Lionair plane down in Bali.
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yowie
Sully's A320 remained in Normal Law throughout. Thus it had all the protections that were designed in, not just AOA.
He was telling the plane precisely where he wanted to go, and it took him there, wings level.
He was telling the plane precisely where he wanted to go, and it took him there, wings level.
Last edited by toffeez; 28th Apr 2013 at 20:00.
Back on topic, the DGCA has asked the NTSC (KNKT) to expedite the investigation and to have it done within 40 days, according to this news report in Bahasa.
Here it is in English:
Transportation Ministry asked the National Transportation Safety Committee (NTSC) to expedite the investigation and uncover the cause of the crash around Lion Air Ngurah Rai Airport, Bali, some time ago.
Corresponding provisions laid down, NTSC has been given 40 days to uncover the cause of a plane crash of the airline with the lion logo.
"We expect the NTSC could expedite the investigation, considering all the data and evidence in the field have been obtained such as the black box and the VCR or cockpit conversations (VCR)," said Director General of Air Transportation, Herry Bakti, met in Kuta, Bali, Tuesday (23/4 / 2013).
The DGCA until now have not been able to take action against the Low Cost Carrier airline.
On a separate note, Transportation Minister EE Mangindaan stated that all parties should be duly grateful because all passengers and crew members survived.
"I can not believe that all passengers survived, no one died and this because of the intervention of the Lord. We should be grateful" Mangindaan said in Nusa Dua.
Currently, Mangindaan said, all passengers have received their entitlements in accordance with what's applicable ie, receive compensation and insurance. The Airline is to fulfill its obligations to take care of all the wounded undergoing treatment until they are completely healed.
"Now it is processed every passenger obtain insurance from Prog Rp55 million ($5,500 USD) in PP 77 of 1992," said the minister from the Democratic Party.
Likewise, the luggage of the passengers, will also be replaced in accordance with the Airline, in accordance with Law No. 33 and 34. Mangindaan sure, all of the Lion Air passengers' obligations will be implemented.
He said he ordered the airline and aviation authorities to begin evaluating the readiness of pilots to the airport tower, and to pay attention to safety and security so that future incidents like this one of Lion Air does not happen again.
Corresponding provisions laid down, NTSC has been given 40 days to uncover the cause of a plane crash of the airline with the lion logo.
"We expect the NTSC could expedite the investigation, considering all the data and evidence in the field have been obtained such as the black box and the VCR or cockpit conversations (VCR)," said Director General of Air Transportation, Herry Bakti, met in Kuta, Bali, Tuesday (23/4 / 2013).
The DGCA until now have not been able to take action against the Low Cost Carrier airline.
On a separate note, Transportation Minister EE Mangindaan stated that all parties should be duly grateful because all passengers and crew members survived.
"I can not believe that all passengers survived, no one died and this because of the intervention of the Lord. We should be grateful" Mangindaan said in Nusa Dua.
Currently, Mangindaan said, all passengers have received their entitlements in accordance with what's applicable ie, receive compensation and insurance. The Airline is to fulfill its obligations to take care of all the wounded undergoing treatment until they are completely healed.
"Now it is processed every passenger obtain insurance from Prog Rp55 million ($5,500 USD) in PP 77 of 1992," said the minister from the Democratic Party.
Likewise, the luggage of the passengers, will also be replaced in accordance with the Airline, in accordance with Law No. 33 and 34. Mangindaan sure, all of the Lion Air passengers' obligations will be implemented.
He said he ordered the airline and aviation authorities to begin evaluating the readiness of pilots to the airport tower, and to pay attention to safety and security so that future incidents like this one of Lion Air does not happen again.
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yowieII writes:
The difference between the Hudson and this and many others...Sully was still FLYING the plane...
The difference between the Hudson and this and many others...Sully was still FLYING the plane...
misd-agin writes:
Sully or the AOA protection?
Sully or the AOA protection?
toffeez writes:
He was telling the plane precisely where he wanted to go, and it took him there, wings level.
He was telling the plane precisely where he wanted to go, and it took him there, wings level.
EE Mangindaan stated:
no one died and this because of the intervention of the Lord. We should be grateful...
no one died and this because of the intervention of the Lord. We should be grateful...
Last edited by rottenray; 29th Apr 2013 at 01:02.
In the news recently,
Lion Management been reported as making crew exceed FDT's due to:
Cant get enough pilots to crew all the new Aircraft coming in.
Lion Management been reported as making crew exceed FDT's due to:
Cant get enough pilots to crew all the new Aircraft coming in.
Last edited by kwaiyai; 29th Apr 2013 at 02:49.
repariit;
Thank you for the link to the NTSC website. We will see if they actually publish anything.
There is nothing for the Lion Air MD83 overrun accident November 30, 2004; in fact the entire 2004 archive (NTSC and the internet, generally), is missing - the year isn't even listed in the list of accident reports by year on the NTSC website.
We'll see what shows up around May 13th. Maybe things have matured a bit.
Thank you for the link to the NTSC website. We will see if they actually publish anything.
There is nothing for the Lion Air MD83 overrun accident November 30, 2004; in fact the entire 2004 archive (NTSC and the internet, generally), is missing - the year isn't even listed in the list of accident reports by year on the NTSC website.
We'll see what shows up around May 13th. Maybe things have matured a bit.
Last edited by PJ2; 29th Apr 2013 at 05:24. Reason: addressee
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ElitePilot
From the Airbus submission to the NTSB:
"Despite suffering bird(s) ingestion in both engines, the engines did not
suffer any uncontained failure but continued to deliver hydraulic and
electrical power (engine N°1 N2 was high enough, up to the re-start
attempt, for its IDG to remain on-line).
From the time Flight 1549 suffered birds ingestion into both engines until
it finally impacted the water, the Aircraft flight controls always remained
in Normal law with hydraulic power available.
The early APU start initiated by the Captain, allowed the Aircraft to
remain in Normal law during and after the engine N°1 re-start attempt."
"Despite suffering bird(s) ingestion in both engines, the engines did not
suffer any uncontained failure but continued to deliver hydraulic and
electrical power (engine N°1 N2 was high enough, up to the re-start
attempt, for its IDG to remain on-line).
From the time Flight 1549 suffered birds ingestion into both engines until
it finally impacted the water, the Aircraft flight controls always remained
in Normal law with hydraulic power available.
The early APU start initiated by the Captain, allowed the Aircraft to
remain in Normal law during and after the engine N°1 re-start attempt."
R4 door? That's a pretty big 738! 
While it's not recommended to open aft doors (as another poster mentioned) it's not an absolute no.
A number of factors may have come into the F/A decision- given the proximity to land, the depth of the water and the presence of boats in the water immediately after, s/he may have felt it necessary and wiser to get the pax out asap.
From what I can recall, the boarding of rafts out of the OWE and L/R1 doors procedure is designed after a ditching where the aircraft must be kept floating for as long as possible (for example, the Hudson or other fairly open water) Since the time required to 'float' would clearly have been less in this situation, then that may have come into play. Its possible the crew were under the impression the plane was on the reef and pax could 'wade' from there?
Of course the SOP is there for a reason but the manual/manufacturer's textbook cannot cover every possible situation, That's why there's a human sat in that jumpseat and not a Coke machine in the back galley.
Not to mention depending on the crew it may or may not be possible to keep from being trampled by the back half of the plane trying to get out. Of course most pax would not have bothered to read the safety card which clearly shows the aft doors NOT used in a ditch. FA are also taught that at some point you will need to make the call to get out- if it was open or be trampled to death then it may have been the only option at the time.
Sorry for the drift, just wanted to address those points from the FA viewpoint... carry on!
While it's not recommended to open aft doors (as another poster mentioned) it's not an absolute no.
A number of factors may have come into the F/A decision- given the proximity to land, the depth of the water and the presence of boats in the water immediately after, s/he may have felt it necessary and wiser to get the pax out asap.
From what I can recall, the boarding of rafts out of the OWE and L/R1 doors procedure is designed after a ditching where the aircraft must be kept floating for as long as possible (for example, the Hudson or other fairly open water) Since the time required to 'float' would clearly have been less in this situation, then that may have come into play. Its possible the crew were under the impression the plane was on the reef and pax could 'wade' from there?
Of course the SOP is there for a reason but the manual/manufacturer's textbook cannot cover every possible situation, That's why there's a human sat in that jumpseat and not a Coke machine in the back galley.
Not to mention depending on the crew it may or may not be possible to keep from being trampled by the back half of the plane trying to get out. Of course most pax would not have bothered to read the safety card which clearly shows the aft doors NOT used in a ditch. FA are also taught that at some point you will need to make the call to get out- if it was open or be trampled to death then it may have been the only option at the time.
Sorry for the drift, just wanted to address those points from the FA viewpoint... carry on!
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Rumour has it
I spoke with four Lion Air pilots today who each said the Captain forget to apply go around power. And that they regularly fly in excess of 130 hours per month (110 hour maximum). I reminded them that the penalty is a two year license suspension and a USD50,000.00 fine to the pilot. No mention of any penalty to the company!
Two if them asked "how do we keep track of our flight and duty hours?"
These were ALL pay to fly expats, right seat with CPL's.
Two if them asked "how do we keep track of our flight and duty hours?"
These were ALL pay to fly expats, right seat with CPL's.
floatboy;
Re, "they regularly fly in excess of 130 hours per month (110 hour maximum)"
Hard (stick) time?! Wow - not good.
If so, fatigue would almost certainly be a factor, (which, of course, would have to be investigated just like all other possibilities and explanations).
Sounds more and more like the One-Two-Go MD80 accident at Phuket.
Re, "they regularly fly in excess of 130 hours per month (110 hour maximum)"
Hard (stick) time?! Wow - not good.
If so, fatigue would almost certainly be a factor, (which, of course, would have to be investigated just like all other possibilities and explanations).
Sounds more and more like the One-Two-Go MD80 accident at Phuket.
Last edited by PJ2; 29th Apr 2013 at 14:39.
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toffeez
Airbus protections had nothing to do with the ditching success. The only protection which would work in that situation is angle of attack protection. That would not let the aircraft stall but the pilot did not have to raise the AoA in any case because he was flying the aircraft down. Had he raised the A oF A to Alfa max the rate of descent would have increased and also the tail would have hit the water first then it could have ended in disaster. In this case alternate law would not have made difference to the outcome as it could have been flown the same way.
Airbus protections had nothing to do with the ditching success. The only protection which would work in that situation is angle of attack protection. That would not let the aircraft stall but the pilot did not have to raise the AoA in any case because he was flying the aircraft down. Had he raised the A oF A to Alfa max the rate of descent would have increased and also the tail would have hit the water first then it could have ended in disaster. In this case alternate law would not have made difference to the outcome as it could have been flown the same way.
Last edited by vilas; 29th Apr 2013 at 14:45.
The aircraft originated from Palu (PLW) in central Sulawesi with a scheduled departure time of 0605 so "sign on" time for the crew would have been 0505. The first sector was to Balikpapan (BPN) in Kalimantan, followed by Banjarmasin (BDJ), before heading to Bandung (BDO). In Bandung, the scheduled departure time for Denpasar was 1020, however, that day, Lion combined all three flights from Bandung to Denpasar in to one, that being JT 904 departing Bandung at 1200 with a scheduled arrival time at Denpasar of 1445.
The time that the aircraft impacted the water was reported to be 1510, which meant that the crew had been on duty for 10 hours when the accident occurred. Although this in itself is still well within the legal daily limits, you would still need to consider and analyze the flight and duty times of the crew prior to the accident to see if adequate rest had infact been given to the crew.
smiling_monkey;
Re, "you would still need to consider and analyze the flight and duty times of the crew prior to the accident to see if adequate rest had infact been given to the crew. "
Yes, exactly. Flying 130hrs stick time in a month is certainly conducive to long-term fatigue, (as opposed to the occasional really long duty day). A ten-hour day is normally a non-issue even in demanding conditions but not in a regime where monthly stick time is regularly scheduled to the 100hr+ range.
Re, "you would still need to consider and analyze the flight and duty times of the crew prior to the accident to see if adequate rest had infact been given to the crew. "
Yes, exactly. Flying 130hrs stick time in a month is certainly conducive to long-term fatigue, (as opposed to the occasional really long duty day). A ten-hour day is normally a non-issue even in demanding conditions but not in a regime where monthly stick time is regularly scheduled to the 100hr+ range.
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What I heard and know.. Lion will always be short of qualified pilots, Captains and First Officers.. most resign after a few years.. most are sick and tired of flying 110+hrs working 6 days on and 1 day off with a min rest period of 9hrs with 12 office days annual leave, NO ID travel, no social life and fighting chronic fatigue etc.
Except for some expats and the malaysian pilots have the golden salary package..
9000usd nett for 90+hrs 12weeks on, 2 weeks off with ID travel etc.
Pilots tell me...that the worst thing is that Lion are happy to let you work pass 110+hrs. Most pilots are happy to work pass 110+hrs because of the "so-called OT pay" i heard that over 110+hrs the increase in pay is 120% of flt pay, after 115hrs -130% , 120hrs -140%... if you get call to fly on your day off.. 100usd for captain and 77usd for FO the inconvenience.
What I learnt is that Batik Air pilots are from Lion.. they resign from Lion and join Batik..hopefully with better pay..
Except for some expats and the malaysian pilots have the golden salary package..
9000usd nett for 90+hrs 12weeks on, 2 weeks off with ID travel etc. Pilots tell me...that the worst thing is that Lion are happy to let you work pass 110+hrs. Most pilots are happy to work pass 110+hrs because of the "so-called OT pay" i heard that over 110+hrs the increase in pay is 120% of flt pay, after 115hrs -130% , 120hrs -140%... if you get call to fly on your day off.. 100usd for captain and 77usd for FO the inconvenience.
What I learnt is that Batik Air pilots are from Lion.. they resign from Lion and join Batik..hopefully with better pay..
Last edited by jetjockey696; 29th Apr 2013 at 18:17.
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Lion Guns for Airport Rail Contract
The company behind low-cost carrier Lion Air plans to invest Rp 20 trillion ($2.1 billion) to build an express railway line to Soekarno-Hatta International Airport, improving transportation links between Jakarta and the Tanggerang aviation hub.
“If the government allows Lion Air Group in as investors, we would be very happy,” Rusdi Kirana, Lion Mentari Airlines’s president director, was quoted as saying by Investor Daily.
The national government had previously announced plans to build a 30 kilometer railway line linking the airport with Manggarai station in South Jakarta. The link has been extended by 15 kilometers to Halim Perdanakusuma Airport in East Jakarta. The government is also discussing plans to convert Halim airport into the main terminal for low-cost airlines.
“We are ready in terms of financing,” Rusdi said, adding that overseas banks would back Lion in the project. In 2011, the Export-Import Bank of the United States helped Lion purchase 230 Boeing 737s for a listing price of $21.7 billion.
The Transportation Ministry said it received an expression of interest from the airline two months ago, and is now looking for other investors to bid.
“Lion has an interest in servicing its customers … but this is also a huge project,” said Tundjung Inderawan, director general for rail transportation at the ministry.
Sarana Multi Infrastruktur, a government infrastructure financing arm, is conducting a feasibility study for the railway project. Should all plans go ahead, the express railway project will be ready for tender by early next year.
The express train project is one of two seeking to link Soekarno-Hatta with downtown Jakarta. Another proposed line will detour through Tangerang.
That project is backed by Railink, a joint venture of state-controlled airport operator Angkasa Pura II and train operator Kereta Api Indonesia. It is expected to be finished in 2015, behind its initial target of August 2014.
Established in 2000, Lion is now the largest privately held airline in Indonesia and is expanding its business from the airline industry to property.
Lion is set to open a 170-room hotel in Manado, North Sulawesi, this year.
On Thursday, Lion launched Batik Air, which will provide full service to passengers, including food and in-flight entertainment. Lion is seeking to fly Batik Air services to Australia.
Lion in March launched Malindo Airlines, which is in partnership with Malaysia’s National Aerospace and Defence Industries (NADI) to service Malaysia.
Lion signed a deal worth $24 billion — recorded as the most valuable commercial order in history — with France’s Airbus on March 18, ordering 234 jets to be delivered from 2014 to 2026.
Jakarta globe.. 29/04/13
“If the government allows Lion Air Group in as investors, we would be very happy,” Rusdi Kirana, Lion Mentari Airlines’s president director, was quoted as saying by Investor Daily.
The national government had previously announced plans to build a 30 kilometer railway line linking the airport with Manggarai station in South Jakarta. The link has been extended by 15 kilometers to Halim Perdanakusuma Airport in East Jakarta. The government is also discussing plans to convert Halim airport into the main terminal for low-cost airlines.
“We are ready in terms of financing,” Rusdi said, adding that overseas banks would back Lion in the project. In 2011, the Export-Import Bank of the United States helped Lion purchase 230 Boeing 737s for a listing price of $21.7 billion.
The Transportation Ministry said it received an expression of interest from the airline two months ago, and is now looking for other investors to bid.
“Lion has an interest in servicing its customers … but this is also a huge project,” said Tundjung Inderawan, director general for rail transportation at the ministry.
Sarana Multi Infrastruktur, a government infrastructure financing arm, is conducting a feasibility study for the railway project. Should all plans go ahead, the express railway project will be ready for tender by early next year.
The express train project is one of two seeking to link Soekarno-Hatta with downtown Jakarta. Another proposed line will detour through Tangerang.
That project is backed by Railink, a joint venture of state-controlled airport operator Angkasa Pura II and train operator Kereta Api Indonesia. It is expected to be finished in 2015, behind its initial target of August 2014.
Established in 2000, Lion is now the largest privately held airline in Indonesia and is expanding its business from the airline industry to property.
Lion is set to open a 170-room hotel in Manado, North Sulawesi, this year.
On Thursday, Lion launched Batik Air, which will provide full service to passengers, including food and in-flight entertainment. Lion is seeking to fly Batik Air services to Australia.
Lion in March launched Malindo Airlines, which is in partnership with Malaysia’s National Aerospace and Defence Industries (NADI) to service Malaysia.
Lion signed a deal worth $24 billion — recorded as the most valuable commercial order in history — with France’s Airbus on March 18, ordering 234 jets to be delivered from 2014 to 2026.
Jakarta globe.. 29/04/13
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I do not know what was the reason for the accident.So i am not qualified to judge.
My personal opinion is, if i would have been their trainer, it would not have happened.
I am ready to receive flak.
My personal opinion is, if i would have been their trainer, it would not have happened.
I am ready to receive flak.
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Fondue anyone?
There's a reason why pilots exceeding the maximum 110 flight hours per month do not have their licenses revoked. Many "investors" and financiers of Lion Air are the same people who's job it is to uphold the law. As with most things in Indonesia, the important thing is to appear to be doing something, not actually doing it.
If Pilots are being paid "overtime rates" then there's a paper trail confirming their conscious breach of regs (and reward for doing so), and the operators coercion to do so.
I have flown with Indonesian pilots who have never stalled an aircraft, and therefore have never learned the signs of an approach to a stall, let alone recovery from one, including Instructors. Why? Because they were never taught it, their Instructors never taught it, and so on. If it's really quiet and all you can hear is wind, it's unlikely the thing's going to go up. Forgot something? Oh yeah... TOO late.
How is it that an airliner requiring two crew, can be "legally" operated by one qualified and experienced crew and one who is NOT. If the Captain is incapacitated, as happens, who's going to get the bird back on the ground? The new CPL who's still mesmerised by all the pretty lights and funny sounds?
Fatigue, training, ego, culture, under-qualified and under-experienced co-pilots (passengers). Throw it all up in the air and what lands is what we've got. Not a swiss cheese scenario, a FONDUE!
If Pilots are being paid "overtime rates" then there's a paper trail confirming their conscious breach of regs (and reward for doing so), and the operators coercion to do so.
I have flown with Indonesian pilots who have never stalled an aircraft, and therefore have never learned the signs of an approach to a stall, let alone recovery from one, including Instructors. Why? Because they were never taught it, their Instructors never taught it, and so on. If it's really quiet and all you can hear is wind, it's unlikely the thing's going to go up. Forgot something? Oh yeah... TOO late.
How is it that an airliner requiring two crew, can be "legally" operated by one qualified and experienced crew and one who is NOT. If the Captain is incapacitated, as happens, who's going to get the bird back on the ground? The new CPL who's still mesmerised by all the pretty lights and funny sounds?
Fatigue, training, ego, culture, under-qualified and under-experienced co-pilots (passengers). Throw it all up in the air and what lands is what we've got. Not a swiss cheese scenario, a FONDUE!