British Airways DEP Selection - THE lowdown Part 1
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Studi,
Broke within a week? Not a chance. IAG has one hell of a war chest. We would have every right to strike for higher wages but not for people in another company which is what BMI would be if we don't integrate them with existing BA. I guess your argument is we strike after the integration is through then to improve things? That's where IAG are being clever by getting us to agree to this rather than just imposing it so we've no weapon to use later as any court in the land will point out we signed for this. And if we don't sign for it then, as I say above, BMI will be used to setup BA2 and we will have no legal right to strike on their behalf as they will be a totally different company.
The argument about replacements not being available is irrelevant because Willy can ensure no strike can legally happen to start with as I describe above. Either we sign up to this or he goes his own way with BMI. There is no middle ground that LEGALLY allows us to strike. We either dance to his tune on this one or BMI becomes the tumour that grows to subsume us in BA in the long run. At no point is there actually going to be a legal opportunity to strike on this one.
The nub is if we don't like what's on offer, it will never become part of our existing company so we have no right to strike.
Broke within a week? Not a chance. IAG has one hell of a war chest. We would have every right to strike for higher wages but not for people in another company which is what BMI would be if we don't integrate them with existing BA. I guess your argument is we strike after the integration is through then to improve things? That's where IAG are being clever by getting us to agree to this rather than just imposing it so we've no weapon to use later as any court in the land will point out we signed for this. And if we don't sign for it then, as I say above, BMI will be used to setup BA2 and we will have no legal right to strike on their behalf as they will be a totally different company.
The argument about replacements not being available is irrelevant because Willy can ensure no strike can legally happen to start with as I describe above. Either we sign up to this or he goes his own way with BMI. There is no middle ground that LEGALLY allows us to strike. We either dance to his tune on this one or BMI becomes the tumour that grows to subsume us in BA in the long run. At no point is there actually going to be a legal opportunity to strike on this one.
The nub is if we don't like what's on offer, it will never become part of our existing company so we have no right to strike.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr Bunker, Mr Benoulli, Wibblestorm and others like you who spent hours criticising BA's cabin crew here on PPRUNE, and now in such a short amount of time will suffer, this enormous reversal of fortune.
The actions of hundreds of BA pilots weakened trade unionism at BA. Indeed one of your BALPA reps even had to resign temporarily, so he could fly as a vonlunteer cabin crew member. If the cabin crew had of achieved a better result without the interference of BA's flight crew, which greatly undermined and influenced the course of the dispute, every group of workers in BA would be in better shape to face down an aggressive opportunist like Walsh.
BA flight crew are now damned whichever way they turn. In many ways their predicament is worse than the cabin crew.
The actions of hundreds of BA pilots weakened trade unionism at BA. Indeed one of your BALPA reps even had to resign temporarily, so he could fly as a vonlunteer cabin crew member. If the cabin crew had of achieved a better result without the interference of BA's flight crew, which greatly undermined and influenced the course of the dispute, every group of workers in BA would be in better shape to face down an aggressive opportunist like Walsh.
BA flight crew are now damned whichever way they turn. In many ways their predicament is worse than the cabin crew.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CHESHIRE
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SkyRocket10
Unfortunately and I think why the company aren't discussing the issue of seniority is that since the Dan Air and Cityflyer takeovers legislation has changed within Europe. Companies now acquiring/merging with another are required to maintain seniority, therefore merging the BA/BMI seniority list. Where a BA pilot and BMI pilot in this case join on the same day, the employee of the 'acquiring' company will have the higher seniority. The talk regading increased opportunities for BA mainline, therefore is negated as the additional slots in net terms are not an increase (covered by the exisiting workforce, ie BMI) The proposed opportunities are also a smoke screen as BMI has not had any significant recruitment for the last 7-10 years and as such SFO/FO in the acquiring company, BA will therefore find themselves several hundred places further down the seniority list, therefore adding a number of years to attain command. This is why we are being asked to vote without being given sufficient information to make an informed decision.
If the cabin crew had of achieved a better result without the interference of BA's flight crew
..... But I digress
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: the OFCR......and probably somewhere over China zzzzzzzz
Posts: 219
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
do you seriously think anyone else will buy a BMI full of militant pilots? Do you seriously think Willy will sell a BMI which has taken over some longhaul routes? He needs the vehicle as much to put pressure on his other two airlines
The integration of bmi solves a fleet replacement issue for SH@Gatwick. The assests could be sent to the 'little grass strip' as it is so often refered to, and the bucket and spade LH can move to LHR where new slots just opened up. Combined with new LH assests to serve emerging markets, as was previously mentioned as an IAG/BA intention, the slot pairs can be allocated to LH growth. As for SH feed into LH, if only 36% is transfer traffic on SH why not
expand codesharing and cut overheads associated with a full SH product?
Perhaps in time its full circle and back to BOAC and BEA??
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr Bunker, Mr Benoulli, Wibblestorm and others like you who spent hours criticising BA's cabin crew here on PPRUNE, and now in such a short amount of time will suffer, this enormous reversal of fortune.
The actions of hundreds of BA pilots weakened trade unionism at BA. Indeed one of your BALPA reps even had to resign temporarily, so he could fly as a vonlunteer cabin crew member. If the cabin crew had of achieved a better result without the interference of BA's flight crew, which greatly undermined and influenced the course of the dispute, every group of workers in BA would be in better shape to face down an aggressive opportunist like Walsh.
BA flight crew are now damned whichever way they turn. In many ways their predicament is worse than the cabin crew.
The actions of hundreds of BA pilots weakened trade unionism at BA. Indeed one of your BALPA reps even had to resign temporarily, so he could fly as a vonlunteer cabin crew member. If the cabin crew had of achieved a better result without the interference of BA's flight crew, which greatly undermined and influenced the course of the dispute, every group of workers in BA would be in better shape to face down an aggressive opportunist like Walsh.
BA flight crew are now damned whichever way they turn. In many ways their predicament is worse than the cabin crew.
1) No we won't. We're negotiating to integrate new joiners onto the same "fleet" if you like. You negotiated away the right to integrate mixed fleet. That means you're dead on the vine. There'll never be any new legacy cabin crew. We're ensuring the survival, albeit on revised terms, of the "legacy" flight crew. Except we're not legacy - we'll still be the one and only pilot body in BA. We've one seniority list. We don't have LGW, LGW(LCY sub fleet) EF, WW and MF. Everyone's on the same list. Everyone.
2) Trades unionism in BA and the wider UK was weakened by successive legislation and by a series of spectacularly poorly thought out industrial actions. Including your own. It's telling that yet again you choose to focus on the pilots on the reason your strike failed. Remember more members of your own mother union, Unite, crossed the picket line either as non-striking cabin crew or as volunteers than ever did pilots. We were relatively too busy flying the planes still. Half your colleagues went in and the majority of the VCC were made up of ground branches. "Our" influence on your dispute was collectively modest. But that doesn't suit the "we hate flight crew and all they do to us" motif, does it? So crack on, point out how we wielded such influence. After all, if we did, we'd be able to negotiate anything we liked with the boss wouldn't we? Wouldn't we?
3) Again we're not damned. We're negotiating for a slice of the future. It might be a slimmer slice but it's a slice nonetheless. The clever machinations of BASSA et al have left you with a dead and diminishing body. Wonder how small Willy will let you get before you become a total irrelevance. That's why we're still fighting hard to have BMI integrated, so we're still an existing and growing collective body. Do tell me though, for a laugh, how our predicament is any worse than the one you placed yourselves squarely in?
Anyway don't you have to be off filling in the anonymous feedback survey about upgrades and other things you want to stamp your foot about?
That all said, we've been round this merry-go-round before and we know we won't agree. You'll never answer the questions and I'll never agree with your hollow rhetoric so shall we let the thread get back to the whys and wherefores of the possible integration of BMI and you can tell everyone elsewhere how you socked another bullseye to the gullible flight crew?
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MORETEA
The BIG difference this time is that it's IAG buying BMI, not BA. Before IAG integrate any aspect of BMI, they will first close any areas of the business they no longer require. Unfortunately this may mean shutting down baby and regional. At this stage the employees will have no recourse to positions in other subsidaries of IAG.
From information gained so far it seems IAG have every intention of running BMI alongside for a period of time before integrating. This period of time will allow for SOP's to be consolodated, and more importantly for any TUPE arrangements to be agreed. At this stage, as a BMI employee under the IAG umbrella, the BA and BMI councils will come together to negociate a solution for issues such as seniority post merger.
To give added peace of mind, the BACC and BA Ops have already communicated that no BA pilot will be disadvantaged by a merger. I think we will all be pleasantly surprised by the outcome. The final proposal will also be subject to a subsequent ballot so I believe this will eliminate any potential for underhand tactics by the company later on.
From information gained so far it seems IAG have every intention of running BMI alongside for a period of time before integrating. This period of time will allow for SOP's to be consolodated, and more importantly for any TUPE arrangements to be agreed. At this stage, as a BMI employee under the IAG umbrella, the BA and BMI councils will come together to negociate a solution for issues such as seniority post merger.
To give added peace of mind, the BACC and BA Ops have already communicated that no BA pilot will be disadvantaged by a merger. I think we will all be pleasantly surprised by the outcome. The final proposal will also be subject to a subsequent ballot so I believe this will eliminate any potential for underhand tactics by the company later on.
Mach 3
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Stratosphere
Posts: 622
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unfortunately this may mean shutting down baby and regional. At this stage the employees will have no recourse to positions in other subsidaries of IAG.
Conversely, if you vote for integration, he can't just get rid of these pilots because he's recruiting pilots from the open market at the moment and thats illegal isn't it?
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Uk
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Any idea when ths merger may happen, Purely in respect to the merging of lists. I accept i will be on a B scale and greedy as it may sound could I have 300 BMI pilots behind if I join before they officially merge. If of course they are forced to join at the bottom.
Join Date: Dec 1998
Location: Oxford, UK
Posts: 368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Allow,
Nothing formal as yet but I believe the intention is to run the two side by side for some time to allow for the smooth blending of SOP's, de-duplication of back-office functions etc. I'd heard 2-3 years but I must stress that's grapevine stuff!
Cheers
Nothing formal as yet but I believe the intention is to run the two side by side for some time to allow for the smooth blending of SOP's, de-duplication of back-office functions etc. I'd heard 2-3 years but I must stress that's grapevine stuff!
Cheers
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: London, UK
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pilots working for a subsidary under the IAG umbrella do not have any legal right to a position in another subsidary. This is exactly what the openskies pilots (working under IAG) found out recently. If your theory was correct, Iberia pilots would automatically be able to transfer to BA in the event of future job cuts, and as we all know this is not the case. Unfortunately as it's IAG initially buying BMI you have no right to a job in BA, until of course they are merged, which will inevitably occur after they have made the necessary cuts/redundancies.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: CHESHIRE
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even though IAG are acquiring BMI, companies under the umbrella of IAG, providing they do not merge, maintain their own seniority list. If a circumstance arises whereby IAG choses do direct a merger between two of it's own subsidiaries then the case of the merged seniority list applies and all that this entails. BA can suggest that none of it's pilots will be disadvantaged and legally they are not breaking any laws of employment in that no redundancies are forecast, no significant changes to terms and conditions are being suggested and for the junior SFO/FOs they will still have a career progression within BA, albeit delayed commands. This last point however becomes a major bone of contention with the age demographic of both BMI and BA.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BA Pilots do not have a right to strike over the terms and conditions or the expansion plans of another subsiduary of the IAG umbrella. To do so would be secondary action thus illegal.
To allow the formation of a secondary company within LHR would be mainline suicide. IAG, not BA, IAG own the slots out of Heathrow and thus can allocate them how they will. If 'BA Express' were to be formed then expansion, new routes and slot pairs would be fed to them. The structures, back office work and marketing would all be BA with a lower delivery cost. The LHR mainline would wither. As a business excercise returning profitability to the shareholders it is an enticing future. IAG could market, paint and fly the aircraft as 'British Airways' as the Scope clause offers no protection for aircraft operated outside of the 'BA owned and operated' banner.
The transition would be difficult and, whatever Count Neimeyer wishes to spout, the working relationship between BALPA BACC and the company has allowed us an opportunity to integrate the two even if this were, in the short term, to be more expensive to the company. We are all required to adapt in order to survive in these new economic conditions, conditions that I don't see changing for a long time.
There is no comparison, once again, between this and the CC dispute as BACC are negotiating fully and presenting all and every fact to the pilot membership. The meetings that are taking place between the pilots and the management are open, full and frank. The lines of communication are honest and brutally open. The decisions will be made by the pilot workforce, not by the company council. We, as a professional body, are prepared to give up something to achieve a sustainable future for both those of us currently employed and those future employees. Something that BASSA could never claim. It was often spouted on the BASSA forum that the Pilots time would come and I always replied that I was certain it would. Now that we have challenges ahead we will deal with them as we always have, through negotiation.
If the merger takes place and the fleets are combined then the future looks steady and fulfilling in Mainline. If not then the medium term future for SH looks quite rocky and the long term for LH also. As I will e kicking it back in the Maldives drinking cocktails by then I really don't care but those of you looking to join now should dig a little deeper before trying to cajole the current employees into strike action. It is ill concieved and without basis.
As always, time will tell.
To allow the formation of a secondary company within LHR would be mainline suicide. IAG, not BA, IAG own the slots out of Heathrow and thus can allocate them how they will. If 'BA Express' were to be formed then expansion, new routes and slot pairs would be fed to them. The structures, back office work and marketing would all be BA with a lower delivery cost. The LHR mainline would wither. As a business excercise returning profitability to the shareholders it is an enticing future. IAG could market, paint and fly the aircraft as 'British Airways' as the Scope clause offers no protection for aircraft operated outside of the 'BA owned and operated' banner.
The transition would be difficult and, whatever Count Neimeyer wishes to spout, the working relationship between BALPA BACC and the company has allowed us an opportunity to integrate the two even if this were, in the short term, to be more expensive to the company. We are all required to adapt in order to survive in these new economic conditions, conditions that I don't see changing for a long time.
There is no comparison, once again, between this and the CC dispute as BACC are negotiating fully and presenting all and every fact to the pilot membership. The meetings that are taking place between the pilots and the management are open, full and frank. The lines of communication are honest and brutally open. The decisions will be made by the pilot workforce, not by the company council. We, as a professional body, are prepared to give up something to achieve a sustainable future for both those of us currently employed and those future employees. Something that BASSA could never claim. It was often spouted on the BASSA forum that the Pilots time would come and I always replied that I was certain it would. Now that we have challenges ahead we will deal with them as we always have, through negotiation.
If the merger takes place and the fleets are combined then the future looks steady and fulfilling in Mainline. If not then the medium term future for SH looks quite rocky and the long term for LH also. As I will e kicking it back in the Maldives drinking cocktails by then I really don't care but those of you looking to join now should dig a little deeper before trying to cajole the current employees into strike action. It is ill concieved and without basis.
As always, time will tell.
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Hang on, let me check the FMS...
Posts: 195
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ok, so BA BALPA allow the creation of a second payscale, to stop the creation of 'BA Express' - I'm not saying this is the WRONG decision, however....
If the SCOPE clause is now worthless under the IAG group, what stops the company next year saying... All new joiners must have no staff travel or we will create BA Express. The year after that all new joiners will have no bid lines or guess what? We will start BA Express. Or just plainly saying we are starting BA Express ALL join it otherwise redundancy is coming your way?
If the answer is nothing, BALPA has negotiated its way into insignificance, unless of course BALPA are getting a new SCOPE by accepting these changes.
Some people on hear have taken my comments as an attack on BA pilots, they are not, they are directed towards a union that is clearly no longer fit for purpose. Maybe my remarks belong on a seperate thread.
If the SCOPE clause is now worthless under the IAG group, what stops the company next year saying... All new joiners must have no staff travel or we will create BA Express. The year after that all new joiners will have no bid lines or guess what? We will start BA Express. Or just plainly saying we are starting BA Express ALL join it otherwise redundancy is coming your way?
If the answer is nothing, BALPA has negotiated its way into insignificance, unless of course BALPA are getting a new SCOPE by accepting these changes.
Some people on hear have taken my comments as an attack on BA pilots, they are not, they are directed towards a union that is clearly no longer fit for purpose. Maybe my remarks belong on a seperate thread.
Last edited by FlyingTinCans; 6th Jan 2012 at 15:00.
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,279
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Studi,
There is no BA Express, and as far as we are concerned there will be no BA express. You can only fight what exists and not future scenarios. If you want to see an example of this look at the Openskies dispute where there was no legal grounds to fight on what could/might/perhaps will be.
There is no dispute at the moment, there is no 'fight' at the moment, there is nothing to go on strike about at the moment nor in the future either. It is quite simply that we either accept that Short Haul out of LHR under the BA Brand is not profitable and that we ALL, LH and SH, have to share a little pain (2 lost Holidays days and an agreement to forward holiday pay claims) whilst SH must also take a 5% productivity increase. Or we don't accept it and wait and see what BA has on the horizon for BMI. Personally I would rather be in the driving seat and have a hand in the future by negotiating agreements to prevent the latter scenario. BASSA buried its head in the sand and now all future routes and recruiting go to Mixed Fleet.
BA Shorthaul has always been in the firing line, long before WW came on the scene. BA has predominately been a Long Haul carrier and SH the feeder. If that feeding could be done on a lower cost base then BA/IAG would do it. Why would BA Express be interested in 'taking action' with BA Mainline if they former were guaranteed future work and expansion? The panacea is that we would all pull IA together and the company would be forced to back down. Well in my 26 years in flying it hasn't happened and I don't see it happening in the future either.
Changes in the paypoints for future joiners was an inevitability. The current PP24 schedule is unsupportable for a new joiner at 21/22 who hits PP24 at 45/46 and sits there for 19/20 years it was devised for retiring at 55 giving the 20 year old Hamble cadet 11 years at the top. The demographic 'bulge' would be massively costly. We all knew it was coming we just wanted to prevent it being included in a totally new contract with an alternate basic pay, the so called 'B' scale. The pay scales remain the same it will just take longer to achieve them. Whilst that is a slowing of pay progression it is, IMHO, unavoidable and better than starting on a lower wage, a.la Cathay, Quantas, Emirates etc. The 'new joiners' will be on the same basic contract with no changes to the pensionable pay. I'm sure you will dress it up as each year you get less of a progression than PP24, true, you will but if you don't agree to it then go look somewhere else. In the past BA pilots have given up lots to achieve fair integration for those Junior or those future joiners. The same is happening this time.
There is no BA Express, and as far as we are concerned there will be no BA express. You can only fight what exists and not future scenarios. If you want to see an example of this look at the Openskies dispute where there was no legal grounds to fight on what could/might/perhaps will be.
There is no dispute at the moment, there is no 'fight' at the moment, there is nothing to go on strike about at the moment nor in the future either. It is quite simply that we either accept that Short Haul out of LHR under the BA Brand is not profitable and that we ALL, LH and SH, have to share a little pain (2 lost Holidays days and an agreement to forward holiday pay claims) whilst SH must also take a 5% productivity increase. Or we don't accept it and wait and see what BA has on the horizon for BMI. Personally I would rather be in the driving seat and have a hand in the future by negotiating agreements to prevent the latter scenario. BASSA buried its head in the sand and now all future routes and recruiting go to Mixed Fleet.
BA Shorthaul has always been in the firing line, long before WW came on the scene. BA has predominately been a Long Haul carrier and SH the feeder. If that feeding could be done on a lower cost base then BA/IAG would do it. Why would BA Express be interested in 'taking action' with BA Mainline if they former were guaranteed future work and expansion? The panacea is that we would all pull IA together and the company would be forced to back down. Well in my 26 years in flying it hasn't happened and I don't see it happening in the future either.
Changes in the paypoints for future joiners was an inevitability. The current PP24 schedule is unsupportable for a new joiner at 21/22 who hits PP24 at 45/46 and sits there for 19/20 years it was devised for retiring at 55 giving the 20 year old Hamble cadet 11 years at the top. The demographic 'bulge' would be massively costly. We all knew it was coming we just wanted to prevent it being included in a totally new contract with an alternate basic pay, the so called 'B' scale. The pay scales remain the same it will just take longer to achieve them. Whilst that is a slowing of pay progression it is, IMHO, unavoidable and better than starting on a lower wage, a.la Cathay, Quantas, Emirates etc. The 'new joiners' will be on the same basic contract with no changes to the pensionable pay. I'm sure you will dress it up as each year you get less of a progression than PP24, true, you will but if you don't agree to it then go look somewhere else. In the past BA pilots have given up lots to achieve fair integration for those Junior or those future joiners. The same is happening this time.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Cloud Cookoo Land
Posts: 1,270
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Without denying that there is a lot of relevance in what is being said here, I will try to redirect conversation back towards those currently residing in the hold pool or awaiting assessment dates. I am sure the information being supplied is of great interest, however many will be asking 'what now?' The last 4 to 5 months hasnt instilled a great deal of confidence to potential DEPs. It appears now that the very best that people can hope for is a 'B' scale salary structure. That's at very best. The merger with bmi, the rise in passenger taxation, the desperate state of the economy and discussions with regards the creation of a company external to mainline leaves more questions for DEP hopefuls. My interpretation is that recent proposals have been made in order to assist in the management of the integration of bmi pilots. This of course is for short term, however the new proposals have many long term consequences. The question with regards to seniority, which may take quite some time to answer, should also be considered. I only mention this in order to incite some opinion from holdpoolers etc. Those hoping to join BA (mainline!!) in 2012. Where does this leave you now? Interested to know your thoughts
Last edited by Callsign Kilo; 6th Jan 2012 at 15:56.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: uk
Posts: 123
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My thoughts? Well I have a course in march and I have resigned from my current job. I suppose I am committed now but don't know to what. A 300 place drop on day one, a change in pay scales? Now with the weekend coming there is unlikely to be any info so i guess I will just sit and wait. Standby aswell so I can't even have a drink.
Having said all that I know I am not alone in this predicament so fingers crossed for all.
If we don't get paid as much, do we still have to wear the hat?
Having said all that I know I am not alone in this predicament so fingers crossed for all.
If we don't get paid as much, do we still have to wear the hat?
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: london
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hear hear Studi
Im with you. I must say though this is more of a European attitude, the French are great for this, SNPL (France) wouldn't even have a discussion, look at the terms of EJ in France compared to the UK, different gear. No, simple.
Problem is that BALPA and the UK community have shied away from a real fight for years, they are self interested whether they admit it or not, some even do, fair enough, the problem is that the UK management have absolutely zero respect for the pilots because of this.
You are right to mention flex, I can tell you for a fact that the Chairman of big BALPA (an EJ capt) is quite happy for the new guys to get screwed, he has told me this himself.
Of course its about fighting the long fight, and I've seen precious little of this, thats why BALPA membership is dwindling in the UK (read the Xmas email? Please don't leave. --- Its not the money its the rotten culture) and I for one will not be joining, that is a promise. I flew a few years ago with a very nice ex BA capt who said that he and others wrote to BALPA around 15 yrs ago pleading with them to try and stop the influx into the industry, to limit the supply, he says they were rebuffed, it should be so obvious and yet they just don't get it, its about protecting one group, simple.
If BA pilots voted NO, then it really could be the start of a new era, of course it would be tough, probably very tough. Personally I would vote no, you may not believe me but I have done this in similar circumstances in the past.
Im with you. I must say though this is more of a European attitude, the French are great for this, SNPL (France) wouldn't even have a discussion, look at the terms of EJ in France compared to the UK, different gear. No, simple.
Problem is that BALPA and the UK community have shied away from a real fight for years, they are self interested whether they admit it or not, some even do, fair enough, the problem is that the UK management have absolutely zero respect for the pilots because of this.
You are right to mention flex, I can tell you for a fact that the Chairman of big BALPA (an EJ capt) is quite happy for the new guys to get screwed, he has told me this himself.
Of course its about fighting the long fight, and I've seen precious little of this, thats why BALPA membership is dwindling in the UK (read the Xmas email? Please don't leave. --- Its not the money its the rotten culture) and I for one will not be joining, that is a promise. I flew a few years ago with a very nice ex BA capt who said that he and others wrote to BALPA around 15 yrs ago pleading with them to try and stop the influx into the industry, to limit the supply, he says they were rebuffed, it should be so obvious and yet they just don't get it, its about protecting one group, simple.
If BA pilots voted NO, then it really could be the start of a new era, of course it would be tough, probably very tough. Personally I would vote no, you may not believe me but I have done this in similar circumstances in the past.
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: london
Posts: 14
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just one more thing, can we stop going on about a 20yr old joining, there are many guys older than this, some much older.
BA are supposed to be able to employ high calibre pilots from a diverse background, not just young guys.
Ive often thought theres a case for age discrimination in seniority, could be fun to follow this up....
BA are supposed to be able to employ high calibre pilots from a diverse background, not just young guys.
Ive often thought theres a case for age discrimination in seniority, could be fun to follow this up....
