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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 20th Mar 2019, 07:11
  #2121 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MLHeliwrench View Post

it still boggles the mind how that aircraft was released to fly the next fateful leg.
I think nobody at Lion Air at the time had any clue about the existence of MCAS. It seemed like "just a bad AoA vane" and the airplane response made no sense. Whoever signed it off could not have put 2 and 2 together with the information they had...
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 07:15
  #2122 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by dufc View Post
A Message from Boeing CEO Dennis Muilenburg

To airlines, passengers and the aviation community:

We know lives depend on the work we do, and our teams embrace that responsibility with a deep sense of commitment every day. Our purpose at Boeing is to bring family, friends and loved ones together with our commercial airplanes—safely. The tragic losses of Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 and Lion Air Flight 610 affect us all, uniting people and nations in shared grief for all those in mourning. Our hearts are heavy, and we continue to extend our deepest sympathies to the loved ones of the passengers and crew on board.

Safety is at the core of who we are at Boeing, and ensuring safe and reliable travel on our airplanes is an enduring value and our absolute commitment to everyone. This overarching[!!!] focus on safety spans and binds together our entire global aerospace industry and communities. We're united with our airline customers, international regulators and government authorities in our efforts to support the most recent investigation, understand the facts of what happened and help prevent future tragedies. Based on facts from the Lion Air Flight 610 accident and emerging data as it becomes available from the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 accident, we're taking actions to fully ensure the safety of the 737 MAX. We also understand and regret the challenges for our customers and the flying public caused by the fleet's grounding.

...

Our mission is to connect people and nations, protect freedom, explore our world and the vastness of space, and inspire the next generation of aerospace dreamers and doers—and we'll fulfill that mission only by upholding and living our values. That's what safety means to us. Together, we'll keep working to earn and keep the trust people have placed in Boeing.

Dennis Muilenburg
Chairman, President and CEO
The Boeing Company


I don't know about others, but this hot air statement from Boeing's CEO has the opposite effect on me. I do not trust that company a bit more after their CEO spoke like this. To the contrary. I'm expecting a reflected, intelligent, rational statement from a shop of engineering excellence and highest professional aspiration and ethics. That would - if one wants to listen to PR in the first place with an open mind - instil trust in me. Not a statement that reads like it comes from a religious cult.

Last edited by Interflug; 20th Mar 2019 at 08:02.
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 07:23
  #2123 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se...search-for-fix

BOEING faces a potential Everest of a problem with the Max.

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Old 20th Mar 2019, 07:26
  #2124 (permalink)  
 
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Interflug - I had exactly the same reaction.
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 07:50
  #2125 (permalink)  
 
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Hi tech
that is quite correct
Yanrair
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 07:57
  #2126 (permalink)  
 
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Perhaps the 3rd set of eyes in the first Lion Air incident spotted the trim wheels whirring away in the nose down direction and realised what was going on whilst in the accident aircraft the 2 crew in the mayhem didn't..
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 08:17
  #2127 (permalink)  
 
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Dear PATPLAN.
MCWS MACS MCAS
You are quite correct - my achronym was mixed up. But my message isnít, I think we all know the full name of the system to which we refer- which Iím pretty sure didnít cause the crash. It may have been a factor ok.
I stiill look forward to someone describing a technically based scenario whereby the pilots were physically unable to control these two 737 MAX. As opposed to abstruse discussions about a computer added to a very simple mechanical (clockwork) aircraft. Put another way, please describe a set of events where a computer system was able to dive the plane and there was nothing the pilots could do. When we have a coherent response to that we can move forward.
To to a recent post referring to Chuck Yeager, you donít have to go back that far. Every year pilots fly their planes out of totally unforeseen situations: BA 777 Heathrow , Sully in Hudson are just two examples. Thatís 600 passengers still alive because the pilots did know what to do- both double engine failures by the way. And conversely, pilots crash perfectly flyable planes. 737 Amsterdam. Airbus south Atlantic ....in fact most crashes on Air Crash Investigation on TV are in that category.
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 08:41
  #2128 (permalink)  
 
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That CEO statement is aimed in only one direction. "Follow the money"
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 09:11
  #2129 (permalink)  
 
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Put another way, please describe a set of events where a computer system was able to dive the plane and there was nothing the pilots could do. When we have a coherent response to that we can move forward.
Is anyone saying that there was nothing the pilots could do?
I think there are two problems being exposed by this thread and others like it;
1/ Commercial pressure has influenced the design and certification process to the extent that a sub-standard system has been rushed into production.
2/ The accepted minimum standard of pilot training within the industry has been slowly and steadily eroded over the last few decades. ( a ppt file as a ‘differences course ‘ to move from the NG to the Max? Give me a break.)
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 09:33
  #2130 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by derjodel View Post
I think nobody at Lion Air at the time had any clue about the existence of MCAS. It seemed like "just a bad AoA vane" and the airplane response made no sense. Whoever signed it off could not have put 2 and 2 together with the information they had...
From post #2141 that does not appear to be the case as the jump seat rider on the previous flight knew and apparently told the crew how to fix it having gone back into the cabin and retrieved a manual.

This make sense since there are news report said pax saw the pilot (may jump seat driver)came out to get a big book from his luggage on pax compartments at jt043
https://www.google.co.id/amp/s/www.g...ada-senin-pagi

[UPDATE]
It was batik air pilot who riding along JT043
https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se...search-for-fix
As anyone who has delivered systems with User Guides, User Manuals, Technical Support Manuals will know - these documents become 'shelfware'. It seems that even AD's fall into that category now.
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 09:45
  #2131 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Interflug View Post
I don't know about others, but this hot air statement from Boeing's CEO has the opposite effect on me. I do not trust that company a bit more after their CEO spoke like this. To the contrary. I'm expecting a reflected, intelligent, rational statement from a shop of engineering excellence and highest professional aspiration and ethics. That would - if one wants to listen to PR in the first place with an open mind - instil trust in me. Not a statement that reads like it comes from a religious cult.
Boeing's mission is the same as any other publicly listed company - to maximise profits for the shareholders and to act in their best interests. To do otherwise would probably be a dereliction of the directors legal responsibilities. It does this by designing and manufacturing equipment to the highest standards but that is not its mission, it's the means to the end. I do not mean to denigrate Boeing's equipment and staff and all their efforts which I personally admire hugely. But it's the truth.

Last edited by yellowtriumph; 20th Mar 2019 at 10:21.
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 09:54
  #2132 (permalink)  
 
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https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se...search-for-fix
I will read that with interest. More reasoned information the better. Many thanks. Yanrair

https://mol.im/a/6828697
this one is good too. An off duty jump seat pilot seemed (I say seemed because everything we are getting at the moment is from various sources) seemed to have just done what I have been saying from the start. Turn off the switches. And it was all a big non event. On the flight prior to the fatal one.

For completeness there are four ways of stopping the stabiliser moving
1 Grab it (that was the main way until about 25 years ago, but because it did result in losing the skin on your knuckles, Boeing put in a brake like the one one a Mormon cart. A simple friction brake on the periphery of the STAB wheel. Very effective though.
2 Trim in opposite direction - only works as long as you are trimming. When you stop, STAB starts moving again
3 Pull the control stick - yoke if you like - in the opposite direction. That stops the STAB. Now, this may have been changed on the MAX, and if it has we have a factor. Unless the pilots were told about this during training.
4 Turn off the switches - this works in every situation.
Cheers
Yanrair.
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 09:56
  #2133 (permalink)  
 
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Gordon R
I am getting false URL on that link???
Can you resend correct one please
Y
===========================

Post link works properly from armchairpilot94116 further up this page and delves into leaks from the Lionair accident CVR - not the previous day's report already detailed.

Rob
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 10:06
  #2134 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cows getting bigger View Post
That CEO statement is aimed in only one direction. "Follow the money"
With a market capitalisation of over 200 B US $, a temporary 10% drop from singular events like airliner crashes means quasi guaranteed short term down movement of about 20 B US $.
Now if you were an evil SOB and also had the means to trigger an airliner crash (not so easy, but impossible?), how much money could you make from exercising options on the stock market with your insider knowledge? Since it's usually always about the money in the end, should the audit not also include searching for eerily timely stock option deals? IMO it should.
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 10:08
  #2135 (permalink)  
 
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Ok I got the link to the straits times. It majors on someone looking in manuals for a solution. That is not how it works. There is never time to look in a manual in a critical situation on a plane. You are trained how to deal with it from memory, [MEMORY ITEMS] and Runaway Stab is a memory drill. Or, you read the Quick Ref Handbook which is beside the pilots at all times and is easy to get to in a matter of seconds. All pilots know this book inside out, or should. The article also refers to a third pilot fixing the problem the previous day using the simple recommended technique. If this is the case, we then know that the accident was a avoidable given the training and knowledge. It was not Unavoidable.
Yanrair.
Were there things going on here that should not have happened - yes
Are there things that can be improved - yes
Was it avoidable? Looks like it was.
Remember, there is a reason why we have pilots. And two of them. And one of those reasons, perhaps the most important one, is for when the on board systems don't behave as designed. Good example. BA 747 with four engines failed over Indonesia for over 20 minutes. Now guys, that was not in the manual. Everyone lived.
Bye for now - think this is a great forum and I respect every contribution.
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 10:09
  #2136 (permalink)  
 
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Lion airs flight the day before , they say the switches where turned off ? I believe the stick shaker was on constantly for entire flight ? Is it possible to turn off trim motors so elevator / stab is not being affected by faulty pressure instruments but stick shaker and other systems are still affected ?
How to switch pressure sensor systems ?
If you switched pressure sensor systems would it fix MCAS and other systems ?
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 10:25
  #2137 (permalink)  
 
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Lion airs flight the day before , they say the switches where turned off ? I believe the stick shaker was on constantly for entire flight ?
This raises an interesting point:
Ordinarily the switch position ought be detailed in the maintenance documents. Presumably the maintenance entry ought have mentioned the STAB TRIM CUT OUT switches with guard open in cutoff?
This is pertinent because engineering or the next crew must have reset the STAB TRIM CUT OUT switches.
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 10:52
  #2138 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Octane View Post
Perhaps the 3rd set of eyes in the first Lion Air incident spotted the trim wheels whirring away in the nose down direction and realised what was going on whilst in the accident aircraft the 2 crew in the mayhem didn't..
Or to put it another way: A flight engineer is needed to watch the trim wheels and if necessary switch off Stab Trim, as pilots do not switch off the Stab Trim even after repeated uncommanded nose down stab trim starts making it close to impossible to pull the yoke back and keep the aircraft level
is that what you meant?

Or was the third set of eyes the only one not saying: "it can't be runaway trim as that is continuous and this is repeated - so we won't do that checklist and switch off the Stab Trim"
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 11:08
  #2139 (permalink)  
 
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The FAA's directive orders airlines within three days to update flight manuals to include specific steps pilots should take to recover.

"They should disengage the autopilot and start controlling the aircraft's pitch using the control column and the "main electric trim", the FAA say. Pilots should also flip the aircraft's stabiliser trim switches to "cutout". Failing that, pilots should attempt to arrest downward pitch by physically holding the stabilizer trim wheel, the FAA adds"
FAA directive to airlines released in Nov last year about arresting trim runaways on the MAX

I think many pilots will deal with this issue alone fairly well, throw in a few other issues like speed mismatch etc or alt mismatch and all of a sudden the situation right after takeoff becomes very dire indeed and is going to require some serious focus
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Old 20th Mar 2019, 11:21
  #2140 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Octane View Post
Perhaps the 3rd set of eyes in the first Lion Air incident spotted the trim wheels whirring away in the nose down direction and realised what was going on whilst in the accident aircraft the 2 crew in the mayhem didn't..
Maybe, he did, sitting further back and with less immediate issues... however, its reported he went back into the cabin to get a 737 Manual and went back into cabin... therein maybe lies the truth of the matter.. a 3rd crew member with more time on his hands.
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