Lionair plane down in Bali.

[PJ2]

Going by memory, sorry. Yogyakarta, thanks.

The B734 overrun - non-stabilized approach.

[philipat]

PJ2

I wasn't sure if you were referring to the Garuda approach into Jogjakarta (JOG) or the Lion approach into Bali (Which is a first here). I assumed the former because in the latter we simply do not yet know the circumstances. As you would be the first to point out.

[jetjockey696]

With all the crash and burns in Indonesia, I think the worst is still the Garuda Crash of flight 152 killed 238 people.

Flight 152.."The aircraft [PK-GAI], arriving from Jakarta, was cleared for an ILS approach to Medan runway 05 and was flying on a 316° heading on Airway 585/W12. Having descended to 3000ft the crew was instructed to turn left heading 240° for vectoring to intercept the runway 05 ILS. At 1:28pm local time, the flight was instructed to continue on a 215° heading and descend to 2000ft. At 1:30 ATC directed the flight to turn right heading 046 and report when established on the localizer. Confusion the part of the air traffic controller followed over whether GA152 was turning left or right. Just 10 seconds after confirming the right turn, the Airbus crashed in a wooded area, broke up and burst into flames. The wreckage covered a 150x75m area near the village of Pancur Batu, which is located at an elevation of 3000 feet above mean sea level. The accident happened 18 miles short of Medan Airport. The region was affected by smog from forest fires, and visibility was reported to be only 600-800m".

AirDisaster.com 1997

[jetjockey696]

For those who miss out on the Garuda Yogyakarta accident.. here is the full report..

http://www.dephub.go.id/knkt/ntsc_av...%20Release.pdf

[lomapaseo]

The FDR & CVR have been out of the bay for almost a week now. By now, shouldn't some journalist have asked the NTSB team, led by Senior Air Safety Investigator Dennis Jones, or the Indonesian authorities, where they were sent for examination, and reported on when the work would be done?

the NTSB is an assisting agancey not the agency in charge and as such should not comment on the course of the investigation without permission from the lead agency.

Typical early comments might be of the nature of the team makeup on the NTSB side and their approx travel schedule.

Keep in mind the release of any information is soley on FYI status basis and not necessarily for armchair internet investigators to fortify their theories.

It's like reading posts on PPrune, you have to read between the lines of all posters based on past experience

[framer]

PJ2,

Very likely - I'd welcome a discussion on that sometime as my experience is limited to airline ops.

I'm keen as mustard as I always learn something from discussions like that ( and this one for that matter) so I'll crank one up when this thread has run it's course.
Cheers

[philipat]

CRM

I think that cutting through the cultural biases remains one of the largest challenges. In the case of Indonesia, and this is off-topic so in no way am I suggesting that this is in any way related to Lion, the phenomenon is known as "Asal Bapak Senang". Literally, "Keep the Boss Happy". In other words, don't challenge your seniors and don't EVER bring bad news which might cause the Boss to "Lose Face" or have to feel embarrassed or compromised.

This also explains problems in the educational system in many countries, because it is not the done thing to "Challenge" the teacher by asking questions. Just shut up and listen. That does not make for enlightened students.

"Etiquette" is one aspect, but that is also culturally biased because Etiquette differs in different cultures. Finding CLEAR ways to cut through cultural biases and distinguish between "Responsibility" and "Disrespect" for the vast majority of the world's population is a major challenge for CRM. And other things.

These types of cultural biases, and also a culture of corruption within which anything "Bisa Diatur" (Can be arranged - for a price, of course), as alluded to in an earlier post, do not make good bed fellows with aviation safety.

[jetjockey696]

Philpat is correct... the culture in Asia is not too lose face.. from the employee to to employers. one want to LOSE damn face, or show weakness... perfect example the japanese, korean and china working environment... dont lose face.. obey your seniors, even they lead you to death...

There are rumours that the FO on that flight, was from the famous MSD agent..P2F agent..

here is the latest news from a ppruner (Jay71)... about secrets of MSD..nearly everything is true about MSD

"Those who are interested in joining the Lion Air program through MSD Aviation,

Well MSD aviation recruits pilots who holds a valid CPL multi-IR for a type-rating and a job placement in Lion Air , The executive director Mr. Siddharth Kasana and Director operations Mr Kush Bhasin operates the company operations in New Delhi and Jakarta, Indonesia . MSD aviation have placed around 90 pilots in lion air till now , both the directors are completely money minded they just want their monthly share in their hands for that they will issue forged Noc's which were never issued from the Indian DGCA & when you submit your documents for the renewal of IR rating they would tempered your license without letting you know about any sort of bull**** that they did on it ,they will make an entry on your logbook as a sim check & they would even make a fake sim check report and all that bull**** gets submitted in DGCA and by the time the applicant comes to DGCA to asked about his license , he gets all sort of bull**** in his file , the fake sim check reports , fake Noc's , fake logbook entry's , Since its a MSD'S policy in which they states that they will do all the documentation work related to DGCA the pilots working for the company gets their IR renewed with a fake sim check reports and MSD has paid a good amount of bribe in DGCA to get the things done without any verifications.

MSD aviation states that Lion Training Centre is a TRTO and of course everything can happen in a place like India where you just have to pay good amount of money to get the things done

Lion training centre isn't a TRTO so therefore even if a pilot does a sim check on those sims which ar placed in LTC even then also it won't count for IR renewal & the pilot who recently crashed an aircraft in Bali is an Indian , who flew for months on a fake NOC which was never issued by the DGCA and apparently the pilot doesn't even know from where did he did his last sim check for the purpose of IR renewal because he submitted his licenses to MSD aviation and Mr siddharth Kasana & Mr. Loveraj Singh made forged sim check reports under the knowledge of these pilots , few of them who were against all this forgery has already logged a complaint against MSD aviation soon there will be CBI knocking the DGCA doors again , they have also tempered a license of one of the pilots who was working for their company when the pilot came to India and visited the DGCA , he got to know his file has been lost , In the end he got to know that the training documents of B737 which were directly send to MSD aviation from the TRTO for the purpose of B737 endorsement were never submitted to DGCA in fact
Mr siddharth kasana tempered his license, the pilot has already logged a complain and ending this matter by filing a court case against (MSD Aviation Mr. Siddharth kasana, loveraj Singh , Kush bhasin)in Delhi Court

MSD aviation did this because they're earning 2000$/month from each pilots salary, somewhere about 90 pilots are currently placed by MSD aviation,
That comes out to be around 1,80,000$/month which further comes to be around 1crore INR/month and that's nothing because they are charging 50,000$ for type-rating of B737 which actually costs around 20-25k , so the rest 25k is charged for the conversion of CPL into Indonesian CPL and all those fake promises which ar still pending since 2011 , they have sent around 10 batches till now ,

So they is earning around minimum 3,00,000$/month ,

So if a pilots sits in Jakarta doesn't fly for lion air because of his expired IR then there is a problem for MSD since MSD have leased out these pilots to lion and lion can only complaint to MSD about it , MSD therefore created fake sim check reports followed by bribe to DGCA officers who approves a renewal of IR without doing any verifications and if lion wants to discontinue the contract with MSD aviation because of the pilots who weren't flying then who will lose 3,00,000$/month

I hope you all are smart enough

Well guys don't go through MSD aviation it doesn't matter in which ever airline he's placing you , don't go for it because at the end of the day it's not worth it

The criminal case proceeding will take place in few months , in which they will be prove guilty , apparently Mr Kush bhasin is so scared of the court case that he refused to be a part of MSD

But Mr sk thinks he is the smartest person living on the planet earth
In past few years he has already been involved in criminal activities
he's doesn't know how to get out of this one , from past 4 months he hasn't paid any salaries to pilots working under him. Is That what you pay for? "

[philipat]

@jetjockey696

I have NO axe to grind with Lion, any other carrier or any particular country. My post was purely philosophical in both nature and content. And was directed entirely at CRM issues, which were already a diversion from the Main Topic of this Thread.

[PJ2]

philipat;

Re, "I think that cutting through the cultural biases remains one of the largest challenges."

Yes, I think that is a realistic statement which is the reason I was careful to describe "breeding and manners" as a "1950's western culture" notion. That acknowledges that cultural biases exist, "the west" being no different.

You're right also about the context of this diversion (while we wait for anything new from the NTSC, etc) into CRM issues being philosophical and that is the way I understood it.

In fact it is not possible to connect "CRM issues" to Lion Air in this instance because we know absolutely nothing about what was said in the cockpit and what the flight data is.

PJ2

[SOPS]

So I read it, now i am really worried..260 knots at 10 miles..and the investigation does not say much about it...those Garuda Captains must really be net to God

[captjns]

Jetjockey696. What does your rant about MSD have to do with the crash in Bali?

[repariit]

Anyway, enough of a hijack, can anyone come up with a good reason that this was not a repeat of the Turkish accident in Schphol? Radio Altimeter fails, thrust levers come back, crew didn't notice because hands weren't on the thrust levers, or they didn't notice as they were hot and levers were at idle already.

A post about midway through this thread reported "inside information" that the F/O (PNF) set flaps 15 when the Capt had not called for it.

[framer]

Yeah I read that but was more after technical information on why this crash was different from the Turkish one. Same aircraft type, ended up in the same place relative to the runway, both low energy etc.

[A37575]

Yeah I read that but was more after technical information on why this crash was different from the Turkish one. Same aircraft type, ended up in the same place relative to the runway, both low energy etc.

Let's cut to the chase in this accident. The aeroplane had a set of throttles that worked if you pushed them. It had a control wheel and two rudder/brake pedals. It had three artificial horizons, three altimeters and three ASI's. And it had two windscreen wipers that don't clear the windscreens in heavy rain. But presumably it had rain repellant.

Short final, runs into blinding rain (happens on busy freeways too) and loses sight of the runway. Happens every minute somewhere in the world. Splurges into the sea for some reason. Should have been a straight forward go-around. Isn't that what instrument ratings are all about?

A low altitude go-around isn't all that complicated when you have those basic controls and instruments if you know what you are doing. . It certainly shouldn't be; although TOGA buttons and other automatic goodies like flight directors can often makes things far more complicated than is really needed.

On the face of it, and at the risk of not knowing yet what really happened between the two pilots in the Lion Air accident, it seems to me that current simulator training syllabae needs to go back to the basics of learning to crawl before you can walk. Re-currency cyclic training in the simulator needs to be taken back to pure and simple basic instrument flying on raw data and no automatics until the pilot is certified competent in those skills. And that must include low altitude go-arounds as a surprise factor.

Only then should practice at use of the automatics and their application to sophisticated instrument approaches and their go-around procedures be made. It seems to me that ethnic cultural mores and and the demonstrated absence of pure instrument flying skills, make dangerous bedfellows.

[framer]

I would love to see that. My IF skills have deteriorated with the increased use of automatics. If our sim sessions involved 45 mins of bare bones IF flying ( no automatics or flight directors ) it would A) be great fun and B) remind everyone of which information is critical and which is " nice to have".
I would bet that many these days couldn't tell you what the required power and pitch is for a given situation. Our sim sessions are so full of box ticking exercises required by the regulator that to even get them done in the time available is a challenge.over the years they keep adding things ( TCAS RA's, RNP AR departures/ arrivals, EDTO scenarios, PRM breakouts etc) , but have the sim sessions got longer to accommodate this?
Nup.

[smiling monkey]

According to this news report on local Indonesian TV, the results of the investigation by the NTSC (KNKT) should be available in 4 months time. The reason for the delay is due to the fact that the investigators also have to report to Boeing their findings.

Hasil Investigasi Kecelakaan Lion Air di Bali 4 Bulan Lagi

That's one thing that I've found impressive about Indonesian crash investigations. They're usually done quickly especially high profile accidents such as this. I guess they have a lot of experience doing crash investigations, hence the quick findings and reporting.

[India Four Two]

I think news report would be better translated as " must be reported to the United States as the state of manufacture". Presumably this a reference to a request for comments from interested parties prior to final publication.

[BOAC]

Regarding this 'Flap15' rumour - maybe the co-pilot wanted a g/a and the Captain did not? Perhaps the co-pilot had been reading PPRune where I believe there had been suggestions in the past that the thing to do was either just raise the gear or select g/a flap?

In any case, if at Vref+5??, changing to Flap 15 would not cause an uncontrollable sink due to Boeing's manouevre speed schedule (power would help....). Far from ideal, mind you!

[Mikehotel152]

Stranger things have happened, BOAC, so it's possible. I've heard reports from the line of FOs doing stranger things after being empowered by modern CRM. But the Far East, where the cockpit gradients are reputed to be steeper than in the west, it would seem very unlikely. Personally, I suspect the final report will contain a few surprises - possibly something disappointing, like the PF called for flap 15 but forgot the related call for GA thrust, PF didn't notice and then the cows got bigger.