Lionair plane down in Bali.
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in order to understand any of the modern gadgets, one must understand whence we came...the old ways.
I didn't fly DC3's, but I know I would be home in one.yet, in my day I was the first kid on my block to have full RNAV coverage for the USA...before civilian use of GPS!
any modern pilot not familiar with "fate is the hunter" has no business in the cockpit of a plane.
the same traps are out there...
I didn't fly DC3's, but I know I would be home in one.yet, in my day I was the first kid on my block to have full RNAV coverage for the USA...before civilian use of GPS!
any modern pilot not familiar with "fate is the hunter" has no business in the cockpit of a plane.
the same traps are out there...
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ExSp33db1rd Primary pilot training.
The text below is by a RAF WW2 night-fighter pilot (F/O L. J. York, DFC) about his primary pilot training in the USA in 1942. How things have changed.
Primary School was at Tuscaloosa, Alabama (a University town). Here we flew Steerman PT17's (PT=Primary Trainer). They were (and still are) Radial Engine Biplanes about twice the weight of a Tiger Moth. The instructors were civilian ex bush pilots with at least 5,000 hours flying. The aircraft had no instruments whatsoever not even an air speed indicator.
We were taught to fly 'by the seat of your pants'. The whistle of the wind in the bracing wires was your air speed indicator, When it went quiet, you knew you were too slow and near the stall. It was a superb training to get you to have the real 'feel' of flying.
At the end of the two-month course, I had done a total of 67 hours flying. 50% of the course had been eliminated. For the Americans it meant that they would not be pilots. For the British it meant being shipped up to Canada, for re-assessment. We could not be as choosy as the Americans and some were trained as pilots in Canada.
We were taught to fly 'by the seat of your pants'. The whistle of the wind in the bracing wires was your air speed indicator, When it went quiet, you knew you were too slow and near the stall. It was a superb training to get you to have the real 'feel' of flying.
At the end of the two-month course, I had done a total of 67 hours flying. 50% of the course had been eliminated. For the Americans it meant that they would not be pilots. For the British it meant being shipped up to Canada, for re-assessment. We could not be as choosy as the Americans and some were trained as pilots in Canada.
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@Gobonastick
That is simply NOT credible. Aircraft from the West for a landing on 09 NEVER approach from the East unless landing on 27. If landing on 27, the track would be well North of the field then over South Bali and the East coast and possibly out to sea (Depending on traffic) before lining up for the 27 approach. Either way, such a sighting from the Terminal would NOT be possible.
I strongly suggest that this "Eye Witness" can be discounted.
I strongly suggest that this "Eye Witness" can be discounted.
Last edited by philipat; 18th Apr 2013 at 11:36.
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The bottom line in this accident has to be how the crew handled the visual segment, at or before the MDA. Boeing wipers we know are crap. VASI/PAPI indications in heavy rain would have been visually limiting. Experience would have counted and reversion to basic skills for a successful in zone landing would then become primary functions..ie magenta dependency has to be dumped in favour for the cognitive flying skills that are the building blocks of what we do as professional aviators, irrespective of the types we fly.
Dozy and others;
No, this thread is not the place to wander into those areas, and I apologize once again to contributors.
At the same time however, in the same manner that organizational factors may be examined for their contribution to the causal pathway in an accident, I think we can take one more step ack and acknowledge how automation and pixelation have changed our perception of what we do in the cockpit.
What got me thinking was someone on the thread who mentioned the possibility that this accident may be like the One-Two-Go MD80 go-around accident at Phuket and insofar as that connection can be made with the oft-mentioned in the thread, "children of the M. line" metaphor, I thought a bit of a wander was reasonable.
But nothing more on this here, as we need to reserve space for the recorder data, when & if that comes!
sevenstrokeroll;
Yessir, they are. That's the reason I decided to write what I did. What's more, I think we who have done this work for a few decades all sense the change in some way. I'm sure that most just coming into the profession and being hired by the likes of some outfits haven't a clue what they don't know and won't be told by their employer.
I think automation contributes enormously to flight safety, but not if one doesn't know how to fly and think.
QED.
PJ2
No, this thread is not the place to wander into those areas, and I apologize once again to contributors.
At the same time however, in the same manner that organizational factors may be examined for their contribution to the causal pathway in an accident, I think we can take one more step ack and acknowledge how automation and pixelation have changed our perception of what we do in the cockpit.
What got me thinking was someone on the thread who mentioned the possibility that this accident may be like the One-Two-Go MD80 go-around accident at Phuket and insofar as that connection can be made with the oft-mentioned in the thread, "children of the M. line" metaphor, I thought a bit of a wander was reasonable.
But nothing more on this here, as we need to reserve space for the recorder data, when & if that comes!
sevenstrokeroll;
the same traps are out there...
I think automation contributes enormously to flight safety, but not if one doesn't know how to fly and think.
QED.
PJ2
Last edited by PJ2; 18th Apr 2013 at 07:36.
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Originally Posted by Pucka
The bottom line in this accident has to be how the crew handled the visual segment, at or before the MDA.
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@ Gobonastick
I've had a good look at the available ADS-B data from FlightRadar24, which terminates as the aircraft intercepts the extended runway 09 at 29NM from the threshold (abt. 28.5NM from ditching). At 0700Z the ADS-B reported - posn 8.7093S 114.6923E, alt 8350, gs 291KTS, V/S 1536FPM, hdg 128T. The impression I have is that the Lionair 738 was #1 in sequence to a Virgin Oz 738 approaching from the SE which was clearly able to join for 09 earlier but appears to have been given a speed restriction.
Without knowing LNI1904's ATC clearance, it looks as if it was cleared to join for 09, but at 0700 it was already low on the extended glide slope, and some other factors indicate that they kept their speed up until fairly late on the approach. Assuming they configured rather late for landing, there may have been more concern in bleeding speed off rather that watching their V/S, which resulted in the aircraft getting on the wrong side of the drag curve when they ran into a heavy squall. With AoA margin decreasing in the rain, any NU resulted in the reported "sinking feeling" at CLmax break. Luckily for everyone, there wasn't too much available airspace and the A/C belly flopped into the tide.
As for the Virgin Oz 738, it joined RH for 09 at about the same time as Lionair started paddling in the coral, and was immediately vectored to the ESE on a long RH circuit to rejoin and land 20mins later at 0730Z. Its position prior to the Lionair accident and shortly after may account for various reports attributed to "eye witnesses" by the media.
@ PJ2
Guessing that the A/C was probably 15 degrees or more NU at impact with the Bali Strait, the resulting dolphin dive probably caused the wipers to go vertical!
I've had a good look at the available ADS-B data from FlightRadar24, which terminates as the aircraft intercepts the extended runway 09 at 29NM from the threshold (abt. 28.5NM from ditching). At 0700Z the ADS-B reported - posn 8.7093S 114.6923E, alt 8350, gs 291KTS, V/S 1536FPM, hdg 128T. The impression I have is that the Lionair 738 was #1 in sequence to a Virgin Oz 738 approaching from the SE which was clearly able to join for 09 earlier but appears to have been given a speed restriction.
Without knowing LNI1904's ATC clearance, it looks as if it was cleared to join for 09, but at 0700 it was already low on the extended glide slope, and some other factors indicate that they kept their speed up until fairly late on the approach. Assuming they configured rather late for landing, there may have been more concern in bleeding speed off rather that watching their V/S, which resulted in the aircraft getting on the wrong side of the drag curve when they ran into a heavy squall. With AoA margin decreasing in the rain, any NU resulted in the reported "sinking feeling" at CLmax break. Luckily for everyone, there wasn't too much available airspace and the A/C belly flopped into the tide.
As for the Virgin Oz 738, it joined RH for 09 at about the same time as Lionair started paddling in the coral, and was immediately vectored to the ESE on a long RH circuit to rejoin and land 20mins later at 0730Z. Its position prior to the Lionair accident and shortly after may account for various reports attributed to "eye witnesses" by the media.
@ PJ2
Guessing that the A/C was probably 15 degrees or more NU at impact with the Bali Strait, the resulting dolphin dive probably caused the wipers to go vertical!
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Very long time ago in a country not far from this place a local operator was just behind a foreign airline but other direction both approaching for a VOR app. Local controller told local operator in local dialect to keep the speed up and I will make you No 1 . Local intercepted dme arc , flew through inbound radial clean , continued descent at a high descent rate while trying to configure . The foreign aircraft reported sighting the aircraft in the water but no response from a now empty control tower .
I'm in no way saying this is what happened here .
I'm in no way saying this is what happened here .
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Originally Posted by Gob
Just seemed an oddly specific remark from the witness, that's all.
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Lion Air Pilot Boeing Pilot Award Rate
Translated from Tempo.co (indonesian news network)
"Management stated Lion Air Boeing 737-800 NG aircraft pilot who crashed in Bali on Saturday to receive an award from the Boeing Company. "Mr. Ghozali, pilot, may award from Boeing," said Director of Airport Operations and Services Lion Air, Daniel Putut Kuncoro Adi, when contacted by Tempo, Thursday, April 18, 2013.
Putut not give a detailed explanation of the award. He said he would explain that after handing compensation to the victims this afternoon.
The news of awards to pilots who have won more than 10 thousand hours of flying was previously known from chirp Mahlup daughter, Sari Desita Dinda, on social networking site Twitter.
On April 16, 2013 at 16:35, Dinda typing tweet about his father received the award from Boeing. He also put pictures Mahlup, Mahlup wife, and a strange man who was standing in the office area. "Speech award dr parusahaan Boeing: '))," the chatter Dinda.
Previously, at 10.37 o'clock, Dinda also type a tweet that said her father received an award from the Chief of Bali Police. However, this time he did not put pictures, but only tag the tweet spot position is typed, ie, Lion Air Tower 6th floor. "Cieee Papap the chief of police dpt dr awards bali .. so i dont care about the news in the media ...," he said".
Tempo 18/04/2013
"Management stated Lion Air Boeing 737-800 NG aircraft pilot who crashed in Bali on Saturday to receive an award from the Boeing Company. "Mr. Ghozali, pilot, may award from Boeing," said Director of Airport Operations and Services Lion Air, Daniel Putut Kuncoro Adi, when contacted by Tempo, Thursday, April 18, 2013.
Putut not give a detailed explanation of the award. He said he would explain that after handing compensation to the victims this afternoon.
The news of awards to pilots who have won more than 10 thousand hours of flying was previously known from chirp Mahlup daughter, Sari Desita Dinda, on social networking site Twitter.
On April 16, 2013 at 16:35, Dinda typing tweet about his father received the award from Boeing. He also put pictures Mahlup, Mahlup wife, and a strange man who was standing in the office area. "Speech award dr parusahaan Boeing: '))," the chatter Dinda.
Previously, at 10.37 o'clock, Dinda also type a tweet that said her father received an award from the Chief of Bali Police. However, this time he did not put pictures, but only tag the tweet spot position is typed, ie, Lion Air Tower 6th floor. "Cieee Papap the chief of police dpt dr awards bali .. so i dont care about the news in the media ...," he said".
Tempo 18/04/2013
PJ2 - I agree that we should return to the subject of the accident, but I would just like to make a couple more comments.
I was once told, but can't verify, that when Eddie Rickenbacker was in charge of Eastern Airlines he refused to have aircraft fitted with the then fairly new Sperry autopilot of the era, on the grounds that those guys are paid to fly, so make them fly. Maybe some Eastern Old Fart can confirm ?
and ... I well remember the furore over the then BEA experiment of the two pilots flying a "monitored approach" whereby the non-handling pilot did nothing but look out of the window until he had the runway in sight and could positively take over and make a visual landing, meanwhile the handling pilot kept resolutely on instruments and made no attempt to transition from instrument flying to visual flying, and if at Minima the non-handling pilot had not taken over, then the instrument flying pilot started the go-around without further command. The concept was to avoid the difficulty of making the transition from instruments to visual, and maybe back to instruments again if nothing was in sight.
I was in Idlewild ( not Kennedy ) Customs one day when a grizzled old (!) PanAm Captain came over to us and asked if we were that Limey outfit carrying out the monitored approach nonsense ? ( we weren't, we were BOAC not BEA ) He went on to say that PanAm had been carrying out Monitored Approach procedures evers since the formation of the airline. Oh, really we said, Yes, he replied - I fly, he monitors.
Now ... about this accident ..............
I was once told, but can't verify, that when Eddie Rickenbacker was in charge of Eastern Airlines he refused to have aircraft fitted with the then fairly new Sperry autopilot of the era, on the grounds that those guys are paid to fly, so make them fly. Maybe some Eastern Old Fart can confirm ?
and ... I well remember the furore over the then BEA experiment of the two pilots flying a "monitored approach" whereby the non-handling pilot did nothing but look out of the window until he had the runway in sight and could positively take over and make a visual landing, meanwhile the handling pilot kept resolutely on instruments and made no attempt to transition from instrument flying to visual flying, and if at Minima the non-handling pilot had not taken over, then the instrument flying pilot started the go-around without further command. The concept was to avoid the difficulty of making the transition from instruments to visual, and maybe back to instruments again if nothing was in sight.
I was in Idlewild ( not Kennedy ) Customs one day when a grizzled old (!) PanAm Captain came over to us and asked if we were that Limey outfit carrying out the monitored approach nonsense ? ( we weren't, we were BOAC not BEA ) He went on to say that PanAm had been carrying out Monitored Approach procedures evers since the formation of the airline. Oh, really we said, Yes, he replied - I fly, he monitors.
Now ... about this accident ..............
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 18th Apr 2013 at 10:16.
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I'm in no way saying this is what happened here .
Please can't you wait a few more days, the CVR/FDR have been recovered .
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yes, lets wait for the facts
but of course, the facts might not be the facts.
well, everyone got out alive...and I'm sure they didn't hit a flock of geese and that the plane wasn't at fault.
well, everyone got out alive...and I'm sure they didn't hit a flock of geese and that the plane wasn't at fault.
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@Sevenstrokeroll
The NTSB is involved because of the "Boeing" angle. As far as I am aware, Indonesia has no capability of analysing Box data, so it will have to go to The US or The UK for analysis.
Whilst there might be some todying to Indonesian interests (Like in that disgusting Air Crash Investigation Episode where Bapak Franz is so useful), I find it unlikely that the recent Lion order of Boeing NG's would in any way compromise the truth in this investigation. Especially involving a 73.
Unless I am misunderstanding your intended meaning here?
More likely to hit Ducks in Bali but they are usually encountered crispy and not on the Kuta reef!!
Whilst there might be some todying to Indonesian interests (Like in that disgusting Air Crash Investigation Episode where Bapak Franz is so useful), I find it unlikely that the recent Lion order of Boeing NG's would in any way compromise the truth in this investigation. Especially involving a 73.
Unless I am misunderstanding your intended meaning here?
More likely to hit Ducks in Bali but they are usually encountered crispy and not on the Kuta reef!!
Last edited by philipat; 18th Apr 2013 at 12:11.
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Yes lets wait for the facts
My story concludes with the 2 controllers never making it to the trial. One committed suicide the other died in car accident on the way to inquest, both a bit mysterious.
I have heard nothing about what happen to this plane , I am very grateful everybody got out . My story happened a long time ago but it illustrates that waiting for the final report to come out may add nothing to air safety, what is being discussed here does. No offence to the Lion air crew .
I have heard nothing about what happen to this plane , I am very grateful everybody got out . My story happened a long time ago but it illustrates that waiting for the final report to come out may add nothing to air safety, what is being discussed here does. No offence to the Lion air crew .
Last edited by Toruk Macto; 18th Apr 2013 at 12:33.
No , but you are suggesting it, and based on evidence , or rumor you've heard ? I guess .Jeezz...
Please can't you wait a few more days, the CVR/FDR have been recovered .
Please can't you wait a few more days, the CVR/FDR have been recovered .
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Sevenstrokeroll:
I certainly agree with you that we should wait for the facts... especially since I am not as sure as you that there was nothing wrong with the plane... it being a fresh delivery from a company recently blighted by quality control issues.
I'm not having a pop at Boeing I'm just saying that on balance I want to see raw data from the recorders before I decide for myself what the lessons are from this incident.
The speculation is getting very convincing from some posters on here but until we know what was being said and done at the time of the event, were just trying to fit a square peg into a round hole!
I certainly agree with you that we should wait for the facts... especially since I am not as sure as you that there was nothing wrong with the plane... it being a fresh delivery from a company recently blighted by quality control issues.
I'm not having a pop at Boeing I'm just saying that on balance I want to see raw data from the recorders before I decide for myself what the lessons are from this incident.
The speculation is getting very convincing from some posters on here but until we know what was being said and done at the time of the event, were just trying to fit a square peg into a round hole!
ExSp33db1rd;
Yes, back on thread but thanks for your response. In re Rickenbacker, fascinating man and life. I suspect even men who seem larger-than-life like Rickenbacker could treat automation as the third, (or possibly even the second) pilot. I believe we see that thinking today in non-pilot airline executives, but with an ironic twist: Rickenbacker said that he paid his pilots to "fly" so no autopilot, while today airline execs pay millions for technology and expect it and not their pilots, to "fly". Both views badly misconstrue and therefore do not value the role of an airline pilot.
re pilot-monitored approaches, fully agree with your comments. I've done them, (DC9), they work well and you're right - they keep both pilots in the loop.
mm43;
Re the interesting notion regarding the wiper blades in the vertical position, yes I can see that happening; - the force of water momentarily washing over the nose as the airplane "dolphin-ed" forcing the blades to the vertical position.
The one thought that occurred when seeing them in that position in the original video (around page 3 or so) was, 'how odd that they would stop at that position (when electrical power was lost at impact)'.
But then, would even 15deg NU likely be sufficient to cause the nose to momentarily bury itself? Rather, would the airplane pancake, especially if the energy of the force upwards were expended in the breaking of the fuselage vice forcing the nose downward and into the water?
We'll know, (hopefully) soon enough whether the sound of the wipers is on the CVR.
PJ2
Yes, back on thread but thanks for your response. In re Rickenbacker, fascinating man and life. I suspect even men who seem larger-than-life like Rickenbacker could treat automation as the third, (or possibly even the second) pilot. I believe we see that thinking today in non-pilot airline executives, but with an ironic twist: Rickenbacker said that he paid his pilots to "fly" so no autopilot, while today airline execs pay millions for technology and expect it and not their pilots, to "fly". Both views badly misconstrue and therefore do not value the role of an airline pilot.
re pilot-monitored approaches, fully agree with your comments. I've done them, (DC9), they work well and you're right - they keep both pilots in the loop.
mm43;
Re the interesting notion regarding the wiper blades in the vertical position, yes I can see that happening; - the force of water momentarily washing over the nose as the airplane "dolphin-ed" forcing the blades to the vertical position.
The one thought that occurred when seeing them in that position in the original video (around page 3 or so) was, 'how odd that they would stop at that position (when electrical power was lost at impact)'.
But then, would even 15deg NU likely be sufficient to cause the nose to momentarily bury itself? Rather, would the airplane pancake, especially if the energy of the force upwards were expended in the breaking of the fuselage vice forcing the nose downward and into the water?
We'll know, (hopefully) soon enough whether the sound of the wipers is on the CVR.
PJ2