Do BA pilots really deserve our support re Openskys?
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The open skies contract is doing the rounds courtesey of a no thank you type.
Anyone who has signed that is truly desperate or an indication of the generation that are simultaneously inheritng and destroying this industry.
It makes RYR look like manor from heaven.
I know the word scab is innapropiate in this context, but its not needed. What is the point of living in a free society if you are willing to sign all your rights away. In my opinion absolutely shocking exploitative and more akin to a workhouse agreement. unbelievable abdication of ones dignity and profession.
Anal prostitute would be more appropiate
Anyone who has signed that is truly desperate or an indication of the generation that are simultaneously inheritng and destroying this industry.
It makes RYR look like manor from heaven.
I know the word scab is innapropiate in this context, but its not needed. What is the point of living in a free society if you are willing to sign all your rights away. In my opinion absolutely shocking exploitative and more akin to a workhouse agreement. unbelievable abdication of ones dignity and profession.
Anal prostitute would be more appropiate
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4468 - thanks for taking the time to put together you reply to my earlier questions.
The connecting market from Paris etc to LHR is a debatable point as with that logic it would be difficult for any BA subsidary to fly from anywhere to the US if there was flight via LHR which could connect with a BA mainline service. Whilst there maybe an impact on BA transit pax numbers, the biggest threat with OS would be to Air France at CDG or any other major airline based at the origin airport; eg. LH in FRA or MUN but that supposedly is what competition is all about.
One of the most significant problems facing BA in my opinion is LHR itself - the way I look at it, LHR is such a horrible airport compared to many other major hubs in Europe and given a choice of going transatlantic from eg. AMS or LHR, I'd certainly not choose to connect through LHR and would go direct from AMS.
As far as the OS T's and C's are concerned I don't think they are as bad as some of the posts here suggest and many pilots flying jets with UK operators now would find them an improvement - can you blame these guys for being interested in the jobs?
The connecting market from Paris etc to LHR is a debatable point as with that logic it would be difficult for any BA subsidary to fly from anywhere to the US if there was flight via LHR which could connect with a BA mainline service. Whilst there maybe an impact on BA transit pax numbers, the biggest threat with OS would be to Air France at CDG or any other major airline based at the origin airport; eg. LH in FRA or MUN but that supposedly is what competition is all about.
One of the most significant problems facing BA in my opinion is LHR itself - the way I look at it, LHR is such a horrible airport compared to many other major hubs in Europe and given a choice of going transatlantic from eg. AMS or LHR, I'd certainly not choose to connect through LHR and would go direct from AMS.
As far as the OS T's and C's are concerned I don't think they are as bad as some of the posts here suggest and many pilots flying jets with UK operators now would find them an improvement - can you blame these guys for being interested in the jobs?
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Hi all,
Very interesting thread. I was wondering when BALPA will be taking a "robust" position with regard to SSTR and line training?
Just been looking at an advert on this website for SSTR + line training at £30000 to £40000 with no pay, not even sector pay. http://www.simulator-experience.com/ HURRY ONLY 32 PLACES THIS YEAR !!!
It seems to me that BALPA only gets involved when it concerns BA and not the wider aviation community. Quite ironic really as most of the new FO's will be coming from the Low Cost Airlines who have paid for all their training.
No "Union" position on these people? After all these people (under duress in trying to get a job) have lowered T & C's.
Anyway, I don't think OS will make it off the ground. We're already in recession and the first thing to be cut is air travel.
Orvil
Very interesting thread. I was wondering when BALPA will be taking a "robust" position with regard to SSTR and line training?
Just been looking at an advert on this website for SSTR + line training at £30000 to £40000 with no pay, not even sector pay. http://www.simulator-experience.com/ HURRY ONLY 32 PLACES THIS YEAR !!!
It seems to me that BALPA only gets involved when it concerns BA and not the wider aviation community. Quite ironic really as most of the new FO's will be coming from the Low Cost Airlines who have paid for all their training.
No "Union" position on these people? After all these people (under duress in trying to get a job) have lowered T & C's.
Anyway, I don't think OS will make it off the ground. We're already in recession and the first thing to be cut is air travel.
Orvil
Orvil
Could I be brave enough to suggest that many of us here agree with your view that SSTRs have endangered T&Cs across the industry - but having said that what exactly do you suggest BALPA "do" about SSTR"s?
FWIW in my ideal World I wish BALPA would stop running job seekers conferences and stop telling people what a wonderful job it alledgedly is...then again I'm notoriously meanspirited
FWIW in my ideal World I wish BALPA would stop running job seekers conferences and stop telling people what a wonderful job it alledgedly is...then again I'm notoriously meanspirited
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People shouldn't be so quick to judge BA pilots based on what they read on here.
I'm sure that at least a few of the supposed BA pilots on pprune are people with nothing to do with BA pretending to be arrogant just to cause trouble. Sad I know but true.
I've met a few BA pilots (sitting on their own in Orlando after their cabin crew have abandoned them) and they seemed nice enough blokes. I'm sure the many cadets I met with their 'I'm better than you' attitude were just in the minority.
I do agree though that if openskies goes ahead, there will be many other airlines trying to do the same thing.
It doesn't really matter if you like BA or whatever you THINK their pilots to be like.
If openskies goes ahead your airline will be next.
I'm sure that at least a few of the supposed BA pilots on pprune are people with nothing to do with BA pretending to be arrogant just to cause trouble. Sad I know but true.
I've met a few BA pilots (sitting on their own in Orlando after their cabin crew have abandoned them) and they seemed nice enough blokes. I'm sure the many cadets I met with their 'I'm better than you' attitude were just in the minority.
I do agree though that if openskies goes ahead, there will be many other airlines trying to do the same thing.
It doesn't really matter if you like BA or whatever you THINK their pilots to be like.
If openskies goes ahead your airline will be next.
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Hi Wiggy,
Thanks for your comments.
I have researched all of these "SSTR and line training companies" and it's sad to say that most are run by current line Pilots in high management positions.
What BALPA could do is expel them from the Union (if they're members of course). They may change their minds about exploiting in-experienced Pilots when they have to shop individually for the financial benefits they recieve from BALPA.
BALPA could also speak to the airlines who are taking these people on. I may seem naive but I keep ready on this website and others that we are a profession. May be management Pilots could start acting professionaly rather than dodgy fly-by-night market traders.
I know, one of the arguments is that "if people are willing to pay then so be it". May be we should take the same argument for other professions. Let's use Doctors- for their internship, Accountants - articles and Lawyers (ok they can pay ;-) ). Would you let a Doctor mess about with your insides knowing they had to borrow £40,000 for the pleasure and then not get paid!
Thanks once again. I await the ridicule.
Orvil
Thanks for your comments.
I have researched all of these "SSTR and line training companies" and it's sad to say that most are run by current line Pilots in high management positions.
What BALPA could do is expel them from the Union (if they're members of course). They may change their minds about exploiting in-experienced Pilots when they have to shop individually for the financial benefits they recieve from BALPA.
BALPA could also speak to the airlines who are taking these people on. I may seem naive but I keep ready on this website and others that we are a profession. May be management Pilots could start acting professionaly rather than dodgy fly-by-night market traders.
I know, one of the arguments is that "if people are willing to pay then so be it". May be we should take the same argument for other professions. Let's use Doctors- for their internship, Accountants - articles and Lawyers (ok they can pay ;-) ). Would you let a Doctor mess about with your insides knowing they had to borrow £40,000 for the pleasure and then not get paid!
Thanks once again. I await the ridicule.
Orvil
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Orvil,
Don't worry, the borrowing binge of New Labour's brave new world is over. We have witnessed the end of credit expansion. The SSTR's were the golden generation.
A new era is about to begin, without credit.
Don't worry, the borrowing binge of New Labour's brave new world is over. We have witnessed the end of credit expansion. The SSTR's were the golden generation.
A new era is about to begin, without credit.
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Erm - Hand - please don't disappoint.
Please give us all some insightful comment.
Surely there's a way to present this as a BACC triumph?
Question is really how many people's contributions have already been wasted on BA line pilots ludicrous aspirations!
Please give us all some insightful comment.
Surely there's a way to present this as a BACC triumph?
Question is really how many people's contributions have already been wasted on BA line pilots ludicrous aspirations!
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I agree dick in all honesty the bloke doesnt seem to know what side he is on what a complete ass!!!! those ba pilots do deserve support from us after all it isnt just them as individuals it effects in the future it effects there families too they are fighting for the security of there future.
I look forward to reading the comments of any pilot that joins OS in a years time. I should imagine it will be along the lines of the BACX comments about piss poor BA seconded mgmt, poor T & C's, and a general lack of support. Unfortunately, your choices will be to suck it up, or to leave the company. Don't think for one minute that you will be missed. The Chief Pilot of OS is a notorious cost cutter in BA who cheerfully made all BA terminal staff redundant (100's) outside of London. What do you think his reaction will be when his pilots come begging for a pay increase knowing that their will be more wannabees like yourselves willing to undercut their colleagues to get their foot in the door? Sadly, I think that many OS joiners will be rueing the day that BALPA withdrew from this courtcase. I foresee former OS pilots joining big, bad BA in the future, having wasted 5 years of their lives in OS thinking , surely it has to get better than this? Ask any BACX guy for the answer.
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Indeed it is interesting that Hand Solo and Tandemrotor are noted by their silence now, much as some would like to gloat I feel that this is not a good result for UK pilots in general. As i stated on another thread managers of airlines all over the country will be rubbing their hands in glee at backdown of BALPA. I wish good luck to all those who join Openskies. Having read now the contract and terms and conditions for this outfit I feel that you will be very vulnerable. This is made much worse by the fact that you are not on the mainline seniority list.
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Ahem.
Some of you obviously missed my post in R&N on page 3 of the thread entitled "BALPA withdraw from Openskies court case." Dated 23 May.
For my troubles, I received several abusive PMs from anonymous idiots, who wouldn't have the balls to say anything to my face. (and at least one HAS had the opportunity!) I admit, I have replied in kind!
I also know for a fact, these were individuals who tried, and failed, to pass the BA selection procedure. Draw your own conclusions!
I guess the fact that we will remain the most well rewarded pilots in the UK makes us a target for all the bile these underachievers can muster.
OK. The big question for all you gleeful revellers: Who thinks the defeat of BALPA in court by BA will improve T&Cs in this industry??
Therein lies the whole point of this thread!
Some of you obviously missed my post in R&N on page 3 of the thread entitled "BALPA withdraw from Openskies court case." Dated 23 May.
I admit it. I am absolutely gutted at this outcome. I can't think of any other way to describe it other than a complete and utter disaster! I feel badly let down. All those bitter BA pilot haters, go ahead, have a field day at our expense. Fill your boots.
I also know for a fact, these were individuals who tried, and failed, to pass the BA selection procedure. Draw your own conclusions!
I guess the fact that we will remain the most well rewarded pilots in the UK makes us a target for all the bile these underachievers can muster.
OK. The big question for all you gleeful revellers: Who thinks the defeat of BALPA in court by BA will improve T&Cs in this industry??
Therein lies the whole point of this thread!
RG is the new man...not ex BACX...just been through the same BA mgmt course.....and is a lot brighter than TDLF. Expect it to be worse than BACX, especially with that contract and no right of access to mainline. Judging by some of the posts on here though, they should be very happy there. Good Luck
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To quote from Tandemrotor: -
"For my troubles, I received several abusive PMs from anonymous idiots, who wouldn't have the balls to say anything to my face. (and at least one HAS had the opportunity!) I admit, I have replied in kind!
I also know for a fact, these were individuals who tried, and failed, to pass the BA selection procedure. Draw your own conclusions!
I guess the fact that we will remain the most well rewarded pilots in the UK makes us a target for all the bile these underachievers can muster"
1, Your first point - despite the obvious quality of BA training (I mean it) you obviously haven't learnt one of the basic fundamentals of CRM - namely 'behaviour breeds behaviour' and the need to always remain Adult even when those around you are being childish or parental.
2, I get rather fed up of pompous posts from a few within BA about how wonderfully better than everyone else they. TR - your second and third points - having seen BA recruit some pretty obnoxious individuals I wouldn't be too sure that the guys not accepted are inferior. I acknowledge that BA in general have some excellent people but nothing is 100% and at times I can assure you that BA have rejected some good guys and taken some that other employers were very glad to see the back of. I was also once in an expat national carrier when a retiree BA Capt joined and needed extra sectors to get checked out of line training - a rare event maybe but nevertheless enough to possibly shatter TR's delusion of superiority. All airlines make occasional errors in selection and I hasten to add I have friends within BA and colleagues who are ex BA who are excellent characters and pilots. I expect many BA pilots cringe at posts by TR and others like him.
3, As far as OS is concerned I really think this was a misjudged episode by BALPA and BA pilots - OS a/c are no more BA a/c than GO's were - OS is a subsidary company with a seperate AOC = seperate terms and conditions etc etc. If OS wasn't targeting premium class pax and longhaul then we wouldn't have heard much about it as we didn't about GO which many who object to OS probably saw as a tatty little shorthaul operator which they didn't really want to dirty their premium class hands to be associated with anyway.
Before the expected insults come back, I've never applied to BA - it just never matched my needs but I'm sure it is great airline with many great people in it and like everywhere else, some not so great.
The truth is that sitting up the front of your Boeing or Airbus, you can't tell what the paint scheme is on the outside and whether the pax are in 29 inch econ seats or flat beds, they all deserve the same professionalism and levels of flight safety and comfort that we all strive to provide.
PS: I never worked for Go either
"For my troubles, I received several abusive PMs from anonymous idiots, who wouldn't have the balls to say anything to my face. (and at least one HAS had the opportunity!) I admit, I have replied in kind!
I also know for a fact, these were individuals who tried, and failed, to pass the BA selection procedure. Draw your own conclusions!
I guess the fact that we will remain the most well rewarded pilots in the UK makes us a target for all the bile these underachievers can muster"
1, Your first point - despite the obvious quality of BA training (I mean it) you obviously haven't learnt one of the basic fundamentals of CRM - namely 'behaviour breeds behaviour' and the need to always remain Adult even when those around you are being childish or parental.
2, I get rather fed up of pompous posts from a few within BA about how wonderfully better than everyone else they. TR - your second and third points - having seen BA recruit some pretty obnoxious individuals I wouldn't be too sure that the guys not accepted are inferior. I acknowledge that BA in general have some excellent people but nothing is 100% and at times I can assure you that BA have rejected some good guys and taken some that other employers were very glad to see the back of. I was also once in an expat national carrier when a retiree BA Capt joined and needed extra sectors to get checked out of line training - a rare event maybe but nevertheless enough to possibly shatter TR's delusion of superiority. All airlines make occasional errors in selection and I hasten to add I have friends within BA and colleagues who are ex BA who are excellent characters and pilots. I expect many BA pilots cringe at posts by TR and others like him.
3, As far as OS is concerned I really think this was a misjudged episode by BALPA and BA pilots - OS a/c are no more BA a/c than GO's were - OS is a subsidary company with a seperate AOC = seperate terms and conditions etc etc. If OS wasn't targeting premium class pax and longhaul then we wouldn't have heard much about it as we didn't about GO which many who object to OS probably saw as a tatty little shorthaul operator which they didn't really want to dirty their premium class hands to be associated with anyway.
Before the expected insults come back, I've never applied to BA - it just never matched my needs but I'm sure it is great airline with many great people in it and like everywhere else, some not so great.
The truth is that sitting up the front of your Boeing or Airbus, you can't tell what the paint scheme is on the outside and whether the pax are in 29 inch econ seats or flat beds, they all deserve the same professionalism and levels of flight safety and comfort that we all strive to provide.
PS: I never worked for Go either
