PAL Pilot Exodus
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Direct Entry Captain in PAL
.Meron na direct entry captains into the A320 fleet. There were some who failed in the final simulator check. For unspecified reasons (I don't like your attitude!!) or real reasons (couldn't fly the plane!!), it depends on who you talk to.
The DECS into the A320 were mostly former PAL drivers who went on strike and are just coming back but I think we've got new and strange faces coming in. You could give the PAL A320 captain position a try. PAL is a bit desperate for A320/A319 captains. We've got a few busses coming in this year. They give a full course for non-rated pilots but beware of the training contracts. Don't tell me I didn't warn you. He he.
Join Date: Jul 2006
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DEC?
Divorce Enroute Crewmember
Degraded, Expect Catastrophe
Dismiss Everyone's Concern
Dealing w/ Emotional Copilots...
How long does it take for carer progression @ PAL these days anyway?
Degraded, Expect Catastrophe
Dismiss Everyone's Concern
Dealing w/ Emotional Copilots...
How long does it take for carer progression @ PAL these days anyway?
Join Date: Apr 2005
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I'm sorry my friend but to be a member, you must meet the obvious. The mission has to stay focused on the needs of our young, the aspiring, and the career Filipino Airmen in an intolerant society.
Notwithstanding the normal prejudices associated with minorities (as blacks and hispanics have long been accepted in professional capacities in US aviation), Filipinos have a lot more to prove. We are attached to a stigma of being friendly yet underdeveloped islanders good for cheap and reliable blue collar labor as support personnel at best, incapable of commanding more than a dance pole at Clark, a spatula in Saudi or a wrench in the USAF. We have some work cut out for us and it will take time and can only be accomplished by a governing body that we can call our own.
Although we cannot grant you honorary membership, we welcome friends and you are invited to be a part of most of our functions. If you are able, please come to our first BBQ in October. I am impressed, pleased and welcome your interest in helping our mission and vision of breaking the barriers. Thank you.
As for MySpace, please feel free to email me through this website and I would be happy to give you my ID to add on your friend's list for now. We are still in the midst of establishing order and would be more capable of supporting you online as we build our own website.
Effrego Obex,
SBV
Notwithstanding the normal prejudices associated with minorities (as blacks and hispanics have long been accepted in professional capacities in US aviation), Filipinos have a lot more to prove. We are attached to a stigma of being friendly yet underdeveloped islanders good for cheap and reliable blue collar labor as support personnel at best, incapable of commanding more than a dance pole at Clark, a spatula in Saudi or a wrench in the USAF. We have some work cut out for us and it will take time and can only be accomplished by a governing body that we can call our own.
Although we cannot grant you honorary membership, we welcome friends and you are invited to be a part of most of our functions. If you are able, please come to our first BBQ in October. I am impressed, pleased and welcome your interest in helping our mission and vision of breaking the barriers. Thank you.
As for MySpace, please feel free to email me through this website and I would be happy to give you my ID to add on your friend's list for now. We are still in the midst of establishing order and would be more capable of supporting you online as we build our own website.
Effrego Obex,
SBV
I know you wish to keep things pure in that respect, but it never hurts to have additional help. OBAP has white members and Women in Aviation has male members. Just realize, in excluding groups you may be limiting your own groups power. I think you should focus on your cause and those that support it rather than the naionality of specific members. Just my bit of advice and two cents. Good Luck!!
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Memberships
Unfortunately, we cannot make it to the event. I have flown with and know several Filipinos in the airline world so perhaps things are changing. I would suggest perhaps that maybe you make a provision for people to join your group even if they are not Filipino.
I know you wish to keep things pure in that respect, but it never hurts to have additional help. OBAP has white members and Women in Aviation has male members. Just realize, in excluding groups you may be limiting your own groups power. I think you should focus on your cause and those that support it rather than the naionality of specific members. Just my bit of advice and two cents. Good Luck!!
I know you wish to keep things pure in that respect, but it never hurts to have additional help. OBAP has white members and Women in Aviation has male members. Just realize, in excluding groups you may be limiting your own groups power. I think you should focus on your cause and those that support it rather than the naionality of specific members. Just my bit of advice and two cents. Good Luck!!
Thank you for pointing that out. The disadvantages of such policies have been considered before they were put into place. Although the policy may limit the Organization's immediate reach, it will also protect it's resources, which includes friends that are not members yet instrumental to our network.
In it's infancy, we have to maintain it's integrity to ensure the platform that we build upon is pure. As we grow and stabilize, this policy may later be revisited and amended by the Board of Executives to consider a select number of individuals that have proven to be vital to our mission as honorary members.
It's great news to hear more and more Filipinos are making it to the Regionals. We are just starting to punch through the barrier.
Effrego Obex,
SBV
Last edited by Soundbarviolatr; 25th Sep 2006 at 01:45.
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with regards to the latest rumor on pay hike, a budding management known to be associating himself with top flight ops people allegedly heard JA saying "maiiyak yung mga umalis" (because of the significant increase?!), and an acquaintance of his who flew with a management (makati-based, with initials CC) reaffirmed the 'rumor'.
i apologize if this sounded like a showbiz blind item. just sharing information...
i apologize if this sounded like a showbiz blind item. just sharing information...
Join Date: Dec 1999
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Pay Hike?
If ever PAL will match even a foreign low cost carriers compensation package that will be the day I'll cry like a baby but it will never happen not in this lifetime.
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Don't Hold Your Breath!!
I like very much that PAL pilots might get a pay hike! (More like a nice pat on the back) However, even if the increase was 10% of the current salary (won't be more), how much could that be? Say a Narrow body captain was on $2000 a month.... an increase of $200. In the real world that is nothing. That is a days per diem in most companies. Let me encourage anyone who is thinking about moving to do so now. It isn't that difficult and many have done it before you. $5000 a month isn't an unreasonable salary in most companies, all you have to do is look around and email your CV to them. I haven't looked recently.. but I will post more jobs that are relevant to PAL pilots soon. Pilots that are nearing retirement... please don't give up hope... if you have a few years left there are so many companies that are willing to give you a chance. Be aggresive when it comes to this because this is your last chance to make enough money for your retirement!!! Remember that you are valuable and have a lot to offer a company. Don't accept this BS any longer.
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POEA
I heard that there was one 320 FO that was about to leave to be interviewed or processed in a foreign carrier. But at the immigration, he wasn't allowed to leave because he didn't have the "clearance" from PAL. Have any of you guys heard about this? Can you give the correct details? Is this what they meant that all of the pilots who left will be crying? By harrassing them if they go back to the Phils?
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Philippine Airlines Flying School
Philippine Airlines now is just a training ground. the magic number here is 500 hrs on type (minimum Total time 4000 for PIC position) for the other airlines to hire you. Airlines all over are getting impatient with PAL for not producing enough pilots they need.
It's not always money that's important but how your employer treats you but if you're treated like dirt with low pay, the atmosphere becomes a sweatshop and it's time to go.
Pay hike? They better give the pilots a sizeable one, if not people will definitely leave which could lead to the demise of the airline.
It's not always money that's important but how your employer treats you but if you're treated like dirt with low pay, the atmosphere becomes a sweatshop and it's time to go.
Pay hike? They better give the pilots a sizeable one, if not people will definitely leave which could lead to the demise of the airline.
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What makes pilots special?
Get Real : What makes pilots special?
By Solita Collas-Monsod
Inquirer
Editor's Note: Published on Page A10 of the March 11, 2006 issue of the Philippine Daily Inquirer
THE Migrant Workers and Overseas Filipinos Act (Republic Act 8042) empowers the government to suspend or ban the deployment of migrant workers in pursuit of the national interest or when public welfare so requires it. It is this provision that is now being used to justify the imposition of a three- to five-year ban on the overseas employment of -- guess who? -- airline pilots.
Oh, sure, the chair of the House committee on labor and employment, Rep. Roseller Barinaga, included aircraft personnel, information technology (IT) engineers and electronic technicians as part of the brain drain that he says is debilitating the country. He also mentioned in passing the shortage of doctors, teachers and health industry workers (which presumably includes nurses, whom he does not specifically mention). But the figures he cited have to do mostly with pilots.
Which immediately raises warning flags. After all, one would have thought that the exodus of doctors and nurses and teachers would have the most far-reaching and long-run negative effects on the country's human development -- and yet no one is suggesting a ban on their leaving. So what makes pilots so special?
The answer can be gleaned from various news reports. Reading them, it becomes obvious that banning pilots from working for foreign airlines will benefit business tycoon Lucio Tan and his two airlines -- mainly Philippine Airlines (PAL), which employs more than half of all commercial pilots. His minions relate it to national interest in the following manner: Because of the pilot exodus (about 60 a year), the number of PAL flights have to be reduced, depriving the Filipino people of much needed airline service, i.e., what is bad for Tan and PAL is bad for the country. A media campaign seems to be in progress to put that message across.
The reasoning is fallacious, of course. It assumes that if PAL is crippled or dies, no one else will take its place, which is nonsense. In the international arena, any number of airlines are ready, willing and able to fill the gap, as was shown when PAL gave up its European flights, with the international community not even noticing it. And there is no reason to think that given a domestic market of 12 million non-poor families, there will be no new airlines forthcoming, or that existing competing airlines (Cebu Pacific Air, for one, whose expansion PAL has repeatedly tried to block) will not be ready to take up the slack.
But isn't pilot scarcity the problem? Where will these other airlines get their pilots? Simple: They entice them back from abroad, or make it less attractive for those who are here to leave, while at the same time preparing for the long term by making sure that the pipeline of pilots-in-training is widened rather than narrowed.
On the pipeline issue, my information is that before Tan took over PAL, it ran a pilot training school that accepted students who had passed entrance examinations and proceeded to train them, and only when they joined PAL were the training costs deducted from their salaries over a period of time. Tan apparently changed that; students must now pay the entire tuition cost (around P1.9 million at present) within a year of entering the school. No wonder the pilot pipeline narrowed, but that can be reversed.
The pilot exodus can also be reversed if we understand why the pilots leave or want to leave in the first place. That is because, they claim, Tan treats them like dirt. Their story: He used his considerable influence during the Estrada administration to have their strike declared illegal, terminated them all and then rehired them under onerous conditions-entry level salaries, loss of seniority (with retirement and pension implications), no union allowed.
To add insult to injury, those salaries reportedly were not increased from then until about one and a half years ago (probably in an attempt to stem the pilot exodus), when in the guise of making them (only senior pilots) part of management, they were given "premium" pay of 15 percent, but with a caveat: "Please note that premium pay is not included in the computation of retirement pay, 13th and 14th-month pay, and leaves commutation."
Senior PAL pilots say they get between $2,500 and $3,500 monthly (not $4,000 to $6,000 as claimed by PAL). The foreign airlines offer them $9,000 to $12,000. But some pilots also say that had PAL offered them even just one-half the industry pay average, they would not leave, to avoid the painful separation from their families.
But instead of using carrots to keep their pilots, PAL uses sticks -- arbitrarily increasing the amounts the pilots must pay to reimburse the cost of their specialized training, requiring them to give six months' notice before leaving, refusing to give them back the 25 percent of their pay that was set aside as forced savings, refusing to give references, using its muscle to harass the foreign recruiters (accusing them of illegal recruitment and sic-ing the National Bureau of Investigation on them) as well.
Failing to stem the hemorrhage despite all these measures, Lucio Tan's PAL, together with other domestic airlines (including Cebu Pacific, alas) is now campaigning to ban the foreign deployment of pilots. If they succeed, not only will the pilots be at their mercy, but the danger of having a domestic airline cartel increases exponentially. National interest? My sainted foot.
By Solita Collas-Monsod
Inquirer
Editor's Note: Published on Page A10 of the March 11, 2006 issue of the Philippine Daily Inquirer
THE Migrant Workers and Overseas Filipinos Act (Republic Act 8042) empowers the government to suspend or ban the deployment of migrant workers in pursuit of the national interest or when public welfare so requires it. It is this provision that is now being used to justify the imposition of a three- to five-year ban on the overseas employment of -- guess who? -- airline pilots.
Oh, sure, the chair of the House committee on labor and employment, Rep. Roseller Barinaga, included aircraft personnel, information technology (IT) engineers and electronic technicians as part of the brain drain that he says is debilitating the country. He also mentioned in passing the shortage of doctors, teachers and health industry workers (which presumably includes nurses, whom he does not specifically mention). But the figures he cited have to do mostly with pilots.
Which immediately raises warning flags. After all, one would have thought that the exodus of doctors and nurses and teachers would have the most far-reaching and long-run negative effects on the country's human development -- and yet no one is suggesting a ban on their leaving. So what makes pilots so special?
The answer can be gleaned from various news reports. Reading them, it becomes obvious that banning pilots from working for foreign airlines will benefit business tycoon Lucio Tan and his two airlines -- mainly Philippine Airlines (PAL), which employs more than half of all commercial pilots. His minions relate it to national interest in the following manner: Because of the pilot exodus (about 60 a year), the number of PAL flights have to be reduced, depriving the Filipino people of much needed airline service, i.e., what is bad for Tan and PAL is bad for the country. A media campaign seems to be in progress to put that message across.
The reasoning is fallacious, of course. It assumes that if PAL is crippled or dies, no one else will take its place, which is nonsense. In the international arena, any number of airlines are ready, willing and able to fill the gap, as was shown when PAL gave up its European flights, with the international community not even noticing it. And there is no reason to think that given a domestic market of 12 million non-poor families, there will be no new airlines forthcoming, or that existing competing airlines (Cebu Pacific Air, for one, whose expansion PAL has repeatedly tried to block) will not be ready to take up the slack.
But isn't pilot scarcity the problem? Where will these other airlines get their pilots? Simple: They entice them back from abroad, or make it less attractive for those who are here to leave, while at the same time preparing for the long term by making sure that the pipeline of pilots-in-training is widened rather than narrowed.
On the pipeline issue, my information is that before Tan took over PAL, it ran a pilot training school that accepted students who had passed entrance examinations and proceeded to train them, and only when they joined PAL were the training costs deducted from their salaries over a period of time. Tan apparently changed that; students must now pay the entire tuition cost (around P1.9 million at present) within a year of entering the school. No wonder the pilot pipeline narrowed, but that can be reversed.
The pilot exodus can also be reversed if we understand why the pilots leave or want to leave in the first place. That is because, they claim, Tan treats them like dirt. Their story: He used his considerable influence during the Estrada administration to have their strike declared illegal, terminated them all and then rehired them under onerous conditions-entry level salaries, loss of seniority (with retirement and pension implications), no union allowed.
To add insult to injury, those salaries reportedly were not increased from then until about one and a half years ago (probably in an attempt to stem the pilot exodus), when in the guise of making them (only senior pilots) part of management, they were given "premium" pay of 15 percent, but with a caveat: "Please note that premium pay is not included in the computation of retirement pay, 13th and 14th-month pay, and leaves commutation."
Senior PAL pilots say they get between $2,500 and $3,500 monthly (not $4,000 to $6,000 as claimed by PAL). The foreign airlines offer them $9,000 to $12,000. But some pilots also say that had PAL offered them even just one-half the industry pay average, they would not leave, to avoid the painful separation from their families.
But instead of using carrots to keep their pilots, PAL uses sticks -- arbitrarily increasing the amounts the pilots must pay to reimburse the cost of their specialized training, requiring them to give six months' notice before leaving, refusing to give them back the 25 percent of their pay that was set aside as forced savings, refusing to give references, using its muscle to harass the foreign recruiters (accusing them of illegal recruitment and sic-ing the National Bureau of Investigation on them) as well.
Failing to stem the hemorrhage despite all these measures, Lucio Tan's PAL, together with other domestic airlines (including Cebu Pacific, alas) is now campaigning to ban the foreign deployment of pilots. If they succeed, not only will the pilots be at their mercy, but the danger of having a domestic airline cartel increases exponentially. National interest? My sainted foot.
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Hi D6,
PAL expect you to be proficient on your so called Basics, which includes Instrument flying.
This Guy being quoted has been there for a long time(he retired or going to retire supposedly as an A330/340 FO), but was given a chance to be a Capt to be utilized til his 65th yrs of age.
PAL is no small airline to start with, so i can say that training dept has long time ago polished its System.(some unperfect areas i'll presume, but the last time i was there i would consider it within Standard).
its either Pilots forgotten their Basics or Pilots never learned the Basics from the start.
Cheers,
C1052
PAL expect you to be proficient on your so called Basics, which includes Instrument flying.
This Guy being quoted has been there for a long time(he retired or going to retire supposedly as an A330/340 FO), but was given a chance to be a Capt to be utilized til his 65th yrs of age.
PAL is no small airline to start with, so i can say that training dept has long time ago polished its System.(some unperfect areas i'll presume, but the last time i was there i would consider it within Standard).
its either Pilots forgotten their Basics or Pilots never learned the Basics from the start.
Cheers,
C1052
I can't believe that someone can retire as just an F/O. You would think that they would have progressed to Capt by that time. But i guess to each his own. He probably just needs a refresher to polish him up.
Cheers mate
D6
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bobo means planestupid
bobo din yung anak
psychomotorman
Hi guys, sorry but got lost in translation, care to explain the last post? thanks
SF
I reckon the kid of Lagmay has a chance. He is young & nobody starts this airline job knowing his trade well. But he better work hard for it.
But the case of the father is no excuse. Simply put, this is a typical story of what is left of PAL's pilots.
The pilots who "have it" have simply left & those left behind are those simply "without it".
Of course there are still PAL pilots left behind who have the skill to be Captains (but with a dash of stupidity) but they have been qualified already. The airline will simply run out of people to upgrade.
A typical PAL story is of a guy named aka Jacky Chan who is the son of a business partner of LT himself.
JC has been terminated from the co. for incompetence (man this guy thought that the B747 he was to flying {he was an s/o} had brake pads missing in the nose gear so he recommended to the Playboy Capt that the flight be grounded!!!).
Another case was when the Captain asked for the landing checklist when he suddenly smelled the sweet aroma of airline breakfast: JC was eating breakfast on short final!!!!
Nevertheless, JC is back with PAL as an s/o & all his tainted training records were deleted from the files of the airline as if he were a new entry trainee.
A group of senior F/o's have recently failed their Captain's training in the A330.
Koyang has thought of a new way of recruiting competent pilots.
Zosa of Emirates has a son who applied to be a pilot trainee in the PAL Av-school. The kid passed all requirements but Koyang
decided that PAL will only accept Zosa's son if he goes back to PAL as a 320 Capt
.
PAL is a one of a kind airline. I bet you this doesn't happen to other airlines elsewhere in the world.
psychomotorman
Hi guys, sorry but got lost in translation, care to explain the last post? thanks
SF
I reckon the kid of Lagmay has a chance. He is young & nobody starts this airline job knowing his trade well. But he better work hard for it.
But the case of the father is no excuse. Simply put, this is a typical story of what is left of PAL's pilots.
The pilots who "have it" have simply left & those left behind are those simply "without it".
Of course there are still PAL pilots left behind who have the skill to be Captains (but with a dash of stupidity) but they have been qualified already. The airline will simply run out of people to upgrade.
A typical PAL story is of a guy named aka Jacky Chan who is the son of a business partner of LT himself.
JC has been terminated from the co. for incompetence (man this guy thought that the B747 he was to flying {he was an s/o} had brake pads missing in the nose gear so he recommended to the Playboy Capt that the flight be grounded!!!).
Another case was when the Captain asked for the landing checklist when he suddenly smelled the sweet aroma of airline breakfast: JC was eating breakfast on short final!!!!
Nevertheless, JC is back with PAL as an s/o & all his tainted training records were deleted from the files of the airline as if he were a new entry trainee.
A group of senior F/o's have recently failed their Captain's training in the A330.
Koyang has thought of a new way of recruiting competent pilots.
Zosa of Emirates has a son who applied to be a pilot trainee in the PAL Av-school. The kid passed all requirements but Koyang
decided that PAL will only accept Zosa's son if he goes back to PAL as a 320 Capt .PAL is a one of a kind airline. I bet you this doesn't happen to other airlines elsewhere in the world.
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You can't win against PAL
[quote=Cessna1052;2895847]This are simple tips to plan your Proper exit from your present employer:
"7. My advise, don't runaway from your Contract. Its onerous, but its still binding and with LT at the other end, theres no way in this lifetime that you'll ever win a case against him.(God will have his time at the end; to LT and the rest of his Gang)
8. Serve the notice period and pay the remaining contract(Cash or PDC;in the first place they indeed spent money for you;try imagining if you were on their shoe), you had enough problems sorting your way out and you definitely have no need of another while enjoying a nice layover
somewhere.
Oh, i forgot that they are charging you with the replacement pilot; i haven't thought of a loophole on this one, but definitely theres no need to settle this one."
You are a PAL slave & you cannot win against the mighty co.
Recently I heard that PAL is sending out letters to pilots who have left saying that they should have given 6 months notice instead of the 30 days stated by law.
According to the lawyer one pilot hired, it is very odd that the training contract the pilot signed stated that he should give 120 days notice if he leaves before he finishes the contract.
It is implied that 30 days notice is required then after he finishes the contract.
Now that the pilot has finished his contract & has left PAL since, PAL is saying that the co. requires 180 days notice...bakit daw humaba pa? (why did it become longer?)
So how do you settle this issue?
I told you PAL is special: specially sick.
Again from the hit song Hotel California: "you can check out anytime of the night, but you can never leave..." Now according to a televangelist here in LA, "don't you hear the devil talking there?"
"7. My advise, don't runaway from your Contract. Its onerous, but its still binding and with LT at the other end, theres no way in this lifetime that you'll ever win a case against him.(God will have his time at the end; to LT and the rest of his Gang)
8. Serve the notice period and pay the remaining contract(Cash or PDC;in the first place they indeed spent money for you;try imagining if you were on their shoe), you had enough problems sorting your way out and you definitely have no need of another while enjoying a nice layover
somewhere.
Oh, i forgot that they are charging you with the replacement pilot; i haven't thought of a loophole on this one, but definitely theres no need to settle this one."
You are a PAL slave & you cannot win against the mighty co.
Recently I heard that PAL is sending out letters to pilots who have left saying that they should have given 6 months notice instead of the 30 days stated by law.
According to the lawyer one pilot hired, it is very odd that the training contract the pilot signed stated that he should give 120 days notice if he leaves before he finishes the contract.
It is implied that 30 days notice is required then after he finishes the contract.
Now that the pilot has finished his contract & has left PAL since, PAL is saying that the co. requires 180 days notice...bakit daw humaba pa? (why did it become longer?)
So how do you settle this issue?
I told you PAL is special: specially sick.
Again from the hit song Hotel California: "you can check out anytime of the night, but you can never leave..." Now according to a televangelist here in LA, "don't you hear the devil talking there?"