Easyjet Strike?
Albertoli,
You said:
You might want to re-read the very first line of my post here:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...&postcount=130
I spent time on turboprops, so I only reached the factored hours requirement last year. It takes months waiting for check flights and sim, and now I, with quite a few others, are waiting for the elusive command course.
I am not complaining about my rotten contract. I signed it, and it is my fault. It is also the fault of all the hundreds of others that signed it, and those who continue to sign it today.
I am simply responding to your opinion, clearly derived from your mates observations, that we are very well paid.
I am voting NO - because I earn less than any other similar pilot in any other comparable airline.
No amount of you telling me how well off I am will change my opinion, thanks anyway.
You said:
I am surprised you are not already well into the cammand process
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpos...&postcount=130
I spent time on turboprops, so I only reached the factored hours requirement last year. It takes months waiting for check flights and sim, and now I, with quite a few others, are waiting for the elusive command course.
I am not complaining about my rotten contract. I signed it, and it is my fault. It is also the fault of all the hundreds of others that signed it, and those who continue to sign it today.
I am simply responding to your opinion, clearly derived from your mates observations, that we are very well paid.
I am voting NO - because I earn less than any other similar pilot in any other comparable airline.
No amount of you telling me how well off I am will change my opinion, thanks anyway.
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It's a very difficult thread to read when you consider the pilots and cabin crew at easy gave their management team a record 80% satisfaction rating in a recent empoyee survey. Why would you even consider it strange that the company would take that result out for a spin....as an outsider it looks like a huge own goal. They knew they were in the driving seat, because you put them there. Well done! There was never going to be a negotiation, because when you had your chance you told them you were content/satisfied with your T&Cs, and they knew all that before the pay talks ended....because you told them!
next year =
next year =
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Having worked for several different airlines over many years I am somewhat surprised at the idea that easyjet pilots might be contemplating a strike. In my experience, in recent memory, strikes have rarely or never achieved their desired objectives.
In this industry, most strikes have occured just prior to a company going out of business. I do not see easyJet going out of business in the near future.
Why do people go on strike? Because all other avenues have failed to produce the desired result.
Why has the desired result failed to occur? Because the employees feel that their pay and conditions have slipped so far behind the industry standard that they feel strongly enough to make a fuss.
Believe me, pay and conditions in easyjet are a very long way from the worst in this industry, be it in UK or Europe.
The pilots will not strike because they have little to gain. Even if easyJet were to concede and pay them the best rates in the industry, they would not be so very far from where they are now.
They already get close to the best T&Cs in the LOCO market and only blinkered and naive newcomers to this job think otherwise.
Do some research and examine exactly what you are getting compared to others in the same situation.
Talk to your management and make a deal.
Whatever deal you make will be unsatisfactory to many who think that they deserve more. But that has always been the case in aviation.
I am worth far more than that!
I deserve more because someone else gets this much!
I want, I want, I want.
I don't want management making lots of money.
I want some of their bonuses.
I do the work and they get the money.
Me, me, me, me.
For goodness sake, stop whingeing and get on with the job.
Pathetic and sad, all of you who are advocating a strike.
Save it for something important.
In this industry, most strikes have occured just prior to a company going out of business. I do not see easyJet going out of business in the near future.
Why do people go on strike? Because all other avenues have failed to produce the desired result.
Why has the desired result failed to occur? Because the employees feel that their pay and conditions have slipped so far behind the industry standard that they feel strongly enough to make a fuss.
Believe me, pay and conditions in easyjet are a very long way from the worst in this industry, be it in UK or Europe.
The pilots will not strike because they have little to gain. Even if easyJet were to concede and pay them the best rates in the industry, they would not be so very far from where they are now.
They already get close to the best T&Cs in the LOCO market and only blinkered and naive newcomers to this job think otherwise.
Do some research and examine exactly what you are getting compared to others in the same situation.
Talk to your management and make a deal.
Whatever deal you make will be unsatisfactory to many who think that they deserve more. But that has always been the case in aviation.
I am worth far more than that!
I deserve more because someone else gets this much!
I want, I want, I want.
I don't want management making lots of money.
I want some of their bonuses.
I do the work and they get the money.
Me, me, me, me.
For goodness sake, stop whingeing and get on with the job.
Pathetic and sad, all of you who are advocating a strike.
Save it for something important.
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Ah the Pulse survey...
Sorry baxfactor, but I really can't remember having seen questions of the survey relating to our T&C's. Perhaps someone here can prove me wrong.
I'm not sure I can post what the questions actually were on a public forum, so to be sure I won't, but I can tell you they were along the lines of "Do you feel commited to the succes of the company, do you have friendly colleagues etc etc.
So what the survey reflects is simply that we are commited to the company's success, and that most of us a proud to work for easyJet. I, for one certainly feel this way. However, this doesn't mean we shouldn' seek to make easyJet the carreer airline it ought to be. A lot of issues remain to be dealt with, but this won't be possible if the hundreds of new joiners think like Albertoli et al.
It's a very difficult thread to read when you consider the pilots and cabin crew at easy gave their management team a record 80% satisfaction rating in a recent empoyee survey. Why would you even consider it strange that the company would take that result out for a spin....as an outsider it looks like a huge own goal. They knew they were in the driving seat, because you put them there. Well done! There was never going to be a negotiation, because when you had your chance you told them you were content/satisfied with your T&Cs, and they knew all that before the pay talks ended....because you told them!
next year =
next year =
I'm not sure I can post what the questions actually were on a public forum, so to be sure I won't, but I can tell you they were along the lines of "Do you feel commited to the succes of the company, do you have friendly colleagues etc etc.
So what the survey reflects is simply that we are commited to the company's success, and that most of us a proud to work for easyJet. I, for one certainly feel this way. However, this doesn't mean we shouldn' seek to make easyJet the carreer airline it ought to be. A lot of issues remain to be dealt with, but this won't be possible if the hundreds of new joiners think like Albertoli et al.
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Rubik, what a load of rubbish!!
If I follow your somewhat confused reasoning, we should NOT try to improve our package because we are already at the top end of what other LOCO's offer!? What you are saying is that we should wait until what we have gained over the years gets chipped away, because we are the best paid in the LOCO market. This is crazy. How can we try to improve the general terms and conditions in the loco market if we don't try and increase the standard?
We've been trying for the past few months, and what was "offered" by management was a pure insult on our intelligence. You do realize there is what we call a negociation process? We are now at the final offer, ie the company will NOT come back around the table. If the ballot result for the final offer is rejected then we will be issued with a ballot for industrial action. That's how things work, but you don't seem too familiar with that do you? Have you ever been in a union or are you just eager to sit on the sideline and reap the benefits of the efforts of others?
Nobody said that. We understand that management have a huge reponsibilty over the success or failure of the company. Therefore we accept that they are rewarded accordingly.
For goodness sake you are unbelievable. We don't want their bonuses. We would like some form of recognition other than a pat on the back and a sub-inflation offe. Is this to much to ask, or to understand?
They already get close to the best T&Cs in the LOCO market and only blinkered and naive newcomers to this job think otherwise.
Do some research and examine exactly what you are getting compared to others in the same situation.
Do some research and examine exactly what you are getting compared to others in the same situation.
Talk to your management and make a deal.
I deserve more because someone else gets this much!
I want, I want, I want.
I want, I want, I want.
I don't want management making lots of money
I want some of their bonuses.
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Rubik101 is obviously one of those persons that are scared of everything in life and let others take control of their lives...
They had one bad experience (taxes or management) caused by their own bad judgment, and now they have a sudden urge to 'warn' everybody else for the impending disaster...
Those are exactly the kind of people that EZY wants: people scared sh!tless, easily manipulated into believing the latest orange propaganda...
A couple words of advice: get some balls and a spine then you'll find that life will be a hell of a lot easier!
They had one bad experience (taxes or management) caused by their own bad judgment, and now they have a sudden urge to 'warn' everybody else for the impending disaster...
Those are exactly the kind of people that EZY wants: people scared sh!tless, easily manipulated into believing the latest orange propaganda...
A couple words of advice: get some balls and a spine then you'll find that life will be a hell of a lot easier!
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Is it a requirement to be angry and ignorant to post on here?
ZB, I have been on a company PLC and on a BALPA Committee for many years. I have negotiated through many hours with management and generally, over the years, acheived fairly good results. Thats how it's done. Some years you gain a lot, some you gain a little and in some years people mutter about strikes. Strikes achieve nothing in this bussiness. Wait and see what happens in BFS this week and then tell me I'm wrong.
As for bokkenwhatever's comments, well, just plain ignorant seems to suffice in your case.
ZB, I have been on a company PLC and on a BALPA Committee for many years. I have negotiated through many hours with management and generally, over the years, acheived fairly good results. Thats how it's done. Some years you gain a lot, some you gain a little and in some years people mutter about strikes. Strikes achieve nothing in this bussiness. Wait and see what happens in BFS this week and then tell me I'm wrong.
As for bokkenwhatever's comments, well, just plain ignorant seems to suffice in your case.
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In life you have to know when it's time to stand up for yourself and when it's time to give in. You have to know which battles to pick and which battles you want to avoid.
IMHO this battle (not necessarily a strike though) we will have to fight. If we don't stand up now, there will be no more BALPA for that famous "next battle" that we always read about on the BALPA forum.
After this 'pay deal', what's the incentive of staying with BALPA? Six earlies in a row for "lifestyle" reasons? There will be no more members as the divide and conquer tactics of management have paid off. The gloves have come off, AH has turned out to be a bit of a wolf in sheep's clothing and with Dutchman CV it's a new ballgame. If we're not very careful, EZY will soon have to paint orange harps on the tail.
Give in now, wait a year or so and then tell me if I'm wrong...
IMHO this battle (not necessarily a strike though) we will have to fight. If we don't stand up now, there will be no more BALPA for that famous "next battle" that we always read about on the BALPA forum.
After this 'pay deal', what's the incentive of staying with BALPA? Six earlies in a row for "lifestyle" reasons? There will be no more members as the divide and conquer tactics of management have paid off. The gloves have come off, AH has turned out to be a bit of a wolf in sheep's clothing and with Dutchman CV it's a new ballgame. If we're not very careful, EZY will soon have to paint orange harps on the tail.
Wait and see what happens in BFS this week and then tell me I'm wrong.
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Originally Posted by rubik
Is it a requirement to be angry and ignorant to post on here
Once again, I do not wish to strike, BUT if the ballot results are negative and we do vote for some form of Industrial Action, then I will support what the majority of the membership has decided.
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Back to the original topic:
The EZY pay deal offer gets more and more ridiculous! Just over the german news:
Cabin personal LTU gets 3% backdated beginning 2007 and 2% from july 2008.
Reflecting this on the German inflation rate and that LTU is not really making profits, so what is the EZY deal worth?
Yeah, I know, the next battle will be a tough one!
The EZY pay deal offer gets more and more ridiculous! Just over the german news:
Cabin personal LTU gets 3% backdated beginning 2007 and 2% from july 2008.
Reflecting this on the German inflation rate and that LTU is not really making profits, so what is the EZY deal worth?
Yeah, I know, the next battle will be a tough one!
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I flew with a captain the other day and asked him what he thought of the new deal, he said that he thought it was a poor deal but he voted yes because we weren't going to get a better offer!!!! I nearly gave up the will to live at that point......
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Well well.
Sarah737
Please be assured that it is ok to think too much especially when sitting on the ground. I do not think many lives in aviation have been lost sitting thinking in front of a computer whilst reading PPRUNE.
Hundredpercentplease
My comments were based on the following:
If you flew props previously and have been with easy 4+ years then I would have expected you to have reached the 3000hrs factored before now. From what I have read in this forum the easy pilots are flying 850-900hrs per year therefore let me do the math. With this in mind, 4+ years with easy you should have at least 3600hrs FACTORED??? (then you have your prop hours to add on).
Now, you are not happy about your pay and conditions (even though you signed up to them) and have said that you are in the command process. I think you need to not be so blinkered in your approach and vote no. Vote how you like, I really do not care, but if you are successful in the command process and get your command let's say in the sprin of next year, you will be on a salary of say around £85000 (an educated guess). Now, which other airline will give you command with your experience level in 5 years of joining the company? I think if you joined another airline, given your experience level, it will take longer than 5 years to earn that amount of cash - don't you think?
Sarah737
Please be assured that it is ok to think too much especially when sitting on the ground. I do not think many lives in aviation have been lost sitting thinking in front of a computer whilst reading PPRUNE.
Hundredpercentplease
My comments were based on the following:
If you flew props previously and have been with easy 4+ years then I would have expected you to have reached the 3000hrs factored before now. From what I have read in this forum the easy pilots are flying 850-900hrs per year therefore let me do the math. With this in mind, 4+ years with easy you should have at least 3600hrs FACTORED??? (then you have your prop hours to add on).
Now, you are not happy about your pay and conditions (even though you signed up to them) and have said that you are in the command process. I think you need to not be so blinkered in your approach and vote no. Vote how you like, I really do not care, but if you are successful in the command process and get your command let's say in the sprin of next year, you will be on a salary of say around £85000 (an educated guess). Now, which other airline will give you command with your experience level in 5 years of joining the company? I think if you joined another airline, given your experience level, it will take longer than 5 years to earn that amount of cash - don't you think?
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Rubik101
Well said that man.
ZBman
the pay deal may not be that great this year but was the last pay deal a good one? If it was I do not think you can exppect to get a very good pay deal every year. Some years you have some good ones and some years not so good. At the end of the day it is a pay rise and not a freeze.
If you are a BALPA member and the vote is for industrial action you will have to strike anyway - you will have to support the membership whether you like it or not.
Bokkenrijder
Balls and a spine eh? There are a lot of miner out there who thought the same as you 20 years a go. They have balls and a spine but no job?
Kraut
Please do not confuse the issue with cabin crew pay. This thread relates to pilot pay. Anyway, I do not know what your point is here. Are easy not offering something like 4.4%??? Is this not better than 3% and even 2%????
Well said that man.
ZBman
the pay deal may not be that great this year but was the last pay deal a good one? If it was I do not think you can exppect to get a very good pay deal every year. Some years you have some good ones and some years not so good. At the end of the day it is a pay rise and not a freeze.
If you are a BALPA member and the vote is for industrial action you will have to strike anyway - you will have to support the membership whether you like it or not.
Bokkenrijder
Balls and a spine eh? There are a lot of miner out there who thought the same as you 20 years a go. They have balls and a spine but no job?
Kraut
Please do not confuse the issue with cabin crew pay. This thread relates to pilot pay. Anyway, I do not know what your point is here. Are easy not offering something like 4.4%??? Is this not better than 3% and even 2%????
Albertoli,
If it winds you up so much how much Easy pilots earn, don't read this thread.
To be honest getting wound up by other peoples business suggests a stress level that is not good for the health.
If it winds you up so much how much Easy pilots earn, don't read this thread.
I do not think many lives in aviation have been lost sitting thinking in front of a computer whilst reading PPRUNE.
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ALBERTOLI
You wrote:.......Are easy not offering something like 4.4%??? Is this not better than 3% and even 2%????............
I mentioned the cabin crew pay increase only to show, how marginal the EZY pilot deal is! The LTU pilots got even a better deal. And we have also to look at the continent, as EZY claims to be a "paneuropean" airline!
And I said, please read carefully, "reflecting on inflation"!
UK inflation about 4% payraise 4,7% = real plus about 0.7%
German inflation 1,8% payrise 3% = real plus about 1,2%
Also, this is higher mathematics, I hope you discover my point now???
And the LTU deal is backdated beginning of the year, the EZY two year deal starts in october!!!!
You wrote:.......Are easy not offering something like 4.4%??? Is this not better than 3% and even 2%????............
I mentioned the cabin crew pay increase only to show, how marginal the EZY pilot deal is! The LTU pilots got even a better deal. And we have also to look at the continent, as EZY claims to be a "paneuropean" airline!
And I said, please read carefully, "reflecting on inflation"!
UK inflation about 4% payraise 4,7% = real plus about 0.7%
German inflation 1,8% payrise 3% = real plus about 1,2%
Also, this is higher mathematics, I hope you discover my point now???
And the LTU deal is backdated beginning of the year, the EZY two year deal starts in october!!!!
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Please correct me if I'm wrong Kraut but isn't it a good thing that Easy bases the payrise on UK inflation since it one of the highest in Europe?
On that premises you will get a 4,7-1.8+=2,9% payrise?
So, the european bases will actually be better of then the UK bases.
But I'm sure if you suggest to the company that you will get the same 1,2% plus that the LTU cabin crew get, they will be more then happy to give it to you!
On that premises you will get a 4,7-1.8+=2,9% payrise?
So, the european bases will actually be better of then the UK bases.
But I'm sure if you suggest to the company that you will get the same 1,2% plus that the LTU cabin crew get, they will be more then happy to give it to you!
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also, the reason why the paydeal is not backdated to Jan is because the negotiations are for next year! If you remember, last time the negotiations took so long that I only got the backpay in July - backdated from October!
So this year they made an early start to negotiations to prevent this from happening!
So this year they made an early start to negotiations to prevent this from happening!
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Originally Posted by easyme
On that premises you will get a 4,7-1.8+=2,9% payrise?
So, the european bases will actually be better of then the UK bases.
So, the european bases will actually be better of then the UK bases.
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I agree, and that is a completely different matter.
What I'm trying to say is that the offer isn't all that bad, and certainly not bad enough to strike over.
Reading comments made by, for example, Kraut aren't helping our situation at all. I can understand why he is upset about his wage, he suddenly has to start paying tax! As much of of a shock that might be, the people based in germany could not expect this to last forever.
To then complain and say 'we' only have a 0.7% payrise and LTU in germany have a 1,2% payrise isn't fair according to me.
First of all, the inflation has dropped in the UK, so for UK based people the actual increase is slightly higher. Second of all, once more, the european bases get even more spendable income.
Do I think we should split the pilot community up? defenitely not. I think we should all be unionised and have one negotiating team for the whole community.
Pay increases shouldn't talk about RPI anymore, it doesn't reflect our european operation. Rather give us the number we get(what has happened) and then we can compare for ourselves whether it is worth it.
A majority vote would give the final vote, simple as that.
What I'm trying to say is that the offer isn't all that bad, and certainly not bad enough to strike over.
Reading comments made by, for example, Kraut aren't helping our situation at all. I can understand why he is upset about his wage, he suddenly has to start paying tax! As much of of a shock that might be, the people based in germany could not expect this to last forever.
To then complain and say 'we' only have a 0.7% payrise and LTU in germany have a 1,2% payrise isn't fair according to me.
First of all, the inflation has dropped in the UK, so for UK based people the actual increase is slightly higher. Second of all, once more, the european bases get even more spendable income.
Do I think we should split the pilot community up? defenitely not. I think we should all be unionised and have one negotiating team for the whole community.
Pay increases shouldn't talk about RPI anymore, it doesn't reflect our european operation. Rather give us the number we get(what has happened) and then we can compare for ourselves whether it is worth it.
A majority vote would give the final vote, simple as that.