EZY to cancel TRSS in the future?
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757 Manipulator - your post sums up the frustrations of discussions here on PPrune. It is so important to read what is said and not what you think someone might be wanting to say. Nobody, least of all me as a 146-rated pilot, has suggested, either implicitly or explicitly, that easyJet and CTC consider 'all 146 drivers as a liability'. For you to suggest that just raises the ante and is a misrepresenation of what I said.
and so it would be fair to say that the 146 is at best regarded as a 'halfway house' within the industry
Jensen has summed this up quite nicely, as this is clearly snobbery driven by a cash imperative.
My own opinion is unchanged...it does however seem preposterous to think the industry however considers 146 time in the same fashion as T/P time, I would argue that this falls into the catagory of incompetence or stupidity.
The BAe146 DECs that I referred to did not come from Debonair but from another operator.
They had so much trouble learning to fly the 737 that all four of them are currently TRI/TREs with easyJet.
They had so much trouble learning to fly the 737 that all four of them are currently TRI/TREs with easyJet.
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Training and or type ratings cost money. Some airlines (the older ones often) pay for the rating and bond you to them (3 to 5 years)
In actual fact this means that they finance and train their pilots. Smaller airlines historically have found that pilots tend to leave well before the end of their bond period. As a result the small airline now had to chase their bond money and on top of that train another pilot. Smaller airlines were becomming pilot training and financing facillities rather then airlines because of this.
So instead you pay for you're rating up front and they will pay this back over some period (3-5 years again) even they will pay some intrest on top. (in other words you may use them as a career step, but pay for that yourself)
Let's look at this from some other perspective as well. If you have flown with an other airline and you are indeed rated on say the A320 or B737, you're marked value has increased and you should be payed extra money for that. I think this is only fair since you may have another bond to pay for.
Selection of new crew has a few purposes, first it is to see if you are the type of person that fit's the profile of the company. Seccond it is to make sure that you can cope with the training standard of the company, so that you do not require extra time of your instructors (read training capacity) in order to make the required level.
Let me be clear I do not like airlines that make money from their pilots in training such as e.g. an ATR operator asking 50.000 euro for a type rating, but I think that marked economy is playing a vital role in our terms and conditions. If this procedure is becomming a system that allows only the "rich" to become a pilot we as a group of pilots should engage in discussions with our airlines and find a solution to this.
As far as I am aware CTC does arrange finance for the training, this finance is provided without considering you're other loans, and EZY/CTC guarentee the pay-back. If EZY terminates your contract at some point (e.g. disciplinairy action) they will even pay the remainder of the loan/bond.
EZY selection and training is the best and most proffesional that I have seen so far, company culture is amongst the best in the industry and for the type of operation it is unbeaten (check ryanair's post's and you'll see)
If you are unhappy about current conditions talk to your CC, base captain or even your CEO (indeed he is approachable) but spreading negativity is by no means a constructive effort to make things better.
regards, Nick
In actual fact this means that they finance and train their pilots. Smaller airlines historically have found that pilots tend to leave well before the end of their bond period. As a result the small airline now had to chase their bond money and on top of that train another pilot. Smaller airlines were becomming pilot training and financing facillities rather then airlines because of this.
So instead you pay for you're rating up front and they will pay this back over some period (3-5 years again) even they will pay some intrest on top. (in other words you may use them as a career step, but pay for that yourself)
Let's look at this from some other perspective as well. If you have flown with an other airline and you are indeed rated on say the A320 or B737, you're marked value has increased and you should be payed extra money for that. I think this is only fair since you may have another bond to pay for.
Selection of new crew has a few purposes, first it is to see if you are the type of person that fit's the profile of the company. Seccond it is to make sure that you can cope with the training standard of the company, so that you do not require extra time of your instructors (read training capacity) in order to make the required level.
Let me be clear I do not like airlines that make money from their pilots in training such as e.g. an ATR operator asking 50.000 euro for a type rating, but I think that marked economy is playing a vital role in our terms and conditions. If this procedure is becomming a system that allows only the "rich" to become a pilot we as a group of pilots should engage in discussions with our airlines and find a solution to this.
As far as I am aware CTC does arrange finance for the training, this finance is provided without considering you're other loans, and EZY/CTC guarentee the pay-back. If EZY terminates your contract at some point (e.g. disciplinairy action) they will even pay the remainder of the loan/bond.
EZY selection and training is the best and most proffesional that I have seen so far, company culture is amongst the best in the industry and for the type of operation it is unbeaten (check ryanair's post's and you'll see)
If you are unhappy about current conditions talk to your CC, base captain or even your CEO (indeed he is approachable) but spreading negativity is by no means a constructive effort to make things better.
regards, Nick
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Nick : With all due respect, what a load of twaddle!
Read the contract (oh sorry you probably haven't seen one, if you did you would know), you don't get your money back. Over 5 years the TRSS scheme will cost the employee circa £42k, in other words one years salary. Or, just give us a year of your life for nothing!
Since when has 100+ aircraft been a small airline! EJ needs to start thinking (and acting) like one of the big boys. The only reason EJ is turning into a training airline is because of crappy TRSS/cadet deals, under crewing and slave like rosters that change at the whim of the latest fire fighting scheme from crewing.
So that would include EJ then because that is exactly what they are doing.
Says it all really when it comes to your understanding of how these schemes work. Gee, i get a warm fuzzy feeling when i think that if i cock up and get the boot CTC/EZY will come to my rescue and pay the bill. 
You gotta be kidding.
Oh come on, company culture is so good the cabin crew are in dispute over pay, the pilots are knackered with 5254 and being told it is their fault because they live too far away (where is the orange Fatigue Management Book when you need it) There have been warnings about the lack of crew since the numbers were cut back, the 737 crews have been complaining about noise levels for years and now the company are doing us a favour and finally getting ANR headsets into the flightdeck (nothing to do with a recent change in EU legislation, purely because people are their greatest asset) and the list could go on and on. No one listens. They want short term financial gains, instead of thinking long term. When it comes down to it you are only required for around 5 years, then you become too expensive when compared to a new joiner who does the same job and doesn't know about the crap that has been going on for years with nothing being done about it. Until they have been in for 5 years themselves.
That is about the most reasonable thing you have said. Hang around and gas bag and negotiate only to be ignored. The CEO might be approachable, but has he done anything tangible yet? The inmates are still running the asylum. Wait until people realise that nothing can actually be done about the 'lifestyle' issues at the moment even if there was a will to do so.
The other option of course is leave and get a life. Exactly what more and more people are doing.
So instead you pay for you're rating up front and they will pay this back over some period (3-5 years again) even they will pay some intrest on top
Since when has 100+ aircraft been a small airline! EJ needs to start thinking (and acting) like one of the big boys. The only reason EJ is turning into a training airline is because of crappy TRSS/cadet deals, under crewing and slave like rosters that change at the whim of the latest fire fighting scheme from crewing.
Let me be clear I do not like airlines that make money from their pilots in training
If EZY terminates your contract at some point (e.g. disciplinairy action) they will even pay the remainder of the loan/bond.
You gotta be kidding.
company culture is amongst the best in the industry and for the type of operation it is unbeaten
If you are unhappy about current conditions talk to your CC, base captain or even your CEO (indeed he is approachable) but spreading negativity is by no means a constructive effort to make things better
The other option of course is leave and get a life. Exactly what more and more people are doing.
Nick, quite incredible. You have absolutely no idea about how the EZY pay-for-your-rating system works. Did you also know that having paid the cash, you then do not get paid for months as a little insult to injury?
Your suggestion to talk to your base captain also amused me, I talked about the TRSS scheme to my base captain - and he thought it was just a bond! He also had no idea how it works.
BTW, I keep hearing two numbers in relation to the number of flights cancelled due to lack of crew - one is 1000 and the other is 2000 (2% of summer flights). NSF et al, is this the way you expect an excellent airline to operate? Which number is correct?
I am still in regular contact with the managers of one of the TP outfits that traditionally supply easyJet with pilots. They are now quite happy - in the past easy took the good guys, now it's only the worrying idiots we are taking.
Your suggestion to talk to your base captain also amused me, I talked about the TRSS scheme to my base captain - and he thought it was just a bond! He also had no idea how it works.
BTW, I keep hearing two numbers in relation to the number of flights cancelled due to lack of crew - one is 1000 and the other is 2000 (2% of summer flights). NSF et al, is this the way you expect an excellent airline to operate? Which number is correct?
I am still in regular contact with the managers of one of the TP outfits that traditionally supply easyJet with pilots. They are now quite happy - in the past easy took the good guys, now it's only the worrying idiots we are taking.
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Maybe I have indeed missed something, but please explain how does 23000 become 49000 even when 25000 is being payed back over 5 years?
The thing about not being payed during training, indeed not very nice! A good point to bring across for future TRSS ers.
The Cadet scheme (not getting any pay, except 1000 per month) is a shame! This is again a good point to cover, question is would all EZY pilots be willing to strike over these issues? Since that seems to be the trick that management will listnen to.
With regards to the culture, maybe my perspective is wrong but then again I have not worked at Rolls Royce/Pamper international airlines yet (if it even exists)
Dispute over pay, work roster is obviously present (but what would one expect if negotiations are going on)
The pay in general is not too bad (previous TP job 7 years command) paid less then TRSS SFO at EZY.
Indeed true that the CEO so far has not made any changes, let's wait and see.
Finally anyone that can get a better job elswere would be stupid to stay, but realize that the more that leave the more chance of things getting better.
regards, nick
The thing about not being payed during training, indeed not very nice! A good point to bring across for future TRSS ers.
The Cadet scheme (not getting any pay, except 1000 per month) is a shame! This is again a good point to cover, question is would all EZY pilots be willing to strike over these issues? Since that seems to be the trick that management will listnen to.
With regards to the culture, maybe my perspective is wrong but then again I have not worked at Rolls Royce/Pamper international airlines yet (if it even exists)
Dispute over pay, work roster is obviously present (but what would one expect if negotiations are going on)
The pay in general is not too bad (previous TP job 7 years command) paid less then TRSS SFO at EZY.
Indeed true that the CEO so far has not made any changes, let's wait and see.
Finally anyone that can get a better job elswere would be stupid to stay, but realize that the more that leave the more chance of things getting better.
regards, nick
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Nick
Go back to the 1st page of this thread and read post #18 (49000 ?)
Maybe I have indeed missed something, but please explain how does 23000 become 49000 even when 25000 is being payed back over 5 years
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Thanks, I now see where it came from.
As I have said before I think that some reward should be given during training even if it is only enough to cover expences made during the training period.
The gab in pension contribution....yeah well ok it is there but if I was (imagine this) to start at virgin do I get paid pension and full salary from day one? even during training???
As I have stated before I do believe in marked mechanisms dictating our pay rather then what may be fair. Like any business we can and will only be successfull if we dictate our own marked, if we let the airlines dictate our job marked there will be absolutely no change for the better.
Dispite all this I still believe ezy is amongst the best, they seem to be honnestly commited to make it the best workplace in the industry. I rather work hard for an airline that can sell more flights then it can crew then the other way around. I do not like it that while talks are going on between pilot representation ans management some people find it a good moment to slander their (coloured) opinions around.
If managent has made errors causing crew shortage there are two options left: change the manager, or accept thet errors have been made, correct the error and not make it again. The later has my preference (like the ASR system) maybe additional training is at some point required.
regards, Nick
As I have said before I think that some reward should be given during training even if it is only enough to cover expences made during the training period.
The gab in pension contribution....yeah well ok it is there but if I was (imagine this) to start at virgin do I get paid pension and full salary from day one? even during training???
As I have stated before I do believe in marked mechanisms dictating our pay rather then what may be fair. Like any business we can and will only be successfull if we dictate our own marked, if we let the airlines dictate our job marked there will be absolutely no change for the better.
Dispite all this I still believe ezy is amongst the best, they seem to be honnestly commited to make it the best workplace in the industry. I rather work hard for an airline that can sell more flights then it can crew then the other way around. I do not like it that while talks are going on between pilot representation ans management some people find it a good moment to slander their (coloured) opinions around.
If managent has made errors causing crew shortage there are two options left: change the manager, or accept thet errors have been made, correct the error and not make it again. The later has my preference (like the ASR system) maybe additional training is at some point required.
regards, Nick
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Some people have become completely taken in by 'the way it is' in aviation. It has only been like this since the lo-cos came along and has only spread in the last 5 years or so. I can't speak for Virgin, but suspect they DO pay and provide pension from Day 1. They certainly do in my airline, Thomsonfly, unless you join through CTC on their 'scheme'. It is not that strange a concept, most industries provide all the benefits from day one of employment. We are not talking joining and then getting the qualifications like an apprenticeship, you already have the qualifications, all you are doing is the 'on the job bit' required to operate for the particular employer. It is not that far fetched to expect full benefits from day one. Unfortunately the industry has moved away from this and is passing on costs to its employees because of supply and demand and may I be so forward as to say 'uninformed' individuals like you Nick. As long as guys like you keep lining up and paying, the companies will keep the schemes in place like TRSS. Once market forces dictate (if they ever do) that demand outstrips supply, then one employer will be first to drop the 'pay for this, that and the other' and perhaps only have you paying for 'this and that' in an attempt to attract staff. When it really swings, then they will go back to bonding (probably by way of a loan that they pay back whilst you remain employed, but in your name) so that if you leave you take the problem of repayment with you.
PP
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Originally Posted by Pilot Pete
As long as guys like you keep lining up and paying, the companies will keep the schemes in place like TRSS. Once market forces dictate (if they ever do) that demand outstrips supply, then one employer will be first to drop the 'pay for this, that and the other' and perhaps only have you paying for 'this and that' in an attempt to attract staff. When it really swings, then they will go back to bonding (probably by way of a loan that they pay back whilst you remain employed, but in your name) so that if you leave you take the problem of repayment with you.
PP
PP
Bonding by loan in my name....isn't that exactly what is happening at ezy?
Comunism has failed long ago, so have many principles by which business is done. Neither I or any individual can prevent this, wake up and smell reality of today's marked! All we can do is grap an opportunity when it comes along!
Want to change this reality? dream on, but I'm no Gandhi, so I won't join you. (don't have the time for it anyhow as I'm bussy flying)
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Originally Posted by Nick NOTOC
Bonding by loan in my name....isn't that exactly what is happening at ezy?
I know someone who has been offered a 737 type rating through another lo-co for £25k. I think this is outrageous and anyone who pays that amount is obviously desperate. This from the same training provider that (used to) provide 737 type ratings to individuals for much less than that, but now they see a great way to make more money and are full up with 'corporate' clients and won't provide the type to individuals.
Try working for an employer that pays you from day one, provides the training (or outsources it) and doesn't rip you off for the cost of it, plus pay you nothing or peanuts for as long as they can. It is catch 22 and I sympathize with pilots faced with the difficult choice, but stop being in such a rush to get into a jet and perhaps build some experience elsewhere and then you become more marketable and in the swiftly changing employment conditions we are now seeing it shouldn't be too long before you will be able to join a company without being completely stitched up.
PP
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Try working for an employer that pays you from day one
but stop being in such a rush to get into a jet and perhaps build some experience elsewhere and then you become more marketable and in the swiftly changing employment conditions we are now seeing it shouldn't be too long before you will be able to join a company without being completely stitched up.
Yes you, stop wanting to fly jets, know your place... climb the ladder.. Yada Yada Yada
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Nothing about knowing your place mate, just an alternative option that everyone keeps bleating isn't there. Or just accept that to get into the right seat of a jet with minimal hours is going to cost you an arm and a leg.......
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Do as I say, not as I do.
To get into the seat of most aeroplanes doesn't come cheap, sure. To buy a rating in order to get into the right seat of a jet, well yes, now you can start thinking about harvesting organs.
It is indeed an alternative - but compared to paying your way into an airline? Thanks but no thanks. It's unappealing to many - slow, poorly paid and most of all - uncertain.
It is indeed an alternative - but compared to paying your way into an airline? Thanks but no thanks. It's unappealing to many - slow, poorly paid and most of all - uncertain.
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@ pilot Pete
I cannot agree with your view on the ezy TRSS pay/bond scheme for the following reason:
If you are type rated it is only fair that you earn more then you non-rated fellow pilots, so is the case in ezy. To prevent any unfair treatment in actual fact you get your loan payed back which makes the cost of you and your type rated fellows equal.
and to sit and wait for a jet job..... with a few years heavy TP under the belt trying for the few jobs, I think I rather fly jet now than maybe wait one year longer, this way I will earn one more year top income at the end of my career.
Nick,
I cannot agree with your view on the ezy TRSS pay/bond scheme for the following reason:
If you are type rated it is only fair that you earn more then you non-rated fellow pilots, so is the case in ezy. To prevent any unfair treatment in actual fact you get your loan payed back which makes the cost of you and your type rated fellows equal.
and to sit and wait for a jet job..... with a few years heavy TP under the belt trying for the few jobs, I think I rather fly jet now than maybe wait one year longer, this way I will earn one more year top income at the end of my career.
Nick,
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God there are a lot of missinformed opinions on here!
Number one TRSS is a LOAN NOT A BOND.
Number two As a TRSS salary is reduced by the same amount - the individual IS paying for the type rating.
Number three - going away and gaining TP experience first does not exempt you from TRSS.
I was a TP skipper before joining EZY and I joined through TRSS, and I took a slight pay CUT to do so.
And to the t*&t who said that being type rated means you should earn more than those who join untype rated, what about the hoards of guys who joined untype rated in the past and enjoyed a straight forward bond and the same salary as their peers for doing the SAME job?
Also, as I joined right at the infancy of TRSS I had guys with similar and LESS experience than me on my course who were direct entry, with a bond and a salary right through their training, all because they were interviewed before me and had their course delayed!
Make no mistake TRSS is a CANCER in this industry, and I am guilty of signing up to it, however in my own defence I joined when jobs were scarse and no one held a gun to my head either, in todays market however I would advise guys to play hard ball at the interview say yes right up to the crunch, then say you are only willing to take direct entry, if they tell you to F*+k O£$ then there will be plenty of other outfits willing to take your cash for a rating right now so no loss!
Right now EZY needs pilots more than they ever have done before, a few more reality checks like empty recruitment days and people refusing TRSS, not to mention the odd TRE resignation and the wheel just might start to turn.
I've made my bed by signing up to TRSS, but no one will cheer louder for new joiners from TP backgrounds who once again get DE rather than TRSS then me!
Number one TRSS is a LOAN NOT A BOND.
Number two As a TRSS salary is reduced by the same amount - the individual IS paying for the type rating.
Number three - going away and gaining TP experience first does not exempt you from TRSS.
I was a TP skipper before joining EZY and I joined through TRSS, and I took a slight pay CUT to do so.
And to the t*&t who said that being type rated means you should earn more than those who join untype rated, what about the hoards of guys who joined untype rated in the past and enjoyed a straight forward bond and the same salary as their peers for doing the SAME job?
Also, as I joined right at the infancy of TRSS I had guys with similar and LESS experience than me on my course who were direct entry, with a bond and a salary right through their training, all because they were interviewed before me and had their course delayed!
Make no mistake TRSS is a CANCER in this industry, and I am guilty of signing up to it, however in my own defence I joined when jobs were scarse and no one held a gun to my head either, in todays market however I would advise guys to play hard ball at the interview say yes right up to the crunch, then say you are only willing to take direct entry, if they tell you to F*+k O£$ then there will be plenty of other outfits willing to take your cash for a rating right now so no loss!
Right now EZY needs pilots more than they ever have done before, a few more reality checks like empty recruitment days and people refusing TRSS, not to mention the odd TRE resignation and the wheel just might start to turn.
I've made my bed by signing up to TRSS, but no one will cheer louder for new joiners from TP backgrounds who once again get DE rather than TRSS then me!
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Originally Posted by ezydriver
Number three - going away and gaining TP experience first does not exempt you from TRSS.
Everything you have said ezydriver makes complete sense and the younger/ less experienced guys queueing up should listen to those with experience who speak about how things 'really are', as opposed to the tripe that is pedalled about how fair it is for type rated to earn more than non-type rated, different entry salary levels based on previous experience and the company's ability to convince you it is a great offer, the difference between a bond and a loan and a loan that is called a bond with an attached reduced starting salary and any other means of clawing training costs back from employees.
Until people start to view these schemes for what they are (airline cost reduction schemes) and start to realize that it is fast approaching a time when the airlines aren't going to find the required numbers with any relevant experience, then they will continue to pay up and believe that there is no alternative.
Nick, I suggest you pay your £25k, get your jet job and be content with your lot. Don't post on here though in a year or two's time about how unfair it is that you had to pay in some old scheme called a TRSS and new joiners don't have too.
PP
ps Edited to add that under your reasoning Nick, someone with 5,000hrs experience on say a 757 should earn less than someone who joins with 500hrs on a 737? I wager the 5,000hr guy would be a better F/O all other things being equal. Your theory is a can of worms mate.
Trouble is, Nick thinks that you pay the £23,000, and that easy then pay it back over 5 years. Quite a few people think this.
For the record, you pay easy £23,000 and then easy do NOT pay it back. They say they do, at a rate of £5000 a year, but hey ho, they reduce your salary by £5000 a year. So have a think, you pay your money and you get a normal salary, with NO pay back.
NO PAY BACK.
A bond is something you only pay back if you leave. TRSS you pay whether you leave or not. It's bollox. And no pay during training, no expenses and an unknown period between leaving your last job and starting the training (because you have to pass the AHC before they will allocate you a TR course). Don't forget to leave some extra £ for your uniform and other bits, and you'll get your base (mine was abroad for a year) sometime during your TR course. Overall allow £32,000 if you can live on the cheap.
easy have just asked me to sell back my leave because they're so short of pilots. The price I have offered....?
£23,000
For the record, you pay easy £23,000 and then easy do NOT pay it back. They say they do, at a rate of £5000 a year, but hey ho, they reduce your salary by £5000 a year. So have a think, you pay your money and you get a normal salary, with NO pay back.
NO PAY BACK.
A bond is something you only pay back if you leave. TRSS you pay whether you leave or not. It's bollox. And no pay during training, no expenses and an unknown period between leaving your last job and starting the training (because you have to pass the AHC before they will allocate you a TR course). Don't forget to leave some extra £ for your uniform and other bits, and you'll get your base (mine was abroad for a year) sometime during your TR course. Overall allow £32,000 if you can live on the cheap.
easy have just asked me to sell back my leave because they're so short of pilots. The price I have offered....?
£23,000
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Ok guy's
I see that no matter what the individual circumstances are TRSS is considered bad by you. To me and many others it doesn't. My net pay as TRSS now is better then it was before, the job gives me more time with the family, the future looks brighter and above all the flying is more fun!
That you get payed less equal the loan return is just a way to avoid being taxed on the loan "re-payment"
I just checked with a few friends who work at major carriers, and they do indeed get payed significantly less in their first years of service, it is called junior salary, no big difference there right.
In principle any scheme where you have to pay to work is bad, but again today's reality is unfortunuatly like this. No lawfirm will hire someone until he/she has at least completed the law degree, no hospital will hire a specialist that has not yet been trained, No taxi company will hire an 18 year old without a drivers licence.....no need to go on I guess..
Market mechanisms may put an end to TRSS (I hope so!!!) If that were to happen I also hope that EZY in all their wisdom and aim to become the best LOCO in the world will see the unfairness it does to it's loyal crew and come up with some form of compensation.
To create a sort of blame culture to anyone that has accepted the TRSS (for whatever reason) is IMHO below the belt. If you want to change the TRSS scheme, go ahead call your CEO tell him what you think, ballot your collegues about it, put BALPA up front on this, whatever but don't insult the TRSS pilots by telling them how stupid they are to accept this deal, when you have accepted the deal your selves as well. Oh, sorry that was another time, that made it all acceptable.......not!
Nick,
I see that no matter what the individual circumstances are TRSS is considered bad by you. To me and many others it doesn't. My net pay as TRSS now is better then it was before, the job gives me more time with the family, the future looks brighter and above all the flying is more fun!
That you get payed less equal the loan return is just a way to avoid being taxed on the loan "re-payment"
I just checked with a few friends who work at major carriers, and they do indeed get payed significantly less in their first years of service, it is called junior salary, no big difference there right.
In principle any scheme where you have to pay to work is bad, but again today's reality is unfortunuatly like this. No lawfirm will hire someone until he/she has at least completed the law degree, no hospital will hire a specialist that has not yet been trained, No taxi company will hire an 18 year old without a drivers licence.....no need to go on I guess..
Market mechanisms may put an end to TRSS (I hope so!!!) If that were to happen I also hope that EZY in all their wisdom and aim to become the best LOCO in the world will see the unfairness it does to it's loyal crew and come up with some form of compensation.
To create a sort of blame culture to anyone that has accepted the TRSS (for whatever reason) is IMHO below the belt. If you want to change the TRSS scheme, go ahead call your CEO tell him what you think, ballot your collegues about it, put BALPA up front on this, whatever but don't insult the TRSS pilots by telling them how stupid they are to accept this deal, when you have accepted the deal your selves as well. Oh, sorry that was another time, that made it all acceptable.......not!
Nick,