More easyJet Pilot Slavery Deals - Oxford Aviation Academy

[shaun ryder]

May I remind the above thats it's not his livelihood that is under threat. It is not his career prospects which are being threatened by this pay to fly nonsense.

[oapilot]

On the other hand, I would ask, does it really make a difference?
Those that 'pay' for a position with a certain airline (no names, generally speaking), deserve exactly what they receive...and from some of the comments here, it ain't much.
The airline flying profession is what it is, no more, no less.
No 'experience'?
Up sh!te creek without a paddle.
Pay up...or do without.
EOM.
Those with extensive Command experience (especially on certain types) demand (and get) what they want.
TRE/IRE's included.
I'm one of the few remaining on the L1011, so...I name my price...and I get it.
No questions asked, nor expected.
As it should be, in my considered opinion.

IF...you are on the bottom of the airline ladder...prepare to pay through the nose...or, go elsewhere.
Airlines don't care.
I don't care, either.

411A, I'm surprised that someone who often talks sense has such an attitude on this. One of the reasons this industry is in the state it's in is the apathy towards the broader picture, based on "I'm alright Jack, so screw you." You are fortunate in that you fly an obsolete type so you can demand pretty much what you want. Good for you. But to revel in the fact that so many of your colleagues around the globe are seeing a lot of hard work and effort bought to nothing? Would your attitude be the same if you were driving a bus or boeing and maybe had a few more years to go before drawing your pension?
Probably not, but that's self service for you.

[one post only!]

The thing is its easy to not give a toss when you are in a safe and secure position watching the world crumble around you. Its a deep human trait and one that explains why the world is in such a mess.

Not caring about those that are being screwed over while you drive around in your L1011 demanding what you want is not dissimilar to turning the other cheek and driving by while someone is attacked on the street next to your car. Its why this industry is screwed. And the human race come to think of it. Only a few people will stop and get out of their cars to help. There won't be enough to make a difference. The rest will drive on by either making clucking noises about what a shame it is or just mutter well thats life, no more no less, it wasn't me so I don't care!

[clanger32]

Shaun,
Granted, my current career is not affected by what happens to/because of PTF. However, it remains my goal to fly for a living and a huge part of that is that there are reasonable Ts&Cs to be had if/when in that seat. Neither do I wish to "pay" for the opportunity. Nothing would give me greater pleasure than to apply -and be selected - for a job where the TR was paid and I went straight in on a full salary. This means that I AM a stakeholder, even if only indirectly at this point.

However, I'm not sure what you want me - as someone currently outside the industry - or anyone else who is qualified yet unemployed, to do about Ts&Cs? You rightly make the point that it IS your career that is threatened....so why are you doing nothing about it and blaming me instead? Fight your own corner, in doing so you help me and all the others like me longer term - there'll be no shortage of people like me who will back you in any way I can if you do this. But don't come whinging perpetually about the degradation pf Ts&Cs and expecting me to just "do nothing" about my own career aspirations to protect yours, if you won't protect your own. THIS is the point.

[TheBeak]

May I remind the above thats it's not his livelihood that is under threat. It is not his career prospects which are being threatened by this pay to fly nonsense.

If you are refering to me with that comment then believe me it is.

What the flying F... thinks that this qualifies you to know anything at all about anything. Neither of you are even expert in being alive yet.
Beak...I tried to politely warn you before, but you don't seem able to take the hint. Consider how seriously you'd take the views of some poor little rich kid that got some serious breaks in life the way you have Beak, if they were 10+ years younger than you. 24 is exactly the age where you think you know it all, but actually know sod all. Consider how you'd react to someone of 12/13 making the statements you continually spout as fact.

It's amazing how you chose to believe the bits you read that fit your mental picture. I doubt wanabe is 20 and he doesn't write like a 20 year old. Even if he is 20 believe me the sum total of our ages is not 44. AND I earned my money, I didn't ponce it off my parents so the rich kid bit is irrelevant.

These 20 are NOT the enemy

Yes they are. Without the player there is no game. Literally. I don't hate drug dealers, I hate drug takers. I can't blame people for wanting to make easy money be they drug dealers, EasyJet, OAA, CTC or Prostitutes for that matter - a nice sh1t sandwich for you. Why because I would do the same if I was them. But I wouldn't and AM NOT doing the same as these '20 Oxford morons' as they shall hence forth be known. Shall we stop all alcohol sales so that alcholics can't buy it? Shall we stop all food so that people don't get obese? Do you see what I mean? If the fat bastards or the alcoholics would just stop then the problem is stopped. You'll never stop the supply until you stop the demand - it's one of natures laws.

You tell me why, given their FTOs links with a Ryanair training supplier, their ability to pay for a TR and their 'apparent quality' in that they can pass a BA selection, they haven't applied to Ryanair long before now for a much better, stronger contract with much better Ts and Cs? I'll tell you why, because you are allowing your emotional relationship (in that you are linked by Oxford or friendship or just because you too were tempted by this monstrosity) to cloud your judgement of things. These guys and girls are the problem. It takes two to tango, they were on our side of the fence and have effectively absconded from what we all know is right and sided with the 'enemy'.

You position yourself as somewhat intelligent - act like it.

I don't position myself in anyway - not actively at the very least. I say things how I understand them. Intelligence is not knowing something it is the ability to understand concepts and situations. It is inherent in ones self whether you are 20, 40 or 60. Time will rarely enhance it significatly. Some will always take off on tangents. By your acknowledgement of my intelligence you sub conciously at least know I understand the situation. And I do. The '20 Oxford morons' are the route cause, they have fallen for the trap, been seduced by the sirens and have taken the bait like a basic fish. They are very low in the food chain and will be eaten up and shat out. They are worthless - hence their need to pay to fly.

Of course training captains wont not fly with the '20 Oxford morons' because we ask them to anonymously on here, why would they. In the most part they have achieved their position through hard work, skill and luck. They don't owe us it. They do owe their families a living and I'd urge them to do what's best for them. Because they have earned the right to. Completeing a frankly easy integrated training course and squandering an eye watering amount of your parents money hasn't earned you the right to do anything. And thus often peopel do not do anything.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its misplaced to have a go at the training captains.

I'm not one. I'm a very plain vanilla captain. However, the 10 -15% extra pay you get as a training captain is a sizeable deal. You can't jeopardize it by refusing and choosing who you fly with. If you tried that on then you'd be taking unofficial industrial action. You could be fired and sued for costs arising from your actions. You'd certainly give yourself a 10 - 15% pay cut at the very least.

Training captains train. They don't set industrial relations policy nor recruitment strategy. They just volunteer to fly with crap trainees, offer advice and fill in the paperwork afterwards. Its not glamorous, they are readily replaceable and they have no control over anything not connected to the aircraft they are currently strapped to.

WWW

[puma230]

I agree WWW but then I would as an EZY trainer. WE dont make policy but we are willing to give our views and I can reassure everyone that at recent training meetings management were left in no doubt to our views on the subject. I wish we had the power to stop this abuse but we don't, we train period! As a dept we are fighting our own battles with a company that continues to bang on about a TC surplus despite the fact that part-time trainers are being asked back and the training period is extending virtually by the day. If anything we are short of numbers.

The problem is that EZY has lost sight of what it is and what it does. We have a management whose only strategy is to copy Ryanair no matter what the long term cost to our reputation......utterly clueless!

[aslan1982]

Beak do you actually have a job as a pilot?

You seem very angry/depressed!!

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

TheBeak - your logic seems somewhat flawed. To say that you have no problem with drug dealers but you have a problem with drug takers is frankly ludicrous and says a great deal about you. I understand why gullible young people are being sucked in by this deal, but it does not change the fact that it is a shameful situation. Also, to suggest that Trainers should refuse to train is again ridiculous. Trainers are employed to train whoever is put in front of them and would rightly be disciplined for refusing to carry out their contracted duties. The answer lies with BALPA who are trying their best in enormously difficult circumstances.

[TheBeak]

Also, to suggest that Trainers should refuse to train is again ridiculous.

I didn't suggest this at all. I said:

Of course training captains wont not fly with the '20 Oxford morons' because we ask them to anonymously on here, why would they. In the most part they have achieved their position through hard work, skill and luck. They don't owe us it. They do owe their families a living and I'd urge them to do what's best for them. Because they have earned the right to.

As for my logic seeming flawed, how about you don't focus on the more negative points. My drug dealer/ taker analogy is a 'shock tactic' to try and spell out in laymans terms my ultimate point, that the trainees are at fault. Why?

You'll never stop the supply until you stop the demand - it's one of natures laws.

If you disagree, prove me wrong. The only difference is we aren't dealing with addicts (who if the truth be told I do have some sympathy for), we are dealing with impatient little gimps. And let's not confuse the CTC deal with this disgrace of an Oxford deal - I am talking about the situation that Oxford trainees are choosing to be in.

Capiche?

[clanger32]

NSF - I agree with much of what you, WWW and Puma230 have to say. The logic is indefatigable. But I would counter with "if not them, then who?". Balpa - and I'm actually totally agnostic on their value, so not trying to knock them - have done NOTHING to date to stop this....indeed it seems from the outside that instead of improving things, they've only been steadily degrading to this point, where a temp contract on a P(massively over the top)TF basis is the deal available.

Meanwhile, all the time training costs rise pressuring the need for the newbie to get a career on the road = adding pressure to take these deals.

MY (capitals deliberately) overall point is that time and time and time again the clarion call comes that this problem is solely of the newbies making. Yet, all we see is the situation getting worse despite the massive majority of newly qualified pilots NOT taking these schemes on. Several more sensible captains have heeded that this isn't as a result of people trying to enter the profession (NSF for one notable exception), but the issue is and HAS TO BE "if you don't stand up for your own career, why do you expect anyone else to do so for you?"

So I respect - truly - what you three gentlemen (apologies - massive assumption there!) have achieved and the experience you have, but time and again it's "it's not my problem", or "I'll be going against my contract", or "we're just doing our job" - so how DO we stop this? Wait for an attack of conscience from the airlines? Hardly likely. Wait for [enough] smoking holes in the ground to force legislation? Well, I hope you're confident enough in your own abilities that it won't be you or any of your friends in the LHS of the a/c that makes that hole.

It's already at the point where a simple "pay for your type rating and get a job" seems a bloody good deal. But if people won't force the issue, I'm struggling to see how it's going to get fixed. Longer term, it inevitably leads to pay for command and the detriments that brings to training and LHS positions....food for thought.

[Caudillo]

Beak do you actually have a job as a pilot?

You seem very angry/depressed!!

That probably means the answer's yes.

And Clanger32, none of use are going to fix it. We're all too wrapped up for now arguing the relative merits of Little Rich Kids vs honest 'ard workin' coal dust-blackened-faced ex-airtaxi pilots.

[mikehammer]

Balpa - and I'm actually totally agnostic on their value, so not trying to knock them - have done NOTHING to date to stop this....indeed it seems from the outside that instead of improving things, they've only been steadily degrading to this point, where a temp contract on a P(massively over the top)TF basis is the deal available.

Why is this? In theory Balpa represents all of us, at least those who are members. In a way, Balpa is us. To take unionism to its fundamental simplicity, it is a mechanism to strengthen the individual who may be exploited by their employer, and the strength comes from democratic collectivism. Collectively the union should therefore be going through a process of discussion, negotiation and then action, if that is the will of the membership. Before action, the membership must be balloted.

Is any of this happening and at what point did it stop and why? Or is that too naive and simplistic?

I fear the answer may lie somewhere here:

We're all too wrapped up for now arguing the relative merits of Little Rich Kids vs honest 'ard workin' coal dust-blackened-faced ex-airtaxi pilots.

[B-HVY]

Quote:
Also, to suggest that Trainers should refuse to train is again ridiculous.

I didn't suggest this at all.

No? I think if you go back a few pages on this thread you will see different.

Originally Posted by TheBeak

[...]will the trainers at Easyjet PLEASE refuse to train these tools[...]

[FRying]

Enough talking.

When are the planes grounded ? Most people only need to hear that blow in the whistle.

(And I'm not talking about EZ only).

[TheBeak]

No? I think if you go back a few pages on this thread you will see different.

Yeah you're only as good as your last smart ar5e and the last thing I said upon listenting to people on here, thinking about the situation and speaking to work colleagues was:

Of course training captains wont not fly with the '20 Oxford morons' because we ask them to anonymously on here, why would they. In the most part they have achieved their position through hard work, skill and luck. They don't owe us it. They do owe their families a living and I'd urge them to do what's best for them. Because they have earned the right to.

So for Normy to try and claim that something I said is ridiculous when it patently obviously has changed since the comment he is talking about, is itself ridiculous. In fact I have said it two or three times since then.

[Mike Rosewhich]

If the regulator is happy to issue them with a licence to operate the aircraft and the insurance company is happy to cover them what case can be used to fight it. As far as I can see only a hypothetical threat to our T&C's. That is all Balpa has, and without, I suspect, a majority of the workforce's support.

You can try and build a case on safety but good luck with that, especially as any one of us could all be subject to an accident with a small amount of misfortune.

Three things will stop this:

1. A change of regulation (as per the FAA)
2. Public demand (most people don't care)
3. Supply / Demand rebalancing (most likely)
4. An accident (very unlikely not to mention unpalatable)

The union have very little power to stop it unless we all agree to walk out...

[Pizzaro]

Who are these people who are putting themselves through training when the industry is in this state? Have they no common sense? No wonder the airlines are taking advantage. These schemes can only work because there are desperate people out there. T &C's for all pilots will be driven down by this , come on BALPA the silence is deafening !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[High-higher]

Actually to be fair, training and all included, it probably takes 2 years from the day of application to the job searching stage, so all the cadets that were streaming out of the schools in 09 and 08 probably applied when the industry was in a pretty good state.

And all the current applicants will be thinking that in 2 years time jobs will be on the up again, so the stream will never stop really.

[Pizzaro]

But the warning signs were there , credit crunch etc. Am sure Willie Walsh was saying things were going to get tough all that time ago. Thomson have been talking about redudancies for over a year now. Surely you've got to keep your finger on the pulse before investing over £100k. Remember there's no such a thing of a guarenteed job, not even from CTC.

P.