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MH17 down near Donetsk

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MH17 down near Donetsk

Old 18th Jul 2014, 02:06
  #221 (permalink)  
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CNN says US Authorities say US 'assets in the region' detected the launch based on the radar lock-on from the ground. (not just the infrared heat signature)
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 02:08
  #222 (permalink)  
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And so with disregard to the target aircraft, radar paint, flight level, speed and/or heading or the standard overflight air routes, the SAM installation operator and his/her commander/adviser, with seemingly no IFF information, fired on the unidentified jet. It demonstrates an absence of any rules of engagement, comprehension of air route networks or target risk assessment and that this was either a premeditated act or just reckless action, both of which would constitute either a barbarous terrorist act or war crime regardless of the perpetrators.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 02:14
  #223 (permalink)  
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A black box isn't going to be of as much use as access to the crash site. Bits of missile warhead buried in the skin panels are the smoking gun, and should clarify which missile hit it.
The biggest problem here is when the government stands to loose face with such an incident then you cannot trust them not to tamper with any of the evidence. It will be very interesting to see just how co-operative and transparent the international investigation process will be.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 02:18
  #224 (permalink)  
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IFF was created for military usage and when civilians use it's function they do it 180 degrees opposite from the way a military would use it.

Since a military can't get the enemy to squawk an identifying code they have their 'friendly" A/C squawk a unique code.

Thus military air defense ignores all codes except the one they are looking for, and they wouldn't give a hoot if a target is squawking the same code used by airliners.

In today's case, with no air war in progress, there would have been no "friendly" code activated, so the SAM crew probably didn't even query the target they were engaging. There was no information for them to find in IFF codes.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 02:26
  #225 (permalink)  
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Buk repairs

Adding to the BUK operations discussion - just three days ago Sergey Kurginyan has promised to the DNR leaders that "a group of specialists has just arrived that will be repairing the Buk launchers taken in Ukraininan military base". This was probably part of the meeting at 7 July where they argued on details of arms deliveries to DNR.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 02:55
  #226 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by cockpitvisit
From the purely legal point of view, they actually have to be sent to Moscow. Ukraine is a member of the "International Aviation Committee (MAK)", which is responsible for accident investigations in most of ex-USSR member stages.

So a crash in the Ukraine (and it is still an accident at this point, since the missile is not 100% proven) would indeed be investigated by Moscow.
Since 2012 Ukraine has its own accident investigation bureau and it no longer needs MAK to provide these services.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 03:04
  #227 (permalink)  
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One of the reasons I am so adamant that planes should be well clear of war zones is that in the event of bad weather or an emergency there is room for planes to descend rapidly (ie example rapid depressurisation/loss of power) and not end up being shot down. Of course taking route deviations in war time costs extra fuel... but
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 04:05
  #228 (permalink)  
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Not overfly warzones?

Emirates, Flydubai and other airlines fly to Afghanistan and Iraq. Mogadishu is under consideration.
If you apply to Flydubai, it is clearly stated that you may be rostered to fly into warzones.

Money talks.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 04:08
  #229 (permalink)  
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The prime suspect goes by the name Strelkov - or "shooter". Real name Igor Girkin, the former Russian intelligence officer has shot his own troops for insubordination. He may have just shot down a passenger plane with 298 people on board.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 04:30
  #230 (permalink)  
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As previously stated it appears to be a missile that shot the 777 down so the CVR FDR would be useless anyway.....

All things normal.........then data stops..
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 04:30
  #231 (permalink)  
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A black box isn't going to be of as much use as access to the crash site. Bits of missile warhead buried in the skin panels are the smoking gun, and should clarify which missile hit it.
The KAL007 CVR and FDR was hidden in a safe of a Soviet official in the Kremlin until the Soviet Union broke up. Until it was handed over and analyzed, the West had no idea of what happened to the aircraft in terms of the breakup.

It turned out the cockpit crew was alive after the missile strike and was trying their best to control the aircraft. They also heard cabin announcements in the CVR which led them to believe that the aircraft was relatively intact after the missile strike. The passengers and crew suffered.

Unfortunately, the CVR and FDR are probably on the way to Moscow right now, probably never to be seen again for another generation.

God Bless General Patton. He had the right idea in 1945 after conquering western Nazi Germany, the Allies should've pushed on to Moscow.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 04:54
  #232 (permalink)  
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Something many in the aviation community are asking is why the hell were airlines flight planning departments routing their aircraft any where near a hot war zone, especially where an aircraft has been shot down in the 72 hrs before. It has been widely reported and shown on video that high powered SAM's were being brought into the area, as well as armed combat jets.

I imagine the relatives of the victims of the aircraft will be asking this question, leading into a lawsuit of biblical proportions.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 05:13
  #233 (permalink)  
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Russian ITAR-TASS informing about an An-26 being shot down by a missile.
????-????: ????????????? ???????? - ????????? ??????????????? ??? ????? ??????? ??-26 ?????????? ???

But it wasn't an An-26.
The report you mentioned is about another plane allegedly shot down on Monday in the Donetsk region: Contact lost with crew of An-26 military transport plane in Luhansk region

Be aware that the separatists claim to have shot down a number of Ukrainian military aircraft in the past weeks: Including at least seven Su-25 attack jets, three Su-24 attackers, one Su-27 fighter jet, an Il-76 military transport aircraft, and at least 17 Mi-8 and Mi-24 military helicopters.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 06:09
  #234 (permalink)  
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I suspect the 'unverified' could cover a number of different things. Normally next of kin are notified before the name of the deceased are announced. You may remember some of the passenger names and nationalities on MH370 who were announced as missing and presumably deceased were not on the flight and still living.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 06:12
  #235 (permalink)  
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The CVR would shed light on whether there was a Ukrainian air force escort. I'm surprised that there should be one - unless the fighters were hiding behind it! A wild idea - could the SSR transponder have failed? If it were being escorted because the transponder had failed, that would explain an air force escort that peeled off before they came in range of a rebel air defence unit.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 06:35
  #236 (permalink)  
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I'm puzzled as to why the nationality of 41 souls on board is stated as 'unverified'.
Advance Passenger Information System (APIS) requires a nationality to be stated in an SSR message sent to the airline, but I don't think Malaysia is one of the 20 or so countries that requires it.
A number of the passengers were on their way to Australia, which is an APIS country, and their PNRs would have contained this, others would not.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 06:49
  #237 (permalink)  
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An airline generally only requires that a passenger present one passport at check in.

That said, when a passenger checks in, the passport they present is used to check the entry requirement of the destination country. If the passport does not automatically qualify for entry, other checks are done which may require other passports.

For example, if you book a flight from the USA to Australia, when you book the flight you are often asked for passport information. Let's say you are a dual citizen, USA and Australia. You might book the flight with your Australian passport, as this is the passport that qualifies you for the entry requirements into Australia. At the gate in the USA, you would present your Australian passport. On the return flight back to the USA, often the gate agent needs the passport that matches the id used to make the booking. However, you will also need to present proof that you are eligible to enter the USA. This might be a visa in your passport or a passport of the country that you are entering. When you get to customs, they will want to see the passport of the destination country, regardless of what the check in agent asked to see.

I have three passports and have gone through this exercise countless times between countries. How it was handled by the airline was inconsistent and there were cases where my checked baggage (firearm importation) and the laws of the destination country seemed to make a difference.

My point is that having multiple passports is not uncommon, so where the airline has to classify each person by citizenship, they may have to do some homework. The public expects a clear answer right away and are unforgiving of corrections, so it might be better to say "unverified" and buy some time than get it wrong and change the story later.

As an aside, when I file a passenger manifest for flying people internationally (privately) out of the US with EAPIS, there is only one identity for passenger citizenship, so you have to choose whether it is the origin or destination country passport if the passenger has both.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 06:57
  #238 (permalink)  
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From Canberra - Australian Minister For Foreign Affairs, Julie Bishop, has announced a revised figure for the number of Australians on board, from the reported 27, to a revised number of 28.

Source - ABC Radio.

Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 18th Jul 2014 at 07:35.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 07:19
  #239 (permalink)  
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Talk about identification, roe, controls, war ZONES, etc are all from a Western, civilized and humanitarian aspect. One has only to consider what has happened from the Balkans through to the Middle East to realise behavioural norms are different.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 07:20
  #240 (permalink)  
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One would think that if a substantial number of United States citizens were on board, that there will be significant US involvement in the investigation.

However, at this point, there seems to be some speculation on how many US passengers there were:

1. Joe Biden said "There may have been American citizens on board"

Vice President Biden speaks at Cobo | News - Home

2. Other posters: "There is supposedly a large number of Americans dead. 23 is rumored." (A few posts back). I don't know from where this number originated.

3. The official Malaysian Airlines manifest report, yet incomplete, does not include any Americans, but 41 unverified:

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