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British Airways DEP Selection - THE lowdown Part 1

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British Airways DEP Selection - THE lowdown Part 1

Old 5th Jan 2012, 19:53
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I agree with you and yes your correct I have not been part of any industrial action, I have been part of a company that did just this to it's pilot. The outcome is far worse than you think. This is not a small bump on the road, this is BA express on sligtly better t&c's. They will just grow from within. As you correctly stated the t&c's will diminish then you will have BA Express.

Again i understand your logic and agree it will happen. Sorry to see a good job start it's way down the slippery slope....

On a side note i wonder did MOL share some tips with Willie when they met over the APD tax.....smells of it!!!
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 21:46
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Allow
I'll give you my vote.
What's it to be, an increased number of years to the top paypoint or a contract with a company other than BA on significantly reduced Ts and Cs. The vote won't affect me much either way.
There are no other options it's either one or the other negotiations are over.
You choose.

I'll put the X in whichever box you want me to.
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 21:47
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The new pay scales are non-negotiable


If you are part of a recognised trade union I think you will find they are negotiable under UK employment law.



Sorry - thats just plain incorrect. If they were changing the payscales of existing employees, then, yes there would be some legal implications.
They are proposing to change the payscales of future employees, who have a choice to sign, or not sign the contract. No legal issues at all.

Someone said earlier thin end, or thick end of the wedge, those are the 2 choices. people need to get real about this.
Ultimately BA need to be profitable.
To put this into context, we are arguing about 10's of millions in savings per annum. The new EU carbon tax will cost BA about 50 odd million PA, the government take over 3 BILLION in air passenger duty out of the industry.
You want to bang some heads, then choose the right people to shout at.
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 21:58
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The introduction of a 34 point scale is hugely disappointing to both current BA pilots and future BA pilots. Please understand this is a take it or leave it offer from BA. We can accept the 'deal' which includes other unsavoury items or reject the deal and keep the current T&C's. If we reject the deal there will be no further offers of employment into BA, no 24 point scale or 34 point scale.

Do not get confused or bogged down in the detail and reasoning for BA wanting to make changes. They have the pilots over a barrel and are making a grab for our T&C's. The terms for compliance have been set out and the consequences for not complying are clearer. This is a small quote from our DFO from a long letter setting out the terms...."While this scenario would avoid accepting the change proposals, it would come at a significant cost in terms of denying British Airways pilots the confidence of owning their own growth within a career structure they recognize and benefit from". These are very carefully chosen words.

As for planning your career moves, I would like to think that BA will always have industry leading terms and conditions and will be 'the place to be'. I understand that the more time one has in other airlines or industries and the older one is the decision to move is based on finer details. Having said that, BA's T&C are as good and as leading as they will EVER be. There is only one direction that the T&Cs can go and that is down to meet those of other airlines. I believe in the long run the differences between the major players will be very small as airlines seek the greatest productivity for the least possible pay. The important questions will boil down to lifestyle, loss of licence, staff travel, time to command etc all very personal to individual requirements.

Back to the pay points, the new scales retain the old pensionable pay rates so you do not lose out there. Also don't look too far into the future, I sit around pp5 and consider if I see anything beyond pp10-15 as a bonus! The pressure on this industry is huge, T&C's are changing quicker than ever and BA want change. They have set out the terms and given us until the end of the month to think about it. If you aspire to work for BA then hope that we accept the deal, otherwise expect IB Express or Openskies pay scales at a new Heathrow based IAG owned airline.

Lastly we are VERY concerned about the new pay scales, it has always been the line in the sand for many. Morally because we don't wish to see colleagues on a lesser scale, but we also understand the pressure it will put on current scales. By bringing this to the table/ shopping list now BA have us by the balls. In the long term do you think the new scale will rise to meet the old scale? Or will the old scale fall in line with the new scale, creating further downward pressure on the entire industries pay?

How would you vote in this Hobson's choice?
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 22:01
  #3285 (permalink)  
 
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The new EU carbon tax will cost BA about 50 odd million PA, the government take over 3 BILLION in air passenger duty out of the industry.
You want to bang some heads, then choose the right people to shout at.
How very true
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 22:03
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The negotiations are over. BA pilots are being asked to vote on the options in front of them. It's either crap now, or very crap in the near future.

Why will there not be a better offer on the table? Because BA have figured out what saving to mainline make it worthwhile not riding out a strike (as they have successfully done already with the cabin crew). We say no, BMI becomes BA express, regardless of strike threats or 'staying together'. IAG have deeper pockets than pilots and will win. Those in the hold pool need not worry about 34 pay points as there will be 1 (around what easy/Ryan pay, there will still be no shortage of takers). Enjoy 900 hours and airport hotels.

Granted a new pay scale is not nice. I don't like it. I expect it is there because the BACC have thought that shorthaul working 5% harder, losing 2 days leave, giving up holiday pay on top of the 5% pay cut and productivity increases of a couple of years ago was about the most BA pilots could stomach. Senior pilots looking at retirement in a few years may well have voted no to integration if they were expected to take a pay cut as well. This could have ruined it for everyone.

No doubt some 34 pay pointers will be resentful and I doubt 24 pay points will survive the length of my career. However, if I were in the hold pool I'd be trying to encourage BA pilots to vote yes, not picking fights over one element of the wholely crap deal, so that I have a career airline to join....
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 23:36
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Some very good posts from BA pilots!
I see clearer now what you mean. I just taught you could fight it. Interesting that you all know/believe you will never keep your pp24. What I don't understand is why your giving up so easily. I genuinely and wrongly taught the pilots/union had power in BA. What's stopping them from taking more from you? They need money and now you are the easiest target and one of the biggest expenses! If you don't stand up to the bully he will destroy you.

At the end of the day I now agree with what your saying, I sympathise with you also!! Very disappointing day for all BA employees present and future, what a silent attack on your career! Although not good for us a very impressive performance by IAG in business terms.
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Old 5th Jan 2012, 23:40
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Studi - I will PM you. This is off topic here. I will simply say that your debt has gone through the roof and you have insufficient cashflow to cover you new aircraft spend. See here:

Lufthansa Annual Report 2010 - Key Figures Comparison

Scope only protects BA group; IAG is above and separate from BA group, therefore could take on bmi and run BA Express independently of the scope restrictions presently in place. Checkmate.
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Old 6th Jan 2012, 08:07
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I think you will find it will be the new joiners subsidising your salaries.
And no one, but no one, will force them to join. If the package no longer attracts then BA may have to revisit it. Willing to bet on whether or not it'll still get applications?

This notion that somehow we should all throw it all into one big pot, amortise the amount so we all get the same just doesn't happen anywhere and it never will. The fact remains that BMI pilots will join with their terms intact under the auspices of TUPE. For those in the hold pool, yes, there may likely be a decision to be made as to whether or not BA suits you under the new terms but, and I don't wish to sound patrician, some of you on here are banging on about BA as if it's your birthright and then, when the rules change (this is aviation - have they not changed for nigh on every company?) you expect the extant employees to bend to your will so you get some utopian sense of fairness.

There are guys before me on APS, guys behind me on BARP, guys with "early" commands and guys who are waiting and waiting. There's a thousand variations in BA already, this is another one.

The fact remains that for a person joining BA as a career (and, surely, it's always been regarded as a career airline) there's still ample opportunity to reach a salary which when stacked up against many of the flying jobs out there still pays handsomely. Rack in everything else we still get as BA flight crew and, to be frank, I'd be hard pushed to identify a flying job out there that offers better and, indeed, if there are, those can all be applied for too surely?

Sorry if that's not a truth that's wished to be heard on here but the notion that we should all be agitating for a marked diminution in our terms so that the collective can feel justice is served is absurd. Everyone has a life that is built at or around their means. As has been pointed out earlier on here we've taken a fair few financial licks to keep the company afloat in the last few years. This is another one - we know that BA are extracting an opportunity cost to integrate BMI. We've to decide if that cost is worth it and, frankly, if part of that comes with a 34 year pay scale for a career that can now span 40+ years then, yes, I'm prepared to go with that and I'll take my good fortune for being on an old scheme for once.

You might consider it pulling up the drawbridge behind me. I can almost understand that. But to have any expectation that I or many of my colleagues would do differently is to be naive in the extreme.

For what it's worth though I did vote to take action on the introduction of BARP for new joiners. Consider that hypocritical if you will but times, the airline and my circumstances individually mandate a different approach.

I still don't think BA offers a poor deal even under the auspices of the proposed scheme. Indeed your first year will still be what you were expecting it to be financially and if your financially aiming for some sort of projected income stability in year X based on 24 pay points then I'd wager you'd likely have been disappointed anyway with the number of convulsions we seem doomed to go through in this industry.

Finally, and as somewhat of an agent provocateur, why would those of you who think of us as selfish, self-interested and heartless souls want to join our ranks?

Fire away.

PS Fate hunter et al. I agree. I'd like to think a gentlemanly thing to do would be to honour the existing scales in circumstances like yours once you've made such a profound life changing decision on the basis of such information. For what it's worth, were there any caveats in your offer from BA? Not trying to be a weasel but just wondered.

Last edited by MrBunker; 6th Jan 2012 at 08:23.
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Old 6th Jan 2012, 08:40
  #3290 (permalink)  
 
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The Scope clause only protects BA pilots from being undermined by BA owned / operated aircraft.

It is IAG buying BMI, so Scope doesn't apply.

BA pilots can't strike over this. It is a vote to accept the terms or not.

If not then BA will continue as it is . But will be competing directly with a loco at it's home base. This new company will be very poorly paid, and very productive - so much cheaper. Where will all new routes and growth go??????????

Sure, BA pilots won't disappear overnight. I have 10 years max left, maybe I should be totally selfish and just hang on to my pay and conditions as long as possible, a la Bassa.
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Old 6th Jan 2012, 08:50
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Why would BA Express pilots not be able to strike for BA A scales?
Secondary picketing or striking is illegal in the UK.

Why does the scope clause not apply to a BA Express under IAG? Does the scope clause not protect the BA brand?
BA would be a seperate company to BA Express, so see above

Where would BA pilots in future come from to replace retirements? Would they just shrink longhaul in the long run? Or let BA Express fly the longhaul?
It won't happen overnight obviously. But new a/c could be introduced, at the expense of retiring pilots and older a/c like the 744

BMI already has a long haul element, so if it became BA express the transition wouldn't be hugely difficult.

Do I detect some Germanic pride? Well good luck to you but in the uk the locos are bigger than BA anyway!
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Old 6th Jan 2012, 08:50
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The Scope clause only protects BA pilots from being undermined by BA owned / operated aircraft
which only illustrates that the whole scope clause is rather shaky, since what "BA owned" means post IAG is unclear

Whatever, IB pilots agreed a new scope agreement that included the IAG implications. IAG tore that up shortly thereafter...

The BA scope agreement is being quoted as why BALPA are being asked to try and secure the work. That is while BA / IAG / BALPA are trying to reach an amiciable solution. When the gloves come off, I'm not sure anyone (including BALPA) will regard our scope clause as worth much legally.
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Old 6th Jan 2012, 08:52
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Originally Posted by studi
FH,

agree, the financial discussion doesn't belong in this thread. So sent you also a PM.

Now back to the topic.

Why does the scope clause not apply to a BA Express under IAG? Does the scope clause not protect the BA brand? BA Express would sure be regarded a BA brand. At least that is how it works in our scope clause.

It still fail to understand following issues: Where would BA pilots in future come from to replace retirements? Would they just shrink longhaul in the long run? Or let BA Express fly the longhaul? Why would BA Express pilots not be able to strike for BA A scales?

MrBunker, you might turn and twist it as you want, at the end, you harm yourself by letting the unity more down in your workgroup. But I guess the sense of fairness and sticking together is something which has been lost in the anglosachsen type of capitalism. Goes together with the realsisation that the UK and the US wanna continue with the financial party at all cost in the long run. But again, that is another discussion.
Take it how you will. I'm not turning or twisting. Simply telling you how I (and on our private forum, many others) view this. You seem to labour under the illusion that if we all say no that BA/IAG will bend to our collective will and instate all new joiners on our current terms and conditions.

You've been told repeatedly that this isn't the choice on the table.

If we say no to this, BA have no interest in negotiating, BMI will come under the IAG umbrella (not BA's) and will likely be branded and run as BA but with a wholly separate AOC. To the best of my knowledge, this is not something we can legally strike over in this country. It's just a holding company, headquartered in Spain, buying another company to add to the portfolio.

Rest assured, all new joiners from the hold pool and the FPP will join this new company that looks like BA, flies like BA, but isn't BA. I'm willing to wager that the conditions offered by this company will be far, far worse than the 34 pay points currently on offer. I'm also willing to wager that, aside from anyone with a firm signed contract in their hand, that those in the hold pool will be told that thanks, BA are no longer recruiting and that you're very generously being transferred to the NewBA hold pool. Oh and here's the terms.......

You seem to miss the fundamental basis to this issue. None of us would have this in an ideal world. But, and here's the rub, the world isn't ideal. IAG can do this because, right now, the law supports them. That's why there's no negotiation. As for your question re retirement replacements, we wouldn't need them with a separate BA branded airline. As sufficient legacy BA pilots retired, another aircraft and another route would transfer to NewBA. Legally there is not one single thing we can do about this. Not one. This may be different in Germany, I don't profess to know the law regarding such machinations in your country.

This isn't about a loss of sense of fairness and sticking together. Your fundamental error in your argument here is to assume that by saying no, we will draw BA/IAG back to the table with an offer to retain the status quo. I've been in BA long enough to know that doesn't happen, even less so with the way we're now incorporated with the IAG and it's OpCos structure.

You can dress it up as a lack of fairness and solidarity if you wish. I can assure you it's a lot more complex than some antiquated trades-unionist battle cry. I wish it were different but as others have said on here we are being given one choice and one choice alone.

Do we integrate BMI on the terms presented by IAG or do we not? There is no middle ground and there is no scope for negotiation, industrial action.

IAG have read the legal landscape well and structured their entire new organisation to take advantage of the same. There's a reason we didn't tread the AF/KLM path when we merged with IB. This is why - it allows an unprecedented amount of industrial freedom for the employer. Don't have to like it (I surely don't) but it is what it is and banging the drum about solidarity won't change a single thing. Call that twist and spin if you will but you're not living the harsh realities of that structure.

PS Calling the "new" airline BA express as many seem wont to do is leading to an assumption that it would be some sort of LoCo flying short haul. It doesn't have to be. It can take delivery of every new A380, 787 and all aircraft beyond. To all intents and purposes, bar the internal costs (which would assuredly be lower) and structure, it would be BA. But without any of us current stakeholders having a say in it.
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Old 6th Jan 2012, 09:17
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What if all three IAG pilot groups (BA, IB, BMI) don't settle for less? Then Willy can move planes as he wants, at the end of the day he will not have any profit in it, just the higher cost of an additional AOC. Then you could start to integrate into BA on the actual T&C.
Or get sold off like GO and BAConnect.
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Old 6th Jan 2012, 09:21
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which only illustrates that the whole scope clause is rather shaky, since what "BA owned" means post IAG is unclear
Which is probably why BA ratified it legally during the Openskies mess whilst looking aside at the long term strategy of forming IAG as an umbrella company.

Those looking to 'blame, accuse and villify' the current piloting community need to understand the ruthless nature of the business at the moment and into the future.

The extension to the paypoints for new joiners was, i'm afraid, inevitable. BALPA and the members of the BA group are fully against the formation of a 'B' scale as far as base and pensionable pay goes. The increase in the pay point increment time scales is equivalent to fiscal drag and thus, over the long period, will result in a reduced income over the entire employment period.

As has been posted very eruditely by Mr Benoulli, we in the company are very proactive in protecting T's & C's for the entire pilot community but there are some things that have to be given in negotiation and the spectre of a 'BA Express' at LHR is far worse than having to give up PP24 to PP34 for which we will be taking a cut in other areas (SH and LH) and loosing 2 days holiday and foregoing future Holiday pay accruals. Without wishing to be too blunt I think you would be very lucky to find ANY private company where current employees would fight so hard to protect the income of future employees who have the option to join or not.

As to those who complain that they want what they were promised, well welcome to the real world guys. I wasn't expecting the massive productivity increases, shortened turn around times, reduced rest, reduced report times and the 7% pay cut that the last few years has bought. It said nothing in my contract that I would be earning less in 2010 that I was in 2007 whilst working far harder. It didn't have anything in my contract about being shafted by HMRC by loosing my Tax Free Allowance. It said nothing about my pension contributions being radically increased to get the same payment as the pension schemes were 'raped' by an underhand, tax grabbing, chancellor. Life isn't fair but we can make it as even as possible for ourselves. BA WILL NOT WAIVE PP34.

BA can forecast these savings way into the future. What I am interested in is what are the BMI guys giving for all these future securities? Rest assured that it will not only be the piloting community giving in this lot. There are alot of other areas of the operations that can be (and will be) trimmed. It's useless to look at ME,ME,ME and perhaps think instead at how the extra slots/aircraft could lead to expansion at Heathrow whilst the weak Government gets it head around expansion and tha abolition of APD. We have to survive to provide future securities and that, at the moment, will be no mean feat.
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Old 6th Jan 2012, 09:22
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Originally Posted by studi
Guys, I see your point.

Still, one open item is not clearly understood on my side.

What would BA Express pilots prevent from fighting for higher wages, so to actually make the moving of planes useless for IAG?

BMI can only be a vehicle for IAG if BMI pilots play along.

What if all three IAG pilot groups (BA, IB, BMI) don't settle for less? Then Willy can move planes as he wants, at the end of the day he will not have any profit in it, just the higher cost of an additional AOC. Then you could start to integrate into mainline on the actual T&C.

That is how we did it many times already, and we would never put the new joiners in mainline onto a worse deal. The benchmark and unity had and was defended all the time.
Theoretically yes. However if IAG are careful to only target one group at a time then it's difficult for us to go on strike in support of them as, again, the law tends to emasculate the employee and collective representation.

The other truth which probably needs acknowledging is that there's way way too many people out there willing to fly for a contract far inferior to that on offer from BA. Willy will almost certainly never be short of volunteers to work for his airlines. Tends to weaken the strength of the collective somewhat.

I tend to feel that the rest of my career will be somewhat conducted from a rearguard fire-fighting perspective with regard to my terms. It's not terribly nice but, barring a sea change in global employment law (and it'd have to be pretty global) it's not going to change any time soon.
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Old 6th Jan 2012, 09:30
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Originally Posted by studi
BBB,

do you seriously think anyone else will buy a BMI full of militant pilots? Do you seriously think Willy will sell a BMI which has taken over some longhaul routes? He needs the vehicle as much to put pressure on his other two airlines.

At the end, I see a way to play it, but it would take a few years, and a NO to what is on offer.

But I guess at the end of the day, BALPA has not that kind of strategic capability, as has been seen many times with EJ unfortunately.
56 slot pairs at LHR (I think) says he will buy an airline full of ravening Mongol hordes to protect and enhance his strategic advantage at LHR.

I think you think that we factor more highly in his thinking than we do.

For me NO says a lookalike BA is born, IAG inherit 50+ slot pairs that we in "old" BA never see (plus or minus any regulatory give away to keep Branson happy) and Willy couldn't give a tinker's cuss what level of militancy or not he gets from his pilots. The point here is IAG can at any time, and at will, transfer slots and aircraft between any of the OpCos. We can say NO, and he can, with full weight of the law behind him, tell us to go whistle.

This isn't a lack of strategic thinking on the part of BALPA. If anything, it's their commendable strategy (within BA at least) that's even got us a seat at this table and some small part to play in our own destiny. Something that isn't afforded to any other staff group.

PS, your comment about BMI HAVING to hire on existing terms and conditions assumes that BMI, in essence, still exists and even then it doesn't HAVE to do anything. Any airline can choose to offer a less advantageous contract at any time to new joiners. It's not something we can strike over and it's happened throughout the years. BMI could do exactly as BA are doing and protect the terms of the existing staff and offer a new contract from date X. Happens all the time in all industries. You still seem to think that saying NO will bring IAG back to the table cap in hand. I happen to differ dramatically and for the reasons I've outlined previously - the company is cleverly structured so that they hold nearly all the legal cards. There's not a lot we can go nuclear about with IAG.
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Old 6th Jan 2012, 09:39
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Hi Studi,

The advantage would be that, in essence, even though he might start with two expensive AOCs, one only has around 300 pilots and one has 3000. He brands the smaller airline (let's call it BMI) as BA. All new aircraft, all new pilots, all new routes and any vacancies caused by retirement in "old" BA go to the BMI/BA new airline. All new recruitment on same will be on whichever contract IAG elect to offer (I think we can agree it would be markedly inferior to that enjoyed by either BA or BMI currently). "Old" BA will wither on the vine and die down to a point where we would be the 300 pilot airline and then I'd expect to just be put to sleep in an industrial sense.

Willy doesn't hold all the cards but he's got a serious advantage in the main and I think you're labouring under the misunderstanding that an airline can't offer a new contract to new joiners. Again, this may be a German law but it certainly doesn't pertain to UK employment. What one can't do is make someone redundant whilst recruiting for the same position on a different salary etc. But this wouldn't be that. We'd just be left to die of inaction. It's an admirably clever setup they've got.

There was nothing to stop Willy doing this in the last ten years other than the fact that IAG hadn't been set up and the manner of our incorporation was different. Also bear in mind that this is an opportunity being taken by the management to extract a pound of flesh - it's presented itself, he knows how valuable integration is to us, so he's attached a cost to it.

By the way, he doesn't need our approval. It's been extended to us as a courtesy to the regard in which our business relationship with our management is held and, I suspect, by how much the existing BA management want the BMI work/slots to be in house too for their own protection. You may think BALPA toothless but this offer of a choice is a direct result of that relationship.

I sense we're drifting a long long way off thread here so I suspect I'd best leave it now.
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Old 6th Jan 2012, 09:51
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Quick final point.

Yes we could strike re the new joiners pay. The problem is, we don't have an industrial lever with that so we really, truly can't win that fight. Willy will do what he did with our cabin crew.

1) Let us strike until we can't afford to be out on strike anymore
2) Set up new BA from the bones of BMI
3) Go ahead with his new joiner contract in the new BA
4) We don't have any new joiners in old BA so we've no-one to strike for and we can't go on strike for another OpCo.

Or he might not even bother with step 1 so we've no legal basis for a strike at all.

I think you think we have more weight to throw around here than we do. Pretty much all the cards are in IAGs hands. Not ours.
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Old 6th Jan 2012, 09:55
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What I am interested in is what are the BMI guys giving for all these future securities?
I've heard unofficially that in order to join the master seniority list, BMI pilots will be asked to join at the bottom with an IAG date of joining, with grandfather rights for commands applied. Failure to agree will mean they are potentially placed on a separate list, restricting them to shorthaul airbus and limiting their future prospects. Effectively they would become a standalone airline within, with work allocated separately, and without the benefits of bidline etc. The only requirement of TUPE is that they are not disadvantaged in any way. Through this method of of integration they would be retaining exactly what they had previously and no more. Therefore in order to enjoy all the benefits of BA, and in a similar vein to mainline guys, they will be given a choice. This will be their potential sacrifice!
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