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British Airways DEP Selection - THE lowdown Part 1

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British Airways DEP Selection - THE lowdown Part 1

Old 5th Jan 2012, 16:36
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IAG have made it clear they will not run shorthaul at a loss. Stretching all pay points for all pilots does not solve their problem.
But stretching it for ONLY the new joiners does? What utter cr*p
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 16:39
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SS - By changes; you mean, changes "for anyone but me" - ad infinitum...
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 16:40
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Because only a very small fraction of new joiners ever go to long haul fleets. I thought that would've been obvious.
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 16:41
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Originally Posted by JW411
Didn't that start a long while ago when the old farts failed to stand up to the BA management's proposal to take on new pilots on a much reduced pension scheme and conditions?

BALPA really helped by supporting the old farts.

What a surprise.
It wasn't just the old farts, it was the young farts too. You can kick, scream, yell, pound the sand or go on strike as much as you want but it won't change one iota the fact that final salary pension schemes don't add up anymore in the UK. Burying your head in the sand won't change that. The oft quoted gas fitters strike didn't save their pension either.

I find it quite disingenuous for BA pilots to blame everything on easyJet and Ryanair when they didn't have the balls to stop what was, in essence, a "B" scale happening in their own company.
See above. It's not about balls, it's about money. There ain't enough to pay unlimited pensions costs and stay in business. No amount of cojones changes that.

I don't think there is one single pilot currently serving in BA who, in the final analysis, is prepared to give up any of his existing conditions in order to support BMI joiners or the chaps in the famous swimming pool.
And why should they? bmi will keep what they've got, BA pilots won't. Why should anyone else dig deep into their own pockets to fund them? I'll reconsider if you start turning over your state pension to people who've had their child benefit cut - all in the name of unity of course. Solidarity brothers!
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 16:42
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TT nope, I've taken my hits over the years. I dont have an APS pension. I took a pay cut a few years back.
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 16:42
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Because only a very small fraction of new joiners ever go to long haul fleets. I thought that would've been obvious.
That is simply wrong, period.

From the company I used to work at, in the last year I can think of 7 new joiners. 2 went short haul.
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 16:51
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As I think someone said earlier, this is not a negotiation. BA set the targets. We either take the full baseball bat or nothing at all and see BA Express set up. BA aren't interested in settling for just 6 inches.
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 16:53
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Fat Dog,

Ah I see...sorry I must be wrong, your straw poll of 7 pilots from a previous company makes that clear.

Oh wait, what about FPP cadets, SSP pilots, military, DEP's.

There are periods when they cant get bums on LH seats quick enough, but it doesn't last long.

You're taking crap mate!
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 16:57
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IAG have made it clear they will not run shorthaul at a loss. Stretching all pay points for all pilots does not solve their problem.
And you're not talking crap, 'mate'?
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 16:58
  #3250 (permalink)  
 
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So, it would appear that potential joiners to BA want current BA pilots to voluntary move from a 24-point pay scale to a 34-point pay scale, so that all the pilots can experience some sort of unity? How quaint.

A 34-point pay scale is not contracted for those already in BA, nor is it what they signed up for, and I don't think you would get a single serving BA pilot even contemplating it! Why? Not because they are bad people, but because there is no justifiable reason for them to somehow subsidise the pay of new joiners. All those advocating the 'fluffy unity' pay scale option - you wouldn't do it if you were already in BA!

Those wishing to join BA in the future still have the option of turning down any contract offered, but my sympathies do lie with the folk already in the hold pool, awaiting an offer. This will come as a blow, I know. You'll have to make some serious decisions about whether it is something you can live with.

For the 'fluffy unity' wannabes - get real!
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 16:59
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As I think someone said earlier, this is not a negotiation
Oh sorry, I must have stumbled into the ryanair thread

there is no justifiable reason for them to somehow subsidise the pay of new joiners

I think you will find it will be the new joiners subsidising your salaries.
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 17:02
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Studi,

BA might not want to run a seperate entity but will if we dont agree. It really is that simple. Scope only applies to the BA Opco which is why it is so important for BMI to be intergrated. If BMI falls under IAG scope cannot be legally enforced. What we are voting on is the price of the integration.

Fat Dog, no I'm not, but like I said I wouldn't expect you to understand the issues.

Nobody likes it, not the existing pilots, soon to join, or the unborn. We are all disappointed.

Anyway, I just thought I might try and help some of those in the pool understand the reasoning of why we are where we are. Now all the anti's have emerged I shall bow out and keep myself to myself.

Good luck all.
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 17:04
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Why are you BA pilots so afraid of BMI pilots helping creating a BA Express? Why don't you offer integration of every single BMI pilot into the existing BA contract, including full recognition of their BMI time seniority wise.
On what planet would this even be on offer, raising costs?

LH are a financial disaster zone with Germanwings holding a dire market share while Emirates are eating up the longhaul transfer traffic on which LH survive unlike BA. A disaster second only to AF-KLM - I cannot see that being an example for IAG to follow.

As someone above has said, the decision has been made and we are not in possession of the facts and circumstances that the reps had to face at the time.

This is painful, but it averages down the cost of the workforce over time, doing the opposite of how low-cost airlines tend to actually get more expensive over time.

Those wishing to join BA in the future still have the option of turning down any contract offered, but my sympathies do lie with the folk already in the hold pool, awaiting an offer. This will come as a blow, I know. You'll have to make some serious decisions about whether it is something you can live with.
Thank you: appreciated. Some of us have already resigned jobs to be FPP cadets and are totally over the barrel so to speak.

Last edited by Fate Hunter; 5th Jan 2012 at 17:42.
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 17:08
  #3254 (permalink)  

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So, it would appear that potential joiners to BA want current BA pilots to voluntary move from a 24-point pay scale to a 34-point pay scale, so that all the pilots can experience some sort of unity? How quaint.
I'm sure the Lufthansa pilots will appreciate you calling them "quaint"! Isn't that what studi is telling you they did? And these are pilots with even more to lose than BA pilots!

How is it that the Germans can see what really matters here, and the British can't?

Does one wonder why London is the global centre of finance...err greed, it is?

Which is why we're here in the first place....
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 17:08
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I think you will find it will be the new joiners subsidising your salaries.
It's always been the case. Join on PP1 you are subsidising the guy on PP10 who's doing the same job as you for more money. Get a command on PP10 and you're subsidising the captain on PP24 who's doin ghte same job as you for more money. Until everybody works on a flat rate somebody will always be subsidising someone else. Why is this news to you?

@SR71 - Germanwings is owned by Lufthansa. BA are not buying bmi. IAG, an offshore holding entity based in Spain with no unions and no European Works Council, are buying bmi. BALPA are one step removed from those who make the decisions at IAG. I doubt the VC would be quite so effective if they were dealing with that kind of entity. For a bonus point, can you name any IAG employee other than Willie Walsh without googling it?
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 17:13
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Fat dog, you made me laugh there. Nice one!

Your judgement based on 7 pilots. Indisputable!

Up to the end Dec there were approximately 140 new joiners and of those 39 went to the jumbo. That was to plug the hole opened by the returning 744 from the desert. Now they have returned and the hole filled I wouldn't count on there being many more. Also I believe that all courses running Jan-Mar are all SH. With the odd exception maybe for the 76.
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 17:14
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LH are a financial disaster zone

Even the BA CFO's letter yesterday shows the comparison of BA longhaul ASK's versus LH's longhaul ASK's over the past 10 years, demonstrating....

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Old 5th Jan 2012, 17:18
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Fat dog, you made me laugh there. Nice one!

Your judgement based on 7 pilots. Indisputable!

Up to the end Dec there were approximately 140 new joiners and of those 39 went to the jumbo. That was to plug the hole opened by the returning 744 from the desert. Now they have returned and the hole filled I wouldn't count on there being many more. Also I believe that all courses running Jan-Mar are all SH. With the odd exception maybe for the 76.
Whether I am correct or not is irrelevant; the point being made is that forcing the 34 PP on the new joiners only does not in any way solve the 'short haul' problem. By the time real savings are being made on the new joiners salaries (e.g. after 10 years), guess what, they won't be on short haul (unless by their choice).
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 17:18
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Why is this news to you?
It isnt, you stated that if current BA pilots share some of the cost saving burden you will somehow be subsidising the new joiners. You yourself have now proven that statement wrong.

Im dissapointed with the slightly reduced pay points, my crude maths calculates only a £800 year on year difference on the FO scale BEFORE tax, its not the end of the world.

But by effectively splitting the workforce with 2 payscales, there is a HUGE danger of creating a divided workforce, how can current BA pilots not see this?
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 17:19
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LH are a disaster zone

Chasing capacity and revenue is not good business. Nor is buying a basket case like bmi to simply lose a fortune. Nor Austrian, SN Brussels, Sky Chefs. Shall I go on?

You will note that ASKs are available seat kms: you can fly a lot of empty seats around or at low profit and look big while your investors commit suicide

We are seriously off topic now

Last edited by Fate Hunter; 5th Jan 2012 at 17:33.
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