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MH17 down near Donetsk

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MH17 down near Donetsk

Old 18th Jul 2014, 07:26
  #241 (permalink)  
 
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Are there any BUK missiles in Syria or Iraq? Assets that ISIS can conveniently seize to repeat this horror?
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 07:27
  #242 (permalink)  
 
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That means it has to have been attacked from ahead as chasing a high flying a/c going at 9 miles a minute would soon exhaust its fuel supplies.

Google is your friend (or Wiki is)

Buk missile system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Depending on the model, these missiles can travel at Mach 2.5 to Mach 4. One video report says that it could hit the target in 40 seconds.

I don't think chasing is much of an issue.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 07:31
  #243 (permalink)  
 
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A trip to Wikipedia will remind people of Siberia Airlines 1812 which Ukraine never took formal responsibility for - according to wikipedia legal proceedings are still ongoing.

Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Maybe at this point Ukrainian airspace should be permanently closed.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 07:38
  #244 (permalink)  
 
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I'm puzzled as to why the nationality of 41 souls on board is stated as 'unverified'.

Isn't the nationality of each passenger recorded on the passenger list as they check-in and then board the flight?

Can anyone clarify?
Well established and valuable diplomatic protocols, I would think.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 07:39
  #245 (permalink)  
 
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Where would it hit

Where would the point of impact of this Buk missile be, would it hit an engine given the heat signature or impact the main body? Guessing MH17 was pretty full of fuel in the tanks so if it impacted the body it would surely have been a massive explosion/ disintegrated and hence no call made to ATC.

Last edited by paulftw; 18th Jul 2014 at 07:40. Reason: spelling
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 07:45
  #246 (permalink)  
 
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it is a radar guided missile so it wouldn't even see the heat given off by the engines, it would detonate when in proximity of the aircraft, so it wouldn't even have directly hit the plane., only the shrapnel from the missle
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 07:46
  #247 (permalink)  
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I submit the issue of training is a red herring also.

Yes, a military operator will require extensive training, but that is required so the they can operate and maintain, assess performance, undertake proper c2 functions etc.

Given a reasonable competence (how many read computer manuals today?) and trial and error I suspect that they could switch on, get a lock and fire. Niceties such as roe, eccm, identification, speed of reaction and reload are all unnecessary.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 08:00
  #248 (permalink)  
 
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Niceties such as roe, eccm, identification, speed of reaction and reload are all unnecessary.
Fully agree!

The main challenge of modern (responsible/ethical) military is threat identification and recognition. Most modern weapon systems are designed to be able to fire quickly, it is the SOPs, protocols that slow things down. Not that the rebels are that concerned about. I bet they use the good old, "anything from that direction is BAD".
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 08:03
  #249 (permalink)  
 
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The PlanePlotter server has data to the last contact.....to the second

As always , the information has been locked down and sent to the AAIB in raw format. They will forward it to the relevant authorities who are overseeing the incident.
This confirms the transponder was operational.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 08:15
  #250 (permalink)  
 
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highflier40: flightradar24 is based on ADS-B information, it has nothing to do with the transponder, don't take it as a radar, because it is not...
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 08:16
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Whos going to claim reponsiblity for tis 1, no doubt its an accident, the world takes a very dim few of killing 295 civilians, if you want to have aq war, fill your boots, but dont drag everyone else into it.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 08:29
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The report you mentioned is about another plane allegedly shot down on Monday in the Donetsk region
Russian media has reported each of these incidents separately, each time kind of celebrating them as DNR achievements:

The problem with the last two from 17 July is that there was no An-26 shoot down at that day. And these news reports were published just a moment before it became evident that he alleged An-26 came out to be Boeing-777.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 08:33
  #253 (permalink)  
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The missile will determine the range rate closure and initiate detonation before it reaches its target. This distance is determined to allow the expanding rod warhead to reach its maximum diameter and act, as previously said, like a circular saw. It will chop through whatever it hits. If the rod breaks then each component will act like a flail

The size of the rod depends on war head length and diameter and rod size. 45 feet is typical.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 08:37
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jagohu - ADS-B uses mode S transponder, so if the transponder is not working, then so to is ads-b not working
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 08:41
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The Tail section ( APU area, Fin etc ) were located quite a way from the main fuselage Engines indicating they separated in flight. Therefore you could deduce the missile basically blew the tail off. This would immediately cause violent deadly G forces on the crew.

THEY WOULD NOT HAVE KNOWN WHAT HIT THEM.

Forget a damn Mayday call
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 08:41
  #256 (permalink)  
 
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Malaysian airlines better have deep pockets on this one
If SQ, EK and numerous others were also operating through there, does that still make MH so negligent?
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 08:42
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The unplanned results in an unauthorised descent if you are dealing with ATC in places like China or these regions due in part to English Lang issues or simply the Chinese mindset who often refuse any sort of manoeuvre to avoid weather for example. Not a lot of time in either situation to negotiate a clearance I would suggest?
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 08:43
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This is a very sad and tragic story for the families of the lost and also Malaysian Airlines who might be badly run at the top but from my modest experience of them have some very dedicated staff. Bad enough to lose two 777s close together but overlay Asian superstitions and it could look very bleak for the company (I am not criticising or stereotyping here but bad luck /ill fortune is looked on a bit differently than in the west.

It seems highly likely that the plane was downed by a Ukraine Gov or UK rebel missile fired recklessly , criminal recklessness but not deliberate intent to shoot down a third country airliner.

Will the truth come out cleanly, not at all sure , neither Russia not US have clean hands in this department do they , Korean 007 and Iran Air Airbus respectively deny them both the moral high ground and both those incidents happened with organised and sophisticated integrated air defence systems with complex ROE.

The saddest thing though is that for the most part the airlines have played fast and loose with PAX lives for a good few years by taking chances with overflying or skirting dangerous areas. In this case it seems someone was very happy with a tiny margin for error , airspace closed up to FL320 so FL330 must be Ok then . Turned around a little it could be said that if either Ukraine side shot at a military jet at 320 missed it and brought down this 777 then that would have been perfectly acceptable accident -I don't think so.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 08:47
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Yes, just unlucky again. Anyway, who says the others were? My airline has avoided the area since this started and I can't believe first world airlines wouldn't have done likewise. ICAO clearly has some questions to answer as well. These missiles have an envelope which exceeds any likely civilian aircraft cruising altitude.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 08:52
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"Not overfly warzones?

Emirates, Flydubai and other airlines fly to Afghanistan and Iraq. Mogadishu is under consideration.
If you apply to Flydubai, it is clearly stated that you may be rostered to fly into warzones.

Money talks."

Afghanistan and Iraq and Somalia rebels don't possess high-altitude SAMs, and it was well-known fact that prorussians have them and don't really have experience to operate them properly

even syrian rebels don't have them and still only syrian and jordanian airlines fly through syrian FIR
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