible and would treat us as the professionals that we are, they would get so much more in return, but the harder they hit us, the less flexible we become.
I can only see things getting worse from here on in. New entrant contracts to follow, and this is only the start of it.
LC, how can she show her face in a packed crew room, I wouldn't personally have the nerve, maybe because the majority of us are human and would not take a dump on the rest of us from a great height. My personal thoughts are that the company has used her to there advantage, and she will not progress any further, because lets face it She really is a very expensive base secretary who is told what to do and say from further up the food chain, I thought a HR system like BOB would be more cost effective.
Safe flying everyone, happy Xmas too.