Age 70 for international pilots?
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: South of France
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lambourne
It would appear that you have not taken your medication today lambourne.
or alternatively, I feel that you should pay a visit to your nearest psychiatrist,
you certainly need help
or alternatively, I feel that you should pay a visit to your nearest psychiatrist,
you certainly need help
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: San Antonio, TX USA
Age: 62
Posts: 139
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you spent the same amount of time getting your necessary hours as you spend being highly disrespectful of your pilot elders, you'd be far happier with a more developed skill set than you have now.
Don't want to work hard enough to be a well rounded and safe pilot, quit.
Don't want to work hard enough to be a well rounded and safe pilot, quit.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: US
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
These guys have caused great harm to many. Respect is earned, not a right of passage. These over 60 pilots have in no way earned respect. For the most part they like to think they are experts on everything from flying to painting a fence (even if they have never held a paintbrush). Longevity does not make you any more brilliant. Your ability to continue learning and staying abreast of the industry improves your knowledge. Not sitting in the left seat and taking the middle break.
Recently we were told to follow a certain species of Airbus. There were several varieties and the gummer in the left seat hadn't a clue which was which, even though they were all different. Of course on the crew bus ride to the airport he spoke as an expert on all things with wings, wheels, spinners, mast and powered or not. Yet, when his superior knowledge was needed he drew a blank stare. Followed by the "well they all look the same, how am I to know!". Nice job skipper. You really EARNED that extra 5 years !
These pilots have set an example of selfishness and everyman for themselves. By not offering to enjoin them in any niceities I am just living by the example they set.
If someone comes into your home and robs your family do you help them carry the loot to the getaway car? Hardly, that is the reason I dont support the thieves of age 65.
If you are still flying past 60, you are not liked by your co-workers. You are tolerated at best. These are the cold hard facts. If you don't want to accept such, then it is your prerogative, reality is elusive to the over 60 pilots. Just don't be surprised when no one signs your retirement photo in operations. There will be no "good luck" and " we will miss you". More of a "finally!" than anything else.
Recently we were told to follow a certain species of Airbus. There were several varieties and the gummer in the left seat hadn't a clue which was which, even though they were all different. Of course on the crew bus ride to the airport he spoke as an expert on all things with wings, wheels, spinners, mast and powered or not. Yet, when his superior knowledge was needed he drew a blank stare. Followed by the "well they all look the same, how am I to know!". Nice job skipper. You really EARNED that extra 5 years !
These pilots have set an example of selfishness and everyman for themselves. By not offering to enjoin them in any niceities I am just living by the example they set.
If someone comes into your home and robs your family do you help them carry the loot to the getaway car? Hardly, that is the reason I dont support the thieves of age 65.
If you are still flying past 60, you are not liked by your co-workers. You are tolerated at best. These are the cold hard facts. If you don't want to accept such, then it is your prerogative, reality is elusive to the over 60 pilots. Just don't be surprised when no one signs your retirement photo in operations. There will be no "good luck" and " we will miss you". More of a "finally!" than anything else.
Last edited by lambourne; 12th Aug 2010 at 17:19.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: South of France
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lambourne
Old pilots are still subjected to regular 'comp' checks and strict bi-annual medical checks. No other profession puts its skills up for scrutiny the same as pilots, this should be the criteria, and not the rantings of disgruntled young pilots. A relaxed cockpit is a safe cockpit. I would have hated to fly with you with such chip on your shoulder. Having said that, I do not agree with the proposal to extend the licence to 70.
This is a very interesting discussion. I am not quite 70 but I have just recently been made two offers to come out of retirement should the rules be changed.
What are the youngsters doing wrong I wonder?
What are the youngsters doing wrong I wonder?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: US
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The line check is a laugh. They have over 60 pilots checking over 60 pilots. I've seen a few of these first hand. The over 60 check airman adamantly swearing we should be flying variable cost index Mach in MNPS airspace, where a Mach number was assigned. Pointed out the "mach number technique" from our manual. He said the book was wrong. That resulted in specific verbiage being added to the manual to state what myself and the other FO were telling him. This interpretation of his was his only, but he was over 60 and stopped learning and started creating SOP. This line check included several gross SOP errors by the gummer getting the check ride. Yet, he was given a pass.
The FAA medical is hardly a thorough evaluation. There are numerous, "cough, you pass" doctors collecting $100 bucks a pop. What is the reason to down someone? These docs want the income. We have pilots so fat they can hardly walk to the gate without breaking out in a full workout sweat. Most just keel over and the case of the CAL pilot recently some do it while at the controls.
In a bit of irony, atop this page for me was an advertisement for "senior housing". Must be targeted advertising!
The FAA medical is hardly a thorough evaluation. There are numerous, "cough, you pass" doctors collecting $100 bucks a pop. What is the reason to down someone? These docs want the income. We have pilots so fat they can hardly walk to the gate without breaking out in a full workout sweat. Most just keel over and the case of the CAL pilot recently some do it while at the controls.
In a bit of irony, atop this page for me was an advertisement for "senior housing". Must be targeted advertising!
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: US
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would have hated to fly with you with such chip on your shoulder.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: US
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you spent the same amount of time getting your necessary hours as you spend being highly disrespectful of your pilot elders, you'd be far happier with a more developed skill set than you have now.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with lambourne.
PPRUNE is now getting dominated by retired pilots who can't let go, and hoping to get a leg back in.
This new (?) breed of pilots are pocketing a nice pension from their previous airlines, and at the same time driving down T&C's at their new outfits.
Double pay and straight into the mountain we go!
Sorry guys, it's time to say hello to your wife again. We don't want you. We don't need you. We don't like you. You are the oldest f@rt in the outfit, and you stink! To the rest of us!
PPRUNE is now getting dominated by retired pilots who can't let go, and hoping to get a leg back in.
This new (?) breed of pilots are pocketing a nice pension from their previous airlines, and at the same time driving down T&C's at their new outfits.
Double pay and straight into the mountain we go!
Sorry guys, it's time to say hello to your wife again. We don't want you. We don't need you. We don't like you. You are the oldest f@rt in the outfit, and you stink! To the rest of us!
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Polymer Records
Posts: 597
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In a perfect world,where everyone was treated fairly, the sun shone everyday and we acheived World Peace, then ability to fly would be based purely on a sound medical and last check ride, not on age.
However...
Surely the whole point of a fixed retirement age is to retire pilots whist they are still fit and competant so as to avoid pilots flying whilst unfit and incompetant until they finally failed medicals / check rides. One-size-fits-all isn't perfect but is the best compromise out there.
You've earned your retirement, enjoy it and hand over control to the next generation.
However...
Surely the whole point of a fixed retirement age is to retire pilots whist they are still fit and competant so as to avoid pilots flying whilst unfit and incompetant until they finally failed medicals / check rides. One-size-fits-all isn't perfect but is the best compromise out there.
You've earned your retirement, enjoy it and hand over control to the next generation.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Polymer Records
Posts: 597
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Take a 90 year old (retired!) Spitfire pilot and member of The Few.
I have huge respect for him, but would I want him flying my family down to Spain? At what point does he change from Moustachioed Ace to Retired Hero? Would the authorities be able to determine the exact moment of when he had seen better days? Would it be fair on all other members of the profession for him to continue rather than freeing up the bottom rung of the ladder? Would he have been able to become the experienced pilot that he was if someone up the ladder had obstinately refused to make way?
I have huge respect for him, but would I want him flying my family down to Spain? At what point does he change from Moustachioed Ace to Retired Hero? Would the authorities be able to determine the exact moment of when he had seen better days? Would it be fair on all other members of the profession for him to continue rather than freeing up the bottom rung of the ladder? Would he have been able to become the experienced pilot that he was if someone up the ladder had obstinately refused to make way?
Just to let you know I am retired and actually the only complaint I have is there is not enough hours in the day to do what I have always wanted to do.
If you want to look at a train wreck in the making drop down to Canada and take a look at the fly past 60 thread.
Only one suggestion bring kevlar and your "blue helmet with the U.N. stenciled on it's side...... "
If you want to look at a train wreck in the making drop down to Canada and take a look at the fly past 60 thread.
Only one suggestion bring kevlar and your "blue helmet with the U.N. stenciled on it's side...... "
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you are still flying past 60, you are not liked by your co-workers. You are tolerated at best. These are the cold hard facts.
If you behaved to me the way you say you behave to over sixties I would off load you as a flight risk - go cry to your union rep, he's the only one who will listen. You are deliberately turning a two crew operation into a one man band and then sitting back and criticising, not very adult or safe and certainly not professional, you should feel ashamed of yourself.
ManaAdaSystem Your post is both rude and immature.
Last edited by parabellum; 12th Aug 2010 at 23:18.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: South of France
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Artie Fufkin
I must agree with your comments. Putting my hand on heart,if I was in my late sixties, would I really still want to be up all night, trying to sleep during the day, with minimum rest, running the airport security gauntlet, a/c tech problems, ATC delays, weather diversions etc.,I think not. Let the young pilots (modern systems operators) progress through the seniority list more quickly.
Taking the stance of lambourne achieves nothing, and can generate an unsafe flightdeck. Lets hope that he is never faced with a major emergency situation and the captain is over sixty.
Fangio
Taking the stance of lambourne achieves nothing, and can generate an unsafe flightdeck. Lets hope that he is never faced with a major emergency situation and the captain is over sixty.
Fangio
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: US
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
we had five years ripped away overnight
How does me not engaging the Captain in small talk and offering him a cup of tea make me unsafe? I am offer these things to my friends. When my FOM spells out my requirement to cater to the needs of the elderly I will do it as required. In the meantime I think the flights I am on are probably safer than others. There are no distractions since I have nothing to discuss with the nursing home crowd. No chance of us being engaged in a conversation and being distracted....
We are down to about 2 years left. I am not convinced that they won't raise the age to 70. Perhaps they will move the over 65 guys back to the right seat but that is probably too much to ask for. The failure of ALPA to represent the interest of the majority on this issue has left a serious black eye for the associtaion. The rest of the pilots will not sit quietly as this one gets rammed down our throats.
I would certainly hope you threw me off the trip Cappy. With my company's policy I would get paid to stay home while you drag your carcass across 13 time zones. You get to do the dance on the carpet because the FO wouldn't bring you a coffee or newspaper. Please show us in the FOM what page that is on Captain....Now who looks like the child? I comply with the requirements set forth in my policy manual and flight handbook. You would sound even more like a delusional old man that demands respect. Something that he doesn't know how to earn.
Your move.......
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: alameda
Posts: 1,053
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Iambourne
You mention offering tea and conversation to your elders...and a whole bunch about ...when the FOM requires me to talk to the elderly et. al.
I will bet that your FOM mentions CRM, or whatever your airline calls it. having taught CRM, there is a concept of crew building, of establishing a raport in which all crew members can speak up on safety.
by your own statements, not even offering the tiniest of pleaseantries, You are a hazard in the cockpit.
There are two ways to operate a cockpit. The old way and the newer ''crm'' way.
So, sit down, shut up and don't touch anything
or
It is nice to be flying with you. I've been on the plane about two years, how about you?
WEll, let's help each other be safe...speak up if you are uncomfortable or see something that isn't SOP. Always call traffic to me and don't report it to ATC until we both agree. Same with calling the airport.
Do you have anything to add?
I will bet that your FOM mentions CRM, or whatever your airline calls it. having taught CRM, there is a concept of crew building, of establishing a raport in which all crew members can speak up on safety.
by your own statements, not even offering the tiniest of pleaseantries, You are a hazard in the cockpit.
There are two ways to operate a cockpit. The old way and the newer ''crm'' way.
So, sit down, shut up and don't touch anything
or
It is nice to be flying with you. I've been on the plane about two years, how about you?
WEll, let's help each other be safe...speak up if you are uncomfortable or see something that isn't SOP. Always call traffic to me and don't report it to ATC until we both agree. Same with calling the airport.
Do you have anything to add?
ManaAdaSystem
FMC ? wot's that ? We didn't have such a gadget, just basic INS linked to PMS ( old hat now so don't bother to trouble yourself on Google) waypoints all loaded manually, SID cancelled "go direct to " they said as we lifted off - not an expected waypoint, so told trainee F/O to re-programme and insert, this he did ( incorrectly ) then screwed the heading bug to 310, night, black, me in a left turn, flight director commanding a right turn, so I ignored him, disconnected everything and used COMMON SENSE and EXPERIENCE ( sorry if that offends you ) and turned towards Jakarta, which, surprisingly, I remembered was on the way to Australia whereas a heading taking me towards Madras ( or whatever it's called now ) definitely wasn't.
When we reached top of climb, and had a coffee, I suggested that I wasn't cross with him for screwing up the INS / PMS, a new toy to him, but that as a pilot flying to Australia - he wanted to fly NorthWest ? ( maybe you need to look at your Atlas again ? )
I'm sorry for repeating what I have posted before, but as a trainee navigator, with a sextant, on a Stratocruiser, ( use Google, a Boeing-377 ) my instructor told me to stop trying to do a maths exam in a rattling steel cabinet and pretend that I was sat on the tail steering the beast over the map.
Commensense -not computers.
Now tell me about age.
QED.
Ex - I repeat Ex-Sp33db1rd
BTW, who did not cross check the FMC route on your ex SIN flight?
When we reached top of climb, and had a coffee, I suggested that I wasn't cross with him for screwing up the INS / PMS, a new toy to him, but that as a pilot flying to Australia - he wanted to fly NorthWest ? ( maybe you need to look at your Atlas again ? )
I'm sorry for repeating what I have posted before, but as a trainee navigator, with a sextant, on a Stratocruiser, ( use Google, a Boeing-377 ) my instructor told me to stop trying to do a maths exam in a rattling steel cabinet and pretend that I was sat on the tail steering the beast over the map.
Commensense -not computers.
Now tell me about age.
QED.
Ex - I repeat Ex-Sp33db1rd
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Derbyshire, England.
Posts: 4,091
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ripped away? That is absolutely absurd. You were hired on with a retirement date at age 60.
65, OK? Simple facts seem to elude you. I haven't bothered to read the rest of your post as it is probably all crap too. It has occurred to me that you, lambourne, are just too young to even be discussing this subject?
EDITED: Well, I have read it now and guess what, I was right, even more total crap.
Well said protectthehornet, he wouldn't know anything about CRM or good manners if they got up and bit him.
Last edited by parabellum; 13th Aug 2010 at 10:33.