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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

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Ethiopian airliner down in Africa

Old 8th May 2019, 08:12
  #5121 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BDAttitude View Post
It's just that I don't see the costs that could have been cut by doing so.
The CNN feature you have linked seems to be very superficial. I can't see them trying to stall the aircraft or introducing a AOA fault. So where should MCAS come into action. It's a scenic flight in the simulator and the statement that there was no MCAS intervention is ambiguous to me.

However there is still negligence and the bad suprises are many.
Maybe someone has more detailed knowledge one the capabilities of the 8 MAX simulators (one of which seems to be located in Ethopia, which is at least suprising to me).
Since Ethiopian Airlines has only 4 (or 5) MAX aircraft delivered, and a total of 26 other B737 models in service, it would be rather surprising if they have one of the very few MAX simulators available worldwide. We do not know for sure (it may have been filmed elsewhere), and the CNN story is hardly proof either way. I don't think even Boeing have (or had) the ability to trigger an AOA fault, so this version seems rather irrelevant.
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Old 8th May 2019, 08:31
  #5122 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BDAttitude View Post
It's just that I don't see the costs that could have been cut by doing so.
The CNN feature you have linked seems to be very superficial. I can't see them trying to stall the aircraft or introducing a AOA fault. So where should MCAS come into action. It's a scenic flight in the simulator and the statement that there was no MCAS intervention is ambiguous to me.
Way back in the LionAir threads it was revealed that Max simulator data packs are delivered as binaries with a fixed set of malfunctions, this is another change from NG, and almost certainly is cost-cutting. Result?:

operators no longer have any ability to pick and choose nor introduce malfunctions into their training programs

See post 813 on Lion thread: Indonesian aircraft missing off Jakarta

If you cannot simulate an AOA failing high (and not all AOA failures will trigger MCAS) then you could only trigger MCAS by flying into a part of the envelope where it is designed to activate in which case the result would be that, in terms of stick feel at least, MCAS counters the additional nacelle lift and it flies like an NG would. That isn't really any help...

It may well be that the only way to accurately simulate MCAS is in the engineering sims at Boeing (or arrange a test flight in an actual Max - plenty spare at the moment - and knock a vane off before you go...).
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Old 8th May 2019, 08:44
  #5123 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GordonR_Cape View Post
Since Ethiopian Airlines has only 4 (or 5) MAX aircraft delivered, and a total of 26 other B737 models in service, it would be rather surprising if they have one of the very few MAX simulators available worldwide. We do not know for sure (it may have been filmed elsewhere), and the CNN story is hardly proof either way. I don't think even Boeing have (or had) the ability to trigger an AOA fault, so this version seems rather irrelevant.
Having worked in Africa for a number of years, I do not find it at all surprising that Ethiopian Airlines would have a MAX 8 simulator.

It is very possible that is standard practice in the company. An Aircraft division and a training division each with different managers. Both managers hold a cheque book and both get wined and dinned, I hardly see the training manager saying "Nah I do not need to go to the USA - it's the same as the NG"

Not having a trigger for a (or both) AoA fault/s in a simulator would be a very big surprise as they input a few systems.

L39 Guy - what would you class Botswana's safety record as?

Airline commercial obviously.
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Old 8th May 2019, 08:53
  #5124 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by infrequentflyer789 View Post
Way back in the LionAir threads it was revealed that Max simulator data packs are delivered as binaries with a fixed set of malfunctions, this is another change from NG, and almost certainly is cost-cutting. Result?:

operators no longer have any ability to pick and choose nor introduce malfunctions into their training programs

See post 813 on Lion thread: ...
If you cannot simulate an AOA failing high (and not all AOA failures will trigger MCAS) then you could only trigger MCAS by flying into a part of the envelope where it is designed to activate in which case the result would be that, in terms of stick feel at least, MCAS counters the additional nacelle lift and it flies like an NG would. That isn't really any help...

It may well be that the only way to accurately simulate MCAS is in the engineering sims at Boeing (or arrange a test flight in an actual Max - plenty spare at the moment - and knock a vane off before you go...).
Thank you very much for clarification and the link.
This is indeed another concerning development - and should have been vigorously fought by the Training Device Manufacturers and their customers!

So I would consider this not so much as a cost saving meassure but yet another a**h*** company culture thing trying to gain dominance over TDMs by revoking access to something one considers as Boeings intellecutal property.
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Old 8th May 2019, 08:57
  #5125 (permalink)  
 
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10 million views more than 5000 posts...and still discussing the same stuff
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Old 8th May 2019, 09:05
  #5126 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LegioX View Post
10 million views more than 5000 posts...and still discussing the same stuff
Even if it does seem repetitive, this discussion is not going to go away. More than 300 people are dead, and Boeing still won't accept responsibility...
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Old 8th May 2019, 09:06
  #5127 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Bend alot View Post

L39 Guy - what would you class Botswana's safety record as?

Airline commercial obviously.
Funny guy. First, there appears to be no jet aircraft in Botswana's airline industry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...es_of_Botswana) so that was a bad choice to make jet comparisons.

Secondly, the relative accident rate is equally as important as the absolute - accidents per million flying hours, accidents per aircraft in fleet, etc. So, go and do some homework on that and provide us with the results.
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Old 8th May 2019, 09:13
  #5128 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GordonR_Cape View Post
Even if it does seem repetitive, this discussion is not going to go away. More than 300 people are dead, and Boeing still won't accept responsibility...
So Gordon, what would make you happy? A massive mea culpa from Boeing saying something like "It's all our fault. We screwed up. We gamed the system. We were naughty."

As many pilots like myself (and I note that you are not one) and engineers have pointed out on this forum, there is no single cause of an accident, it is a chain of events. And, all of the links on that chain bear some responsibility too - the regulators overseeing the airlines and their training, the airlines and their training systems and the pilots charged with the responsibility of flying an aircraft, even with those bells and whistles going off.

And you're right, this is getting repetitive.
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Old 8th May 2019, 09:21
  #5129 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by L39 Guy View Post
Funny guy. First, there appears to be no jet aircraft in Botswana's airline industry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...es_of_Botswana) so that was a bad choice to make jet comparisons.

Secondly, the relative accident rate is equally as important as the absolute - accidents per million flying hours, accidents per aircraft in fleet, etc. So, go and do some homework on that and provide us with the results.

Thanks for your contribution to this forum.
Was not aware that jets was a requirement of being an airline - but they have had jet 4 burners and all and at the time I was there.
Do not need to do homework, I have experience it.

But thanks for standing on me, like I ironed your shirt incorrectly.

One in a million.

And thanks for your thanks, but with respect as your theory as posted is very good.

https://www.airliners.net/photo/Air-...46-100/1204892
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Old 8th May 2019, 09:23
  #5130 (permalink)  
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Thread closed until there is actual news

Abrasive posturing and in fighting has become the dominant feature of the thread. We'll wait until there is substantive news.

Rob
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