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Rise! Unemployed pilots in India

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Rise! Unemployed pilots in India

Old 9th Jul 2013, 02:39
  #81 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ubiquity
Posts: 363

So Raman is just "lucky" and that's it? Of course it couldn't of had anything
to do with him researching, applying and doing whatever it takes to get the job?
He got "lucky" because he TRIED. So many here do not even bother to try outside
of their ignorant and arrogant self-absorbed and pre-ordained right to a job
inside India on a pretty jet.
I will explain this once more.To find a job in Canada or Australia you would need someone to sponsor you.If not then you need an offer of employment from an organisation that has advertised for the same job that they are offering you, and hasn't found a suitable candidate in its own country.I think its the same in US.

So an "Indian" died in a plain crash in Africa? What of other nationalities
Exactly my point.Africa is unsafe.

I know of several pilots who learned a new language in taking jobs in Europe. I met with one expat FO who once offered to learn Dutch within 12 months to sit the KLM exams since the exams were in Dutch.
Its not about the effort Mr TRE.Its about the cost and the work permit.Why don't you tell them what it costs to live in Europe and pay for conversion.

I don't think Johny boy is accusing you of being a racist.

Last edited by Capt Apache; 9th Jul 2013 at 02:46.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 07:16
  #82 (permalink)  
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: negative RAIM.....
Posts: 329
It is entirely about the effort.

If you need a sponsor (as I agree in such countries you do) then have they tried? Difficult? YES! Chances of success? Minimal at best. Tried? NO! Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Many foreign airlines send their cadets to the YS, Oz or BZ for training. There have been accidents & loss of life. Ate those countries therefore off limits as well?

GA is a training ground, proving ground, school of hard knocks, character builder & character tester. OCTA in Africa or the outback in Australia is of little difference.

Give me OCTA in Africa as opposed to pilots resting in business class as FA's man the controls, rats found on board aircraft, epidemic series of fraudulent licenses & credentials as are the tried & tested ways of airlines in India & the DGCA.

Again no one had ever been great or successful at anything while allowing barriers, no matter how steep, get in their way of them realizing their dreams & aspirations. Every barrier is a chance to get better get stronger & better.

Johnny's assertion of a prejudice against Indians was most certainly directed toward a racist accusation.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 08:30
  #83 (permalink)  
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It's not about the effort.Everybody (except for a handful) is willing to put effort.Its about the costs involved.Its about ground realities and being practical.

Again no one had ever been great or successful at anything while allowing barriers, no matter how steep, get in their way of them realizing their dreams & aspirations. Every barrier is a chance to get better get stronger & better
You can put that as your status on your Facebook account and it will be a hit.But the fact is that these kids will never get a visa.Their chances are zero because their experience is zero and their bank balance is zero.Thats reality.They have better chances if they are able to raise the money for a rating on the type they are being offered a job on.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 10:24
  #84 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Moon
Posts: 271

Racist ?
You have done it again , you are not racist but an obsessed individual who came to this part of world to get a final payday with an reputation of " I am TRE , its either myway or highway " but got exactly opposite of it. I suppose other than bashing kids and degrading indian pilots you have to improve your reading skills.

So you are FAA/DGCA approved TRE and the only one who has faced problem in this part of world ? Are you aware the problems faced by your likes from other established countries.Its far far worse than what you think is going on in India.

You say you have hours to back up which i don't have and surely i am a kiddie infront of you but what you proclaim as low standards is degrading to whole community of Indian pilots, its more than offending for those who are not first generation pilots.If have traveled far more with my family who have been active flyers & in aviation since last 75 years than what you ever been for work....Yes i know how BA use to work in 70/80's...i know how Brit midlands use to operate...and AI /Emirates/Gulf air....
So don't play hours card while trying to justify your views which are your views not everyone's and have no bearing to point hand reality of particular landmass.

So as per TopTup , an inexperienced pilot can get a job anywhere everywhere he turns his arse either infront of propeller blade or behind jet exhaust and thou shall stand a chance to get a job over local experienced pilots.For once you made me laugh...seriously you are living in one dimensional world of yours.There is a system called VISA & Work to right & Immigration which dictates various levels of experience cadre's.Every country has specific rules concerning other nationalities.
Try Botswana and Namibia on Indian Passport for a change.You will findout how difficult it is to get an extension to simple tourist visa.Sponsored Visa for work is distant reality for bush flying.

I posted this to Capt.Apache.
Never mind his post, for him every part of World is same.....you show up your face at every operators office anywhere in world and you will stand a chance to find job irrespective of work & visa procedures along with local law.
If you put up your views its all whining & excuse.
And you posted this in response of my qoute.
I have made no excuses, not whined about my career as such, despite your claims and accusations. On the contrary. I, and others with "experience" by having been the shoes of a wannabe dispute the excuses and whines offered up here.
So my claim of your poor understanding of basic english remains marked.You need to improve reading and interpreting skills.It's very basic CRM training Sir TopTup. May i ask how did you passed your refresher course ?

You have zero idea how many expats have improved my skills since is started working, you will be even more surprised how many expats got trained by my dad and his dad.Majority of them are big carrier skippers flying birds like 747/777/380 but still remains humble whenever they interact with my family recounting the starting days without showing a hint of arrogance which you for some reason are always keen to highlight in your post's.

Being experienced pilot you have a mindset of an ignorant flyer.Since you have started posting in this very thread, all you have ever done is how kids are wasting money or cribbing or how all this is embedded in our system.
Only thing missing is this tag line " Children of magneta line ".
For once loose your anger against kids and be polite.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 11:03
  #85 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Bangalore
Age: 63
Posts: 8
I can not but agree with your statements. realistic assessment. I have seen both the sides. Not every money bag gets in to the cockpit. Not that only influence gets the job. Personally I know a lot many guys who are not even middle class category who on their own merit got in to the cockpit. I was amazed at many of these hard working guys' attitude and perseverance. Aberrations, injustice and favourtism do exist and that fact can not be denied.
But to say that every body gets in to cockpit by money and influence is an absurd notion. may be that you forgive that the statements are reflections of frustration. I do feel sad for those without employment after spending the money. Nobody guarantees anything about the job and it is one's decision to spend money on something one had vague ideas of glory and unrealistically visualised bags of money. These guys have to accept the reality, their limitations and get up and face the life. Airliners do not buy aircraft with the sole purpose of providing employment. That is the reality.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 11:30
  #86 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Bangalore
Age: 63
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The best and the most balanced write up i have read in this forum. Very sane, practical and with a fine attitude towards life. I am sure you will do well and be happy and contented. I will anyday like to have you with me in he cockpit. Happy Landings my friend.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 11:48
  #87 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: australia
Age: 45
Posts: 75
Let me get this straight.

An Indian pilot died in Africa, so therefore, Africa is unsafe.

One of the most ludicrous assertions I have ever read here.

Africa, in case you didnt realise is a continent, made up of many countries. Aviation would not be so safe in some countries, in others it would be.

Your comment is just pathetic.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 12:30
  #88 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Posts: 363
That's what the link was for:

IATA said that the total accident rate for all jet airliners in Africa during 2012 was 10.85 accidents per million flight hours, compared to a world average of 2.00. The European Community (EU) has even gone as far as to ban a large number of African airlines from operating within the UE due to safety concerns over alleged poor maintenance and regulatory oversigh

After analysis, the Task Force found that the main influencing factors responsible for accidents in Africa were:
• Lack of effective regulatory oversight
• Lack of implementation of flight Data Analysis
• Lack of Safety Management System implementation
“But if we look at the entire African industry, safety remains a challenge with an overall accident rate many times the global average…World class safety is possible in Africa and that we support their commitment to achieving it by 2015.”
So off to Africa.....in 2015

Last edited by Capt Apache; 9th Jul 2013 at 12:31.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 12:42
  #89 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: australia
Age: 45
Posts: 75
So you were going to fly a jet in Africa??

Look for those countries with strong GA communities and strong safety records, you'll find many young Australians have gone over there to fly.

Actually don't bother, it's easier to look for others to blame and make excuses.

Last edited by sarge75; 9th Jul 2013 at 12:42.
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 12:59
  #90 (permalink)  
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Posts: 363
If that is the condition of sked ops that fly hundreds of pax, one can only imagine how wonderful GA must be.

Good for the Aussies then
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 13:06
  #91 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: australia
Age: 45
Posts: 75
India Voice - Second Indian student pilot killed in Australia in a month

So Indian pilots die in Australia, you complain you cant work there due to visas.

An Indian pilot dies in Africa, you rule out the continent.

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Old 9th Jul 2013, 13:48
  #92 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2012
Location: In a cloud...
Posts: 69
Russia is looking for indian pilots...
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 13:51
  #93 (permalink)  
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Indian. 40. 14,000 hours. The only one disgracing the "Indian pilot community" is noobs like you!

Sarge75, you crack me up!! haha!!
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 20:59
  #94 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ubiquity
Posts: 363
you complain you cant work there due to visas
I'm not complaining.It does not matter to me.Im merely stating a fact.

An Indian pilot dies in Africa, you rule out the continent.
I only quoted facts as stated by IATA.
For the third time now.Read it again
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Old 9th Jul 2013, 21:34
  #95 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 153
Thanks for the name calling



Your post are not " eye opening or out of box thinking " but extremely hilarious.
I for once remember you struggling hard to find a way or other to renew your DGCA CPL sometime back in 2011 or 2012.Where was your out of box thinking when your Indian CPL was on verge of lapse ? I bet you were so busy cleaning ,flying your piston's/turbo's/jets or whatever out of box you achieved since being a veteran struggler.
Thanks for the name calling....... But I like that name "Struggler..."

Yes I was a struggler & Yes, I will always be a struggler in my life, I will continue to learn & continue to improve myself, both as a Pilot & as a human being....

Yes, 2 years ago, I was looking for ideas on how to renew my old, lapsed Indian CPL & was trying to see what was happening in India at that time.

For your information, I did not wait for anyone to hold my finger & help me wlak, I went out there & did what was needed to be done.

I found out that I need to clear all my exams again, so I cleared all the DGCA exams for CPL, Air Reg, NAV, MET & Technical General; all of them in 1 shot; 1st attempt; even after being away from the Indian system for more than 15 years and just by studing on my own & without any coaching at all.

I also cleared ATPL Nav & Radio Aids written & Oral, again in 1 shot & on the 1st attempt, again without any coaching, just by self study..

So I am not just the talk, I also walk the talk.... I know my $$h!$ & I know my stuff.... But do I walk like I have extra wings or stars... NO..

I know what aviation in India is, what this industry is made up of, what the challenges are?? I know all that...

Back in the day, 15 yrs ago, things were much much harder than they are today, Jet airways was the only airline besides AI & IA.....

I could have also just sat in India, curse the govt, curse the industry & vent my frustration at anyone & everyone but rather than doing that, I went out there & made things happen for me.

I also know very well how hard it is for someone whose father is a common man & who spent all his life's savings to make his son a pilot, I know how hard it is to make it happen in this industry, I know all those challenges very well.....

So, to all of you, I have said it earlier also & say it again, the ideas, tips & suggestions that myself, people like TopTup, Capt JNS or anyone else offers, these are NOT for people born with a silver spoon, NOT for people whose Dads have deep pockets & top notch connections, & definitely NOT for people who don't want to work hard to make things happen.....

If you don't like what we say, Pls feel free to ignore our comments, If you don't like to read our posts, pls put us on the ignore list and that way you will not even see our posts..

Our ideas are for the underdogs....

Guys, We have been there, done that, so we speak from experience...

Besides being extremely Lucky, Shining above everyone else is the only way for a common man's son/daughter to make it happen in this industry as a pilot.

I have also learnt over the years, that hard work coupled with a positive & learning attitude and a little bit of good networking, goes a very long way in this profession.

We can only give ideas & hints on what to do & express only so much on these public forums and I am sure there will a few who will pick up on these hints & ideas & will implement them to change their life for better...

PS: I am not calling anyone a dog, If someone doesn't know what an UNDERDOG means, pls use google search.
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 09:58
  #96 (permalink)  
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Moon
Posts: 271

Everyone is struggler initially, be it me or you or anyone else.What people like you forget is that to get a foot in aviation as a pilot you need to burn some cash or wait before getting a leg in irrespective of any country for instructor rating/TR or else with no job surety.He ends up with same problem but with bigger debt this time, a fresh pilot can only work in a new country if he has right to work or has hours.But he can marry a local and wait till he gets a right to work but then what wait for his future with added family member and no money ?
If a pilot gets money from his family then he is sucking his daddy's money , if same pilot's family pays training money then he is wasting daddy's money.But were the heck is way to earn money to repay debts to who ever they are owed and what he usually gets in advice is " Son get a FI rating....wash my arse and paint it white." ...
Show him a way to earn money for betterment not to put debt again with no repaying options available.

I could have also just sat in India, curse the govt, curse the industry & vent my frustration at anyone & everyone but rather than doing that, I went out there & made things happen for me.
So you went out , how long did it take legally for you to have working rights ?
Green card /5 years...or how many wife's did you added in your struggling list ? Think twice about debt's and time constraints, logically you are wayward with your advice.

I found out that I need to clear all my exams again, so I cleared all the DGCA exams for CPL, Air Reg, NAV, MET & Technical General; all of them in 1 shot; 1st attempt; even after being away from the Indian system for more than 15 years and just by studing on my own & without any coaching at all.

I also cleared ATPL Nav & Radio Aids written & Oral, again in 1 shot & on the 1st attempt, again without any coaching, just by self study..
So you mean those who clear DGCA written's in their second, third.....attempts are not capable pilots of future or they have garbage brain ?
There are far far many people who cleared DGCA written's in first attempt to land CPL but still struggling to clear a single airline exam for ages , so that means they are not that good enough isn't it.
If clearing exams in first attempt makes you think you know " I am Jack of all " then i would say i passed CPL exams in second attempt but ATPL's in third and guess what i got a GA job in very first chance, am on IPT list of biggest private airline in India and on the verge of giving SIM check for another one.If all fails on me then i get myself a nice shiny TR and get into another airline coz i got hours which sadly CPL holders don't have due to which they are unemployed.
So that makes me " I know what i am talking " isn't it Pilotbaba ?

People like you who say's : " We have seen it , done it " are mere talking cowards trying to put ill advised words of adventure into mouths of poor debt ridden pilots.What you are not telling is actual level of hardship you or likes of you faced with debts on your head.Even now at this time pilots are getting job without any backdoor references....yes there may be some wait or halts but they will eventually get the job.

Your thinking & advice is absurd to its highest level with pints of humour.
Feel free to ignore my post as i believe basic logic of legal working rights & how to reduce debt are beyond your understanding.

Last edited by Johny Boy; 10th Jul 2013 at 10:15.
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 10:11
  #97 (permalink)  
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ubiquity
Posts: 363
You hints and ideas are at best vague.

You and your pals would have done just as well to post the lyrics of that Shakira song:

When you fall get up, oh oh
If you fall get up, eh eh
Tsamina mina zangalewa
Cuz this is Africa
Tsamina mina, eh eh
Waka waka, eh eh
Tsamina mina zangalewa
This time for Africa

Earlier there were suggestions to go to Europe and Australia and America.But it looks to me like the Europeans and Australians and Americans are themselves struggling.

Last edited by Capt Apache; 10th Jul 2013 at 10:29.
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 13:20
  #98 (permalink)  
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: New Delhi
Posts: 20

I found out that I need to clear all my exams again, so I cleared all the DGCA exams for CPL, Air Reg, NAV, MET & Technical General; all of them in 1 shot; 1st attempt; even after being away from the Indian system for more than 15 years and just by studing on my own & without any coaching at all.

I also cleared ATPL Nav & Radio Aids written & Oral, again in 1 shot & on the 1st attempt, again without any coaching, just by self study..

wow Pilotbaba wow..such a great achievement. isn't it ??? I have fully apprehended the type of mentality you possess. you are boasting of clearing your papers in first attempt and then you call all the people here KIDS... 1st shot 1st attempt .. you know who goes around and boast such things? at least not a man of your age. your so called kids are doing much better in that department. pathetic show...no doubt you struggled whole your life washing planes,cleaning rudders,acting safety pilot, changing countries ,changing jobs, hanging around flight clubs for NETWORKING and finally when you have reached no where,venting out your frustration at youngsters who are doing much better than you at the same age. going by your life story what I can make out is you were a confused mind, and now you are making others confused. when you struggled then why the hell are you not letting others to fight through, let them, do not bring your senseless advice in between..no one is interested.

Can you deny the effect of "DADDY'S MONEY" & Influence??
Yes I can Mr baba. flight training is an expensive business. where will i get all that money from? do you want me to rob a bank? or do you want me to beg,borrow, steal or reproduce the required finances??..tell me. At the right age of making a career in aviation as a pilot where can a person get all that money from? we live in a culture where our family support us financially, emotionally, socially whatever it is. financially everyone gets supported by his dad or family in a way or other to make his career.be it any field, education has become an expensive business/,aviation is not an exception. how the hell will one get 40 lakhs for his CPL plus the TR? so the effect of daddy's money is justified.

The 200 hr wonder kids is the term rightfuly earned by people who want to fly only the B-737 or A-320 right after CPL.
Blame the airlines. they are the one hiring directly for Airbus, Boeing, ATR, dash etc. majority of all the type rated openings are either for Airbus 320 or for the Boeing 737. we do not make choices Mr baba, we have been given opportunity directly on the jets. don't be jealous of the opportunities which are right in front of us.
what do you want from us? stop working for the recruitment drive and get off to a distant country and bestow thousand dollars on the flight schools just to get that CFI rating which will do no good. have you forgotten that CFI training will cost another thousand dollars?? where is your daddy's money effect now? please be sensible. Your suggestions are moronic and do not make sense..at least not for me.
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Old 10th Jul 2013, 18:51
  #99 (permalink)  
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: India
Posts: 47
@ JB, Capt. Apache, and Gambol. I don't think Pilotbaba is trying to boast about his achievements, but merely trying to imply that putting in the work has its results. I know that not everyone uses 'daddy's money' to buy their way in to the right seat of a jet, but not everyone wants it bad enough to get there the hard way if need be.
I've been reading this thread for a while and agree with points on oth sides of the fence. It is definitely hard to get GA work in India, but it's ot totally non-existent! Africa would be a great place to fly, but from what I gather from posts on PPRuNe it can be difficult to get the necessary work visa with an Indian passport. And for everyone out there telling Indian pilots to go work in PNG, or at Susi Air, and get some amazing flying under their belt, I know that they won't hire Indians, and prefer pilots from Oz, NZ, and South Pacific. It's just the way it is. The Indian passport can be a bit of a hinderence at times.
Oh, and going back to that 'daddy's money' nonsense. You might use the money provided to you by your family to go to flying school, or your own hard earned money. In the first case it's pretty much the same as your parents paying for you to go off to university. I don't see anyone sh!!!!ng on that now!! If you fall in the second category, good for you. However, when kids fresh out of flying school with 200 odd hours think it's their birthright to sit in the right seat of a 737 or 320, and use huge amounts of money to get there it's just wrong. I'm talking about when there is no proper screening process in place, and anyone with enough money can get in, regardless of competency. You really have no clue who's flying that aircraft.
In India it is common for the airlines to make new pilots pay for their type rating, or have the cost of the type rating deducted from the pilots monthly salary. Sometimes you pay a portion of the cost, and are bonded for a certain period, upon completion of which you can leave the airline without having to pay the remaining amount. It simply is this way because the airlines wanted to keep people from getting a free type rating, a few hours, and then leaving. The fact theat a lot of people are willing to buy their own type rating doesn't help!
And as for washing planes, refuelling them, and that sort of stuff...it's not really a job that's available to the student pilot in India. Even if you have a CPL and are just doing it to be around aircraft and hope to get some flying...not gonna happen. It works abroad, and I've done it myself!!! Whoever commented above about Indians being spoilt,and having servants makes them think they're too good for such work is wrong. I'm Indian, I've grown up with servants(not slaves) and I'm not spoiled, I've done the refuelling, washing, parking, and maintenance of aircraft. That's just life in India. I don't see expats complaining about having a cook, a maid, a driver, and watchman. But it wouldn't be fair for me to generalise.
What I'm trying to say is that India is unique in its ways. Live here long enough and you'll understand. It's frustrating at times, but that's no excuse to go at each other over here. If someone's got some good advice take it, if not don't! And another thing. I see some guys here getting offended by certain posts aimed at them. Take the time to read it again and you may find there's nothing offensive in there. After all English is spoken differently in various countries and you and you might just be misunderstanding what's being said.
I think that's pretty much it. Don't normally type this much! Good luck to all trying to land that first job, and safe flying all!

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Old 11th Jul 2013, 04:23
  #100 (permalink)  
Join Date: Dec 2012
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Posts: 21

Most of the jobless lot in India are only 10+2, ie., high school passouts. What knowledge and maturity do you expect these guys to have? Obviously, they live in their own virtual worlds where they consider that it is their destiny to have their first job as a tubeliner f/o. You can't really expect any hint of professionalism from these wannabe jocks. They hardly know anything about life. Their line of thought is very narrow.

If you have been to uni, then you have obviously experienced first year dorms, resisting temptations, coping with unimaginably large syllabi, dealing with different kinds of people, working around tight situations and so much more...All this valuable experience makes a huge difference in how you get around business in India.

Unfortunately, there is very little honest recruitment in India. Your Dad's money and influence play a key role in securing you that flying job. At the least, you are going to need some contact in the industry to see to it that your CV is picked up from the 100s that usually end up in the trash can. Getting into flying in India, without someone on the inside, is a very foolish move.

There is no laziness as such among jobless Indian pilots but rather that they don't know much. They are not really street smart. It also makes a difference to which uni you go to. These days, there are many random engg. college who will gladly take any 60%+ guy. These are low standard colleges and obviously their graduates are also not that great.

If you are a honest guy with a not-so-rich Dad, then your only hope is to study hard. Remember what Amitabh Bachhan said in KBC: "Sirf gyaan hi aapko apna haq dilata hai" Realizing this and seeing the state of the jobless lot, a senior pilot I know decided to study hard. He was a 92 percenter, and had got into one of the top NITs (earlier known as RECs) which was the 8th/9th best engg. college in India. Obviously, he learned a lot during his 4 year stay and also became accustomed to maintaining and adhering to high standards. Recruited off the campus, his first year paycheck alone allowed for a MECPL+TR. I am serious!

It also makes a difference to work after graduation. Because you also gain a lot of valuable experience in the office environment. Learning to deal with high ranking officials, understanding office politics, etc. Two years later, this person funded his CPL on his own and went on to pursue a TR. By that time, he had strategically built contacts and as expected, got himself into the 737 RHS. Obviously, the 1.5 lakhs/month paycheque was peanuts compared to his previous pay but it was worth the effort because he was doing what he wanted to and he worked hard for it and done it on his own. There is no greater satisfaction than this form of achievement.

So in short, if you are a normal guy then you've got to know someone on the inside. Or you've got be very very lucky. But at the end of the day, it's all about hard work for us normal people.

EDIT: I should also add that being more educated raises your standard in other's minds and increases the chances of your CV being picked up. Sure skill does matter but that test comes after the clearing the first impression test. 10+2 spoilt kid funded by rich dad or humble B.Tech. Aero Engg. with ratings funded by own hard earned money??? Who will you pick, if you are the CP?

Last edited by contractpilot69; 11th Jul 2013 at 04:32.
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