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MH17 down near Donetsk

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MH17 down near Donetsk

Old 17th Jul 2014, 23:26
  #201 (permalink)  
 
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This type of system has no ability to discriminate between civilian aircraft or military aircraft. It simply targets based on a radar contact that is designated as a target. When the FIRE button is pushed, it goes after the target that is locked. IFF and transponders do not enter into the picture other than determining what the target is.
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Old 17th Jul 2014, 23:30
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by papaquebec
The only common-sense recipient of the FDR and CVR should, in this instance, be Boeing, the manufacturer.
After the debacle of the Malaysian loss earlier this year MH themselves cannot be trusted to disseminate the truth.
The Russians and Ukrainians (both sides) have axes to grind.
Ye and like the U.S. which is where Boeing is located doesn't

Last edited by tu144; 17th Jul 2014 at 23:41.
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Old 17th Jul 2014, 23:39
  #203 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by JaseAVV
So is it possible to just use the SA-11 TELAR or do they also possess the Snow Drift search radar which is an entirely separate vehicle?

Is it possible to just point the launchers Fire Dome radar at a contrail and launch a missile?
I don't see why not. Snow Drift does not communicate with SA-11 directly, it sends reports to the command post which can manually assign targets to TELARs. They are fully self-sufficient and capable of autonomous operation.
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Old 17th Jul 2014, 23:42
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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Insurance claims may be challenged as "acts of war" have exclusions.
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Old 17th Jul 2014, 23:45
  #205 (permalink)  
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There is separate 'War Cover' underwritten by what is locally known as the 'War Market', quite possibly increased premiums for aircraft choosing to overfly that route - all cover almost certainly suspended for over flights now.
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Old 17th Jul 2014, 23:46
  #206 (permalink)  

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Ye and like the U.S. which is where Boeing is located doesn't
Of all the places the "black boxes" should be sent to, Moscow is sure the hell not one of them. There is no logical, aviation reason for Moscow to have those recorders, only political.
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Old 17th Jul 2014, 23:53
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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Ministry of Disinformation.

That`s the very worst thing that could happen now.

lt`s stealing evidence.

lt should go to an independent house.

By force of arms if necessary.
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Old 17th Jul 2014, 23:56
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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A black box isn't going to be of as much use as access to the crash site. Bits of missile warhead buried in the skin panels are the smoking gun, and should clarify which missile hit it.
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Old 17th Jul 2014, 23:58
  #209 (permalink)  
 
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I doubt that the black boxes have much value in what caused this accident. I suspect we will know who and where this was launched from within the next 72 hours. The big question is are what we going to do about it to make sure it does not happen again?
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Old 17th Jul 2014, 23:59
  #210 (permalink)  
 
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Ceasefire

There was reported to be a suggestion of a three day ceasefire to allow investigations, from Alexander Borodai "PM" of the Donetsk rebels.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 00:05
  #211 (permalink)  
 
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Its actually making sure there's no incriminating evidence.

Could one of the major players have deliberately done this, yes, is it likely, NO! To much potential blow back if it ever came out who was behind this.

Could one of the major players have accidentally done this, yes, is it likely, yes! Even well trained armed forces have done it.

So the question is what system was it, and what level of training and support was actually needed to operate the system. There is no doubt Russia has advisors in the area, and others actually running things, the question is, did they have them helping out with that particular system.

It is no secret that the rebels have been pushed back lately, and as a result material support increasing to them. The simple fact is, nobody on the Rebel or Russian side (the players) will give a sh!t about a couple of hundred people, its war.

What they will give a sh!t about, is the PR and potential fallout.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 00:05
  #212 (permalink)  
 
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Unconfirmed but read this :

UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office issues strong travel warning
Thu, 17 Jul 2014 23:21 +0000 GMT

The UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office (FCO) advise against all travel to: Crimea, Donetsk oblast (region), Lugansk oblast (region) read more
Latest: Malaysia Airlines press conferences in Kuala Lumpur and Amsterdam
Thu, 17 Jul 2014 22:45 +0000 GMT

Many European tourists on their way to vacation in Malaysia and other East Asian countries were on the passenger list of MH 17. read more
Airbus sets new record at Farnborough
Thu, 17 Jul 2014 21:48 +0000 GMT

During the 2014 Farnborough Air Show, Airbus won US$75.3 billion worth of business for a total of 496 aircraft, making it by far the largest Farnborough show for Airbus – both in terms of dollar val...
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Thu, 17 Jul 2014 21:21 +0000 GMT

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Russia's Transaero Airlines commits to 20 A330s
Thu, 17 Jul 2014 21:20 +0000 GMT

Transaero Airlines, Russia’s second largest airline, signed a Letter of Intent with Airbus for 20 A330 aircraft (8 A330ceo and 12 A330neo). read more
KLM : Statement Malaysia Airlines MH17
Thu, 17 Jul 2014 21:20 +0000 GMT

KLM (Royal Dutch Airlines) issued the following statement on Thursday evening: read more
UKRAINIAN MILLITARY ESCORTED B777 UNTIL 3 MINUTES BEFORE DISAPPEARING
Ukraine air traffic controller suggests Kiev military shot down passenger plane





Jul 17, 2014
ETN received information from an air traffic controller in Kiev on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and was working in the Ukraine. He was taken off duty as a civil air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately after a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine killing 295 passengers and crew on board.

The air traffic controller suggested in a private evaluation and basing it on military sources in Kiev, that the Ukrainian military was behind this shoot down. Radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down.

Military air traffic controllers in internal communication acknowledged the military was involved, and some military chatter said they did not know where the order to shoot down the plane originated from.

Obviously it happened after a series of errors, since the very same plane was escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared from radar.

Radar screen shots also show an unexplained change of course of the Malaysian Boeing. The change of course took the aircraft directly over the Eastern Ukraine conflict region.

Some tweets received suggest this may have been a secret military uprising against the current Ukrainian president under the direction of formerly-jailed Prime Minister Timoshenko.

According to other rumors, the black box for this crashed Malaysian Airlines flight was taken by Donetsk separatists. A spokesperson for the rebel group said this black box would be sent to the Interstate Aviation Committee headquartered in Moscow.

The First Deputy Prime Minister of the self-proclaimed People's Republic of Donetsk, Andrew Purgin, stated that the flight recorders of the crashed aircraft will be transferred to Moscow for examination.

Sources say the Rebel group leadership hopes this would confirm the Ukrainian military actually shot down this aircraft. This was reported by the news agency Interfax-Ukraine.

ETN statement: The information in this article is independently confirmed and based on the statement of one airline controller and other tweets received.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 00:23
  #213 (permalink)  
 
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con pilot, the U. S. military spy satellite tracked the plane and the ascent phase of the missile, but not the launch. But then again, the U. S. typically doesn't reveal all of a satellite's capabilities.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 00:26
  #214 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by taufupok
KLM (Royal Dutch Airlines) issued the following statement on Thursday evening: read more
UKRAINIAN MILLITARY ESCORTED B777 UNTIL 3 MINUTES BEFORE DISAPPEARING
Ukraine air traffic controller suggests Kiev military shot down passenger plane
KLM released no such statement. Their statements are visible here: Newsroom KLM
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 00:36
  #215 (permalink)  

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con pilot, the U. S. military spy satellite tracked the plane and the ascent phase of the missile, but not the launch. But then again, the U. S. typically doesn't reveal all of a satellite's capabilities.
It was an infrared satellite, it can determine the launch site from the initial heat signature from when the missile was launched. I thought that was common knowledge, but if the powers to be don't want to make that public, well I guess we'll not be told.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 00:39
  #216 (permalink)  
 
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Of all the places the "black boxes" should be sent to, Moscow is sure the hell not one of them. There is no logical, aviation reason for Moscow to have those recorders, only political.
A very interesting point and I entirely agree. When a suspected military operation impacts a commercial flight the government involved should not be trusted at all, regardless of whether it is the USA, USSR or any other country for that matter.

I am sure there will be many opinions voiced loudly over this, more so than the TWA800 tragedy.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 00:51
  #217 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by con-pilot
Of all the places the "black boxes" should be sent to, Moscow is sure the hell not one of them. There is no logical, aviation reason for Moscow to have those recorders, only political.
From the purely legal point of view, they actually have to be sent to Moscow. Ukraine is a member of the "International Aviation Committee (MAK)", which is responsible for accident investigations in most of ex-USSR member stages.

So a crash in the Ukraine (and it is still an accident at this point, since the missile is not 100% proven) would indeed be investigated by Moscow.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 00:53
  #218 (permalink)  
 
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It says all the planes are flying around the armed conflict area why did this one (MH17) fly over it
No, this plane flew exactly as other aircraft in the area - it bypassed the area singled out by Eurocontrol as 'dangereous' (and restricted), it was outside the restricted airspace. This plane flew exactly as everybody else in the area per the latest info. Also the "closed" areas in the general area only blocked altitudes to FL320, this plane flew higher. So this plane was 100% 'legal' in terms of its route.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 01:39
  #219 (permalink)  
 
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Try this one..



BTW, belay my post #233!
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 02:05
  #220 (permalink)  
 
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To add a bit of perspective.


Has anybody considered the possibility a missile was NOT involved in the downing of this jet...?!

MH370 springs to mind. This time with a little bit of evidence to play with.
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