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MH17 down near Donetsk

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MH17 down near Donetsk

Old 18th Jul 2014, 12:36
  #301 (permalink)  
 
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1.4 tonnes of Lithium Ion Batteries on the manifest, surely not an issue with Dangerous Air Cargo ?
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 12:43
  #302 (permalink)  

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This is a clip which purports to show a Buk launcher being driven towards the Russian border earlier today. It has a missile missing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mICnsgEY7wE
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 12:48
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The cargo manifest is published at the Malaysian Airlines website
http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/cont...nifest%201.pdf
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 12:58
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#314 video looks fake as all hell. Wx is wrong, the flames don't look real, frankly nothing looks real about that vid.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 13:00
  #305 (permalink)  
 
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From Alpha83:
"Russia closed, among many others bordering Ukraine, a segment of the A87 airway (this particular segment was on flight 17's route, just minutes away before the shootdown) by NOTAM as of 0000Z on July 17th, i.e. more than 12 hours before the crash."
Specifically the A87 segment was the continuation in Russia of the L980 Ukraine route MH17 was flying.
Some airlines' flights in the past week, Air France and BA in particular on routes to Bangkok had been avoiding eastern Ukraine while others had not (including a bit surprisingly KLM of Air France-KLM on flight to Kuala Lumpur).
Article and maps courtesy of the NY Times at
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...ight-mh17.html
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 13:01
  #306 (permalink)  
 
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in response to post #314: It has been mentioned before here: totally different weather conditions. Here blue skies, footage of wreckage scattered clouds all over!
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 13:02
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There's not a cloud in the sky in the video. Crash scene videos from every angle just after the crash show heavily congested partly cloudy skies.
Don't know???
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 13:10
  #308 (permalink)  
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Right, very easy.





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Old 18th Jul 2014, 13:14
  #309 (permalink)  
 
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If you're trained, that's easy! Never done army service eh..
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 13:15
  #310 (permalink)  
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Grand Theft Aero.

The Russians have scooped up the CVR &FDG and taken them to Moscow....... They'll mess with the data to 'cleanse' it of course. They have simply stolen them. They should be in Kiev, or Holland - or malaysia. Moscow is the LAST place on Earth they should have ended-up. What a farce... Reminds one what a backward dump Russia is...
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 13:19
  #311 (permalink)  
 
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RE route A87

If the Russians had closed route A87, that implies that the route over the Ukrainian was dead headed, was it not? It begs the question, who is responsible to check continuity of routes?

The other question is, this could imply the Russians new there was going to be an excalation in capabilitys by the rebels. As such the route closure was a method of ensuring no civilian traffic, with out letting on what they know?
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 13:25
  #312 (permalink)  
 
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If the Russians closed the A87, for sure they knew something is gojng on in there to put their own airlines in sudden threat..

No bombs, no lithium batteries, more likely a proximity blast from a SAM that compromises the flying capabilities but leaves the hull intact till ground impact, hence the big black smoke..
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 13:25
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Alpha83,

Please go back to flying school to learn how to read NOTAM properly! FL320 was the limit where GND to FL530 is the corridor of one of the gateway.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 13:27
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V6158/14 - due to combat actions on the territory of the ukraine near the
state border with the russian federation and the facts of firing
from the territory of the ukraine towards the territory of russian
federation, to ensure intl flt safety,
ats rte segments clsd as flw:
A100 mimra - rostov-na-donu vor/dme (rnd) ,
b145 kanon - asmil,
g247 mimra - bagayevskiy ndb (ba),
a87 tamak - sarna,
a102 peneg - nalem,
a225 gukol - odeta,
a712 tamak - sambek ndb (sb),
b493 fasad - rostov-na-donu vor/dme (rnd),
b947 tamak - rostov-na-donu vor/dme (rnd),
g118 latri - bagayevskiy ndb (ba),
g534 mimra - toros,
g904 fasad - sutag,
r114 bagayevskiy ndb (ba)-nalem.
sfc - fl320.
Dep fm/arr to rostov-na-donu ad to/fm moscow fir carried out along
ats rte g128 konstantinovsk ndb (ka) - morozovsk vor/dme (mor) and
r11 morozovsk vor/dme (mor) - butri on assigned fl.
Dep fm rostov-na-donu ad to dnepropetrovsk fir carried out along
ats rte a102 konstantinovsk ndb (ka) - nalem on fl340 and above.
arr to rostov-na-donu ad fm dnepropetrovsk fir carried out along
ats rte a712 tamak - sambek ndb (sb) then dct konstantinovsk ndb
(ka) on fl330 and above. Sfc - fl530,
17 jul 00:00 2014 until 31 aug 23:59 2014
estimated. Created: 16 jul 17:08 2014
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 13:38
  #315 (permalink)  
 
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Transcript of comms between Ukranian separatists. Indicates the level of "intelligence" (i.e. delusion) some of these people have, especially the "commander" with his inane remark about it carrying spies.
He was deep into rationalisation at that point. He knows he screwed up.

The thing that puzzles me is there must have been command awareness of the substantial civilian traffic overhead; you just wouldn't, surely?

I read elsewhere (I'm sorry I cannot recall the source, it may have been here) that there was a trailing flight on the same track around 25nm from the accident area, and would have entered the same engagement zone within 3-5 minutes (potentially before MH17 had even struck the ground) so it is fortunate more were not also engaged. The question is, why this one flight?
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 13:52
  #316 (permalink)  
 
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"Right, very easy."

there is a huge difference in difficulty between ability to fire a rocket at some plane and abiility to properly identify and acquire target above that

that difference has now costed life 300 people and they are not the only side to blame, the government is bombing them frequently and if they have means to respond I can't expect them to refrain from firing because there could be situation where they would get killed if they don't fire on time (however I am not sure of ukrainian SEAD capabilities)

it's a warzone with active SAMs, not the place for civilian aircraft, Ende
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 13:55
  #317 (permalink)  
 
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I think it's pretty clear now that the separatists shot it down. Politicians are doing there usual song and dance and not committing to anything.

Question is what should we do about it? Certainly can't go unpunished but talks always fail, more often than not because Putin just ignores the West.

There has to be a serious response to this not half assed economic sanctions.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 13:59
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Hello everyone,

One thing mentioned yesterday by Polish military pilot, worth mentioning here I guess.

Russian systems have an IFF, which is not ICAO compatible. What it does, is basically showing russian military planes as own, and everything else is enemy, even if that's the civil plane with standard ICAO mode3 sending civil id.

Furthermore, before posting anything, notice all photos are showing debris under overcast sky. So - sorry, all videos are fake.

Plus, there are three parties who might've shot the plane down. Ukrainians, Russians, or separatists themselves. If debris allows the id of missiles (and it's a Buk), it's down to two. If it's S-300 - it's down to two. BUT - I feel it's anyways down to two. You don't just get the highly sophisticated SAM battery and shoot them next day after. You need a group of organized and trained men to operate. So, my guess it's either Ukrainians, or Russians. There might be a quick separatist finger on the trigger there, but I cannot imagine them running without all the required support.

Anyways - very sad day and a sign we cannot accept war - there are no wars which we can actually skip. It seems they'll return to us sooner or later.
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 13:59
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Numpty question: is it possible to detect any tampering with the data on a FDR/CVR?
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Old 18th Jul 2014, 14:25
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Just for clarity, please do not keep referring to 007 as "the Korean Airlines plane" that was shot down by the Russians.

They have shot down two, at least.

Flight 007 in 1983 was the second one.

The first was a 707, KAL flight 902 from Paris in April 1978. Friends of mine were on board that flight; through pilot skill and luck, they and their new-born baby survived.

For reference:
Russia: Soviets Ordered Korean Airliner Shot Down in 1978

Thank you.

Last edited by jolihokistix; 18th Jul 2014 at 15:28.
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