British Airways DEP Selection - THE lowdown Part 1
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Ok, I don't have a say in the vote and sitting on forums isn't how I want to spend my time so heres my thoughts:
1) I can't believe that a decision to merge two airlines rests on pay scales and chipping away at conditions. They're bluffing, BA pilots are scared, BALPA have been caught off guard (not unusual in my experience) and so they'll get this through, they've wanted to address this issue for a long time and this is a neat way of doing it. They have decided that simply on a business case they want to merge the two. Be it service levels or commonality of training or management, I don't know but Id say that they have decided this no matter what.
2) The deal will take quite a while, Virgin will protest as much as possible in the hope of picking up some cheap slots, therefore BA pilots would be wise to bide their time and think about all options.
3) Any B scale will be divisive and will haunt A listers down the line. This is a serious concern, the IPA are garnering support, they'd be well advised to recruit the new B listers and one day BALPA may find itself with a minority of members. I wouldn't join BALPA, its not the money its the principle Ive seen them get this stiff wrong again and again, you've only got to look at their leadership to understand the problems which go right to the core.
4) Everybody wants the business to succeed but you can never believe what you're told, we all have different incentives.
5) You need to draw the line, they asked for a pay cut, you fell back. They asked you to help with the CC strikes you did (a mistake) now a B scale.
It is time you said this far and no further.
1) I can't believe that a decision to merge two airlines rests on pay scales and chipping away at conditions. They're bluffing, BA pilots are scared, BALPA have been caught off guard (not unusual in my experience) and so they'll get this through, they've wanted to address this issue for a long time and this is a neat way of doing it. They have decided that simply on a business case they want to merge the two. Be it service levels or commonality of training or management, I don't know but Id say that they have decided this no matter what.
2) The deal will take quite a while, Virgin will protest as much as possible in the hope of picking up some cheap slots, therefore BA pilots would be wise to bide their time and think about all options.
3) Any B scale will be divisive and will haunt A listers down the line. This is a serious concern, the IPA are garnering support, they'd be well advised to recruit the new B listers and one day BALPA may find itself with a minority of members. I wouldn't join BALPA, its not the money its the principle Ive seen them get this stiff wrong again and again, you've only got to look at their leadership to understand the problems which go right to the core.
4) Everybody wants the business to succeed but you can never believe what you're told, we all have different incentives.
5) You need to draw the line, they asked for a pay cut, you fell back. They asked you to help with the CC strikes you did (a mistake) now a B scale.
It is time you said this far and no further.
It is time you said this far and no further.
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HiWing
I don't think that is particularly fair to the BALPA reps really. IB Express demonstrates that IAG is perfectly capable and willing to set up duplicate operations at the same hub airport under the same brand and selling to the same customers, purely to undermine the perpetuation of an expensive workforce. Pragmatism rather than militancy is the way to get to the most ideal position in the long run.
The IB guys are dead in the water having taken the alternative route with the way they have dealt with IB management - no recruitment for 11 years counting, and no prospects as the fleet is transferred out to IB Express. With minimum service requirements in Spain, longhaul services are unaffected by strikes while shorthaul will cease to exist in mainline before too long. Game, set and match.
Regardless of whether we here perceive it as right or wrong, Ts & Cs are very good at BA, albeit competitive compared to IB, AF-KLM and LH, but still above what many could hope to receive at many other UK operators.
Simply drawing a straight line to the original top paypoint salary and extending it to the new PP34 does not seem fair, but we are not privy to the negotiations that took place.
I think on balance, the ability to combine bmi, new DEPs, FPPs and current mainline under one single seniority list with the ability to negotiate together in future is very important - you only have to look at the far worse backstabbing that exists in the cabin crew community when the representation is not coordinated.
Yes, it is a real shame, but we chose to work in the airline industry. Collectively it has not made a net profit throughout its history yet despite subsidies and protectionism galore.
From the individual perspective, it would be unwise for us as new entrants to help create any gulf with existing mainline crew over this issue. No doubt there will be other, future combinations and events over our careers at which time the position of BALPA may be far stronger than that of IAG/BA, which could enable reversal / streamlining.
I feel better about this than the alternative of joining the bottom of a new BA Express, which had been my greater fear for the past few months.
I do not feel this is in any way the same sort of trojan horse as the new CX cadets are - nobody can support a family and live in HK in any reasonable accomodation with what is on offer now in that business, and with so few common causes, that really is a divise workforce.
Binsleepin - does that analysis translate to the P1 scales, as I doubt anyone will make PP34 as P2...
I don't think that is particularly fair to the BALPA reps really. IB Express demonstrates that IAG is perfectly capable and willing to set up duplicate operations at the same hub airport under the same brand and selling to the same customers, purely to undermine the perpetuation of an expensive workforce. Pragmatism rather than militancy is the way to get to the most ideal position in the long run.
The IB guys are dead in the water having taken the alternative route with the way they have dealt with IB management - no recruitment for 11 years counting, and no prospects as the fleet is transferred out to IB Express. With minimum service requirements in Spain, longhaul services are unaffected by strikes while shorthaul will cease to exist in mainline before too long. Game, set and match.
Regardless of whether we here perceive it as right or wrong, Ts & Cs are very good at BA, albeit competitive compared to IB, AF-KLM and LH, but still above what many could hope to receive at many other UK operators.
Simply drawing a straight line to the original top paypoint salary and extending it to the new PP34 does not seem fair, but we are not privy to the negotiations that took place.
I think on balance, the ability to combine bmi, new DEPs, FPPs and current mainline under one single seniority list with the ability to negotiate together in future is very important - you only have to look at the far worse backstabbing that exists in the cabin crew community when the representation is not coordinated.
Yes, it is a real shame, but we chose to work in the airline industry. Collectively it has not made a net profit throughout its history yet despite subsidies and protectionism galore.
From the individual perspective, it would be unwise for us as new entrants to help create any gulf with existing mainline crew over this issue. No doubt there will be other, future combinations and events over our careers at which time the position of BALPA may be far stronger than that of IAG/BA, which could enable reversal / streamlining.
I feel better about this than the alternative of joining the bottom of a new BA Express, which had been my greater fear for the past few months.
I do not feel this is in any way the same sort of trojan horse as the new CX cadets are - nobody can support a family and live in HK in any reasonable accomodation with what is on offer now in that business, and with so few common causes, that really is a divise workforce.
Binsleepin - does that analysis translate to the P1 scales, as I doubt anyone will make PP34 as P2...
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Lufthansa and Germanwings seem to be operating successfully as separate companies, while (low-cost) Germanwings is 100% owned by Lufthansa. Can anyone explain why Germanwings can operate successfully without undercutting Lufthansa's routes and preventing Lufthansa from growing further? Anyone knows what agreements the German Pilot Union have with Lufthansa and Germanwings?
Maybe there's something to be learnt from their situation in case a BA-express is created..
Maybe there's something to be learnt from their situation in case a BA-express is created..
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what would be great is if those already in the pool are offered old contracts, since that is what we applied for. I know some will see it under a different light but as many have said why would anyone with a command around the corner at EZY leave for BA under new lower T&Cs...
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The big question for me is how this will affect those of us who have had contracts issued already but have yet to start? Contracts that were agreed upon and referenced against the terms contained within the various pilot agreements that exist. Just randomly changing those contractual t&c's without consultation to a set of terms I might not necessarily have agreed to prior signing the contract just smacks of the tactics I've seen used in the past with a certain loco operator.
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Brian
Someone asked just that question last night at the Management Briefing regarding BA / Bmi.
Basically if you have already signed a contract you will be on the old 24 pay point scale. If you have yet to get a contract then you we be informed as to what you are signing up for.
Someone asked just that question last night at the Management Briefing regarding BA / Bmi.
Basically if you have already signed a contract you will be on the old 24 pay point scale. If you have yet to get a contract then you we be informed as to what you are signing up for.
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what would be great is if those alteady in the pool are offered old contracts, since that is what we applied for. I know some will see it under a different light but as many have said why would anyone with a command around the corner at EZY leave for BA under new lower T&Cs...
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Surely that would be even messier given bmi guys are effectively joining before those DEP joiners, though I echo the sentiment as a cadet that I thought I knew the payscales I was recruited to, even if I will be joining in 2013/2014
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Fate Hunter,
If one gets a command around year 12-15 then does 20 years or so on the command scale the disparity between the old and new scales gets even worse. I haven't worked it out but I wouldn't be surprised if the difference over a career was approaching £1/2 million.!!!!
regards
If one gets a command around year 12-15 then does 20 years or so on the command scale the disparity between the old and new scales gets even worse. I haven't worked it out but I wouldn't be surprised if the difference over a career was approaching £1/2 million.!!!!
regards
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CB
I believe that is a way of IAG attempting to negotiate/get rid of the recent ruling allowing us to be given a salary based on the average month (with flight and duty pay) and not just the basic pay when on annual leave, which was previously the case.
"You will destroy unity in BA!"
Didn't that start a long while ago when the old farts failed to stand up to the BA management's proposal to take on new pilots on a much reduced pension scheme and conditions?
BALPA really helped by supporting the old farts.
What a surprise.
I find it quite disingenuous for BA pilots to blame everything on easyJet and Ryanair when they didn't have the balls to stop what was, in essence, a "B" scale happening in their own company.
"Unity in BA?"
You must be bloody joking.
I don't think there is one single pilot currently serving in BA who, in the final analysis, is prepared to give up any of his existing conditions in order to support BMI joiners or the chaps in the famous swimming pool.
I would love to be proved wrong.
Anyway, this is turning out to be a pretty entertaining thread. I am glad that I have retired.
Didn't that start a long while ago when the old farts failed to stand up to the BA management's proposal to take on new pilots on a much reduced pension scheme and conditions?
BALPA really helped by supporting the old farts.
What a surprise.
I find it quite disingenuous for BA pilots to blame everything on easyJet and Ryanair when they didn't have the balls to stop what was, in essence, a "B" scale happening in their own company.
"Unity in BA?"
You must be bloody joking.
I don't think there is one single pilot currently serving in BA who, in the final analysis, is prepared to give up any of his existing conditions in order to support BMI joiners or the chaps in the famous swimming pool.
I would love to be proved wrong.
Anyway, this is turning out to be a pretty entertaining thread. I am glad that I have retired.
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IAG may be prepared to, but it doesn’t want to create 'BA Express', if it did it wouldn’t be entering negotiations. It would just do it.
IAG would much rather mainline BA become more competitive, so you have more bargaining power than IAG are letting you believe.
I’m sure BA does need to change, I’m not against the idea of stretching the pay points, but allowing the company to create 2 pay scales will end in tears for the new pilots in the short term and the 'A scalers' in the long term. The burden should be shared by all and unity maintained.
If BALPA and its BA members agree to this 'splitting' of the workforce, it will be a massive own goal and BALPA should no longer be allowed to call itself a UNION.
IAG would much rather mainline BA become more competitive, so you have more bargaining power than IAG are letting you believe.
I’m sure BA does need to change, I’m not against the idea of stretching the pay points, but allowing the company to create 2 pay scales will end in tears for the new pilots in the short term and the 'A scalers' in the long term. The burden should be shared by all and unity maintained.
If BALPA and its BA members agree to this 'splitting' of the workforce, it will be a massive own goal and BALPA should no longer be allowed to call itself a UNION.
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Surely it's obvious!
Also you seem to be under the impression that this is some form of negotiation. It's not. The decisions have been made the trains about to leave. We are being asked (thanks to BALPA, because there were many on the borad who didn't want to ask) if we would like to get on board YES or NO.
IAG have made it clear they will not run shorthaul at a loss. Stretching all pay points for all pilots does not solve their problem.
Whether we like it or not the airline industry is evolving thanks to lo-cost. Those who refuse to accept the new order are dying (Qantas/Iberia and others). I don't have an APS pension, Barp guys don't have a NAPS pension, new joiners will not have 24 pay points. but it is for these reasons the company is still here and has not gone the way of others.
Do those who criticise BA pilots for not defending APS seriously think BA would still exist today if changes hadn't been made?
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IAG have made it clear they will not run shorthaul at a loss. Stretching all pay points for all pilots does not solve their problem.