Lionair plane down in Bali.

[BOAC]

like the PF called for flap 15 but forgot the related call for GA thrust, PF didn't notice....

- not the way any PF I have ever known in the west would do it? Just 'Call for GA thrust' with hands on levers? Is that the way in the Far East? Who handles the throttles, PF or PNF?

[philipat]

That rumour that the FO selected Flaps 15 was never attributed to any source, other than, as I recall "An insider" so probably has little credibility. Besides, how would anyone outside the cockpit know what actually happened?

[framer]

Yeah I've never heard of a PF "calling for go around thrust" either. If you're PF and you want thrust you make it happen one way or another.

[A37575]

Yeah I've never heard of a PF "calling for go around thrust" either. If you're PF and you want thrust you make it happen one way or another.

28th November 1979. A DC10 of Air New Zealand on a sighteeing flight over Antarctia struck the lower slopes of Mount Erebus, an active Antarctic volcano. The aircraft was at about 2000 feet flying at 230 knots. It was later thought they were in white-out weather conditions. The crew acted promptly to a GPWS pull-up warning but time and topography was against them and the impact instantly killed all 257 on board.
From the CVR read-out when the GPWS sounded, the flight engineer called 500 and 400 feet heights above ground level at the same time the captain called "Go around power, please"

[BOAC]

Not too relevant, A - the engineer sets power I believe? We are talking 737 here, not DC10.

[smiling monkey]

Originally Posted by philipat

That rumour that the FO selected Flaps 15 was never attributed to any source, other than, as I recall "An insider" so probably has little credibility. Besides, how would anyone outside the cockpit know what actually happened?

Obviously close friends of the crew were told their version of events and this then spreads like a domino effect to outer circles. Rumour network in Indo airlines is large; from the trivial who slept with who the night before, to who failed their sim check ... all spreads like wild fire ...

[philipat]

So you are saying that the FO and PIC would openly discuss how they had just successfully flown a perfectly serviceable aircraft into the reef? I would find that difficult to believe, even if Lion's lawyers had not silenced them, at least outside the investigation itself.

I'm sure that we won't have to wait 4 months for more details of the CVR and DFDR data to become known.

[framer]

From the CVR read-out when the GPWS sounded, the flight engineer called 500 and 400 feet heights above ground level at the same time the captain called "Go around power, please"

Too true A37575, it's been a while since I read the copy of the royal commission that I have in my office but I'm sure you're right.
I have to agree with BOAC though that it's not particularly relevant now days.
The standard call in both the 737 operators I've flown for is "Going round flap 15" the PF pushes the TOGA button and advances the thrust levers ( no communication with the PM about that) while pitching up to about 15 degrees, the next call is " positive rate" by the PM and then " gear up" by the PF.
I doubt Lion had an SOP where the PF called for thrust, it would be unique in my experience.

[BOAC]

There are only two, very basic actions required in a 2-crew go-round. Raise the nose and apply g/a power, simultaneously. The a/c will then climb away. All the other bits, some button-pushing, some performance related, are 'extras' and totally irrelevant if the first two actions are not done.

[smiling monkey]

So you are saying that the FO and PIC would openly discuss how they had just successfully flown a perfectly serviceable aircraft into the reef?

In the last three years that I've been flying in this part of the world, there have been many incidents and a few accidents some involving friends, or friends of friends and yes, of course they talk about it to their close friends. To think otherwise suggest that you are far removed from the industry here.

[B737900er]

Regarding the go around thrust call

So lets say your flying the aircraft as Mr Boeing asks I.e manual thrust when the AP is off, You initiate a go-around calling go around flaps 15 simultaneously pressing TOGA and advancing the thrust levers.

You might not necessarily have go around thrust, you could be 5% short- especially if you didn't configure your seat correctly.

I was picked up in the sim from a TRE regarding this issue. So, when I brief regarding a go around, I mention the go around actions and to verify go around thrust is set, once a positive climb is established call for the gear to be raised.

It is the PM job to verify the actions have been carried out correctly and a common one is verifying go around thrust is set. We rely heavily on automation, so when we are finally flying the thing ourselves we forget its manual thrust and pressing TOGA will not give you the thrust required if you don't push forward! (If the speed is off then TOGA will push the levers forward).

[de facto]

You might not necessarily have go around thrust, you could be 5% short- especially if you didn't configure your seat correctly.

Or too short of an arm..

[B737900er]

Short arms

Well this is Asia we are talking about

[de facto]

And if it were in the USA,we d be missing 5 degrees of pitch up attitude?

[B737900er]

With the belly of some of my colleagues then yes.

[philipat]

@smiling monkey

My essential point was that this rumour, at face value, has less credibility than many. It came out very early, at a time when I would have thought that the Captain and FO still had more pressing matters than gossiping with "Close friends" about mistakes they had made, resulting in an accident.

Should you have additional information in "The Jungle". please elucidate.

Fortunately, as luck would have it, in this case they were still alive to be able to exercise whatever judgement they saw fit.

[repariit]

My essential point was that this rumour, at face value, has less credibility than many.

Whether it is true or not will come out later. If true, that fact plus the reports from surfers that they did not hear the approaching aircraft with either engine making TOGA EPR noises, explains how it came to be in the bay.

[philipat]

That may very well be correct but unsourced rumours and other speculation don't really contribute much and, ultimately, are disrespectful to the crew in terms of both their airmanship AND the way that they MIGHT have conducted themselves after the event. At this stage, we simply don't know. Might it not be better just to wait for the data?

In such situations, Human nature suggests that it would be normal to find excuses, not admit errors, which is why I find the "Confession to close friends" explanation for an unsubstantiated rumour so unpersuasive. Which might be why the Captain was quoted as having said, to the effect, the rain was so heavy that it felt like the aircraft was just being pushed down beyond my control until I found myself on the reef.

[philipat]

And, incidentally, I don't know if you have ever done any surfing but:

1. It requires great focus and concentration on a wave. Especially with a Reef break.
2. The surf makes a HUGE noise.
3. Every surfer knows that if there are TS around, get out and hang in the Bar.

Many inconsistencies, as always. And also as always, the Swiss cheese slices alignment, as yet, is unexplained.

[philipat]

@bral

Actually, I do believe that the accident has already been very well explained herein, should you have read all 612 posts.

If not, either what are your ideas or goodnight.