Lionair plane down in Bali.

[usanthony]

The FO is Indian ?

[HotDog]

I would still like to know where is the horizontal stabiliser which is missing

It's under the water mate! Did you notice the aft fuselage broke and the back of it sank under the water?

[dmussen]

Bali Prang.

Turok,

Rumours shall abound. However if Cappie wasn't happy with aircraft why did he not remain on terra ferma, have a cuppa and wait until he was happy?
D.

[Airclues]

One of the passengers stated that "the aircraft was in landing position, when it suddenly got closer to the sea and finally hit the water".

Might this imply that it landed short rather than overran?

[Eastern_Skyjets]

Lion's entire 737 fleet have been grounded

[SOPS]

Eastern, are you sure of that?

[Eastern_Skyjets]

source is an Aussie Lion pilot who works for them

[cldrvr]

Lion's entire 737 fleet have been grounded

Glad to hear. They should make an example out of these guys to put an end to this horrid and dangerous P2F rubbish that is taking over the world. Take their AOC away and put them out of business.

On to the next one, time to take all these P2F training airlines, including the ones in Europe out of business once and for all and follow the lead set by the FAA.

Why are we in Europe so slow in strengthening the rules here, does it take the death of a few hundred pax and a few innocent people on the ground to finally act?

Kids with only a few hours on type and 6 landings under their belt have no place in the pointy end of any aircraft anywhere.

[Centaurus]

Kids with only a few hours on type and 6 landings under their belt have no place in the pointy end of any aircraft anywhere.

Maybe the captain was PF?

[Bumps]

Glad to see all are safe, surely won't be long till one of these wunderkinds plunks an orange or purple one in the English countryside.

We stopped using FR and eJ for ferrying crews/personel as soon as they both started to put 18 year old kids in the right seat. All of the employees of our principals businesses are not allowed to fly eJ and FR at any time.

Both eJ and FR have a great model for shareholders, I just wouldn't trust them as a passenger, and the great ride for the investors will come to an abrupt halt when one of these kids with daddies money feggs it up.

You should probably advise your company to stop flying British Airways then as well, as they've been putting 200hr guys in the RHS for decades. Having 200-hour guys is not a problem as long as they are trained and tested accordingly. Both FR and EZY have stellar safety records, a lot better than many legacy carriers considering how many flights they operate.

Lion on the other hand, and other Indonesian/Indian carriers in general, I understand the widespread concerns about. But that's completely different to the operations FR and EZY conduct so your point is invalid.

[CleverK1]

A lot of people are bashing P2F now. I'm for sure against it as well. But we don't even know if that was the cause here. Everybody is alive...they might have shown some exceptional pilot skills...
There is a lot wrong with P2F....but low time pilots are employed in other areas as well. And without major problems.
Probably we should look into the whole indonesian aviation business, authorities etc.

[Eastern_Skyjets]

if this was Delta the crew would be hailed as hero's, the name Lion just makes you loose before you have even started playing

[Dan Winterland]

Exactly. Chesney Sullenburger is recognised as a hero for ditching an aircraft in an incident where everyone survived - just as did this Lion Air crew did. Lets hear the facts before casting judgement.

[ROSCO328]

Cldrvr,

You make yourself sound like a bitter little man with some of your comments. As a skipper with EJ I fly regularly with some of these so called " kids " and without getting into a tit for tat I would say you have no clue what you are talking about BUT you are entitled to your opinion. Going on a complete guess I would say Ej's safety record is without question one of the best in the business.

[cldrvr]

stop flying British Airways then as well, as they've been putting 200hr guys
in the RHS for decades

If BA ever decides to recruit 200 hour guys based on the size of their wallet and not their experience we will surely do so. We now have a few thousand employees who no longer fly eJ and FR, does it make a difference, probably not, but as soon as more employers/business wake up to the fact of how these P2F airlines operate and start talking with their feet it may some day make aviation a safer place then it is now.

[Metro man]

"If you think safety is expensive, try having an accident"

I wonder if this will affect the EU blacklist on Indonesian airlines, with Garuda having only just been taken off.

Report here about drug taking involving Lion Air pilots.

Airlines Banned in EU: Who Is Checking If Your Airline is Safe? : Condé Nast Traveler

[Eastern_Skyjets]

Ryan and Easy are not P2F airlines
Lion on the other hand is, if you have the money and can pass the assesment your in! regardless of experince

[cldrvr]

Going on a complete guess I would say Ej's safety record is without question
one of the best in the business.

Only a matter of time, the discussion was held in the US after a spate of mishaps with low houred guys who were underpaid, overworked and underqualified. They changed the landscape there, only a matter of time until we do the same here.

I have been in aviation for 40 years and have experienced this low hour phenomena directly and must say that nothing good will ever come of it. Of the FO's we hired last year, the lowest time one had 4,000 hours and could hit the ground running, unlike these 200 hour kids with a fat wallet.

The way eJ and FR operate it is only a matter of time until something happens to the experienced LHS guy and the fate of the 150 pax is in the hand of an inexperienced FO with a few hours.

If you are happy to put yourself in that situation, go right ahead, I won't. A professional pilot's job is all about limiting risk, not increasing it by adding a 160 kid with no experience in the RHS.

[cldrvr]

Ryan and Easy are not P2F airlines

Go knock on their door with no experience and 250k and see how quickly they will welcome you with open arms.

This debate has been fought for a long time here in PPRuNE and it won't get solved today, there are too many who have a direct benefit of this P2F scheme.

I am not going to be the one who will make the difference, I am just a single voice out of many and as soon as our view gains a bit more traction we will make a difference.

Once that happens all of our T&C's will improve and we will start enjoying our career again.

If my principal will ever contemplate a similar scheme, I am not going to willingly participate in increasing my risk and eroding my T&C's like so many eJ and FR senior crew have done over the years, I will walk.

[Eastern_Skyjets]

ok well I was not aware they were P2F airlines and I am only going on a basic knowledge so if that is true I appologies