Age 70 for international pilots?
the lunatic fringe
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Lambourne very rudely points out the limitations of older Captains
O.K. - things have moved on and you probably execute more auto-lands than I could shake a stick at, but one dark, dirty night ................... and I know which age group I'd rather be sitting back in row 86Z with now when that occurs.
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Just because you are old does not make you bad, and just because you are young does not make you good. Mediocrity is not age dependent.
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L 337
Agreed. I have no doubt there are incompetent 60+ yr olds. But these Pilots were almost certainly also incompetent 50+, 40+, 30+ and 20+ yr olds.
I'm another 60+ old fool, but if the problem lies in the (low) standard of recurrent testing, which some on this thread think it does, then the solution surely is to raise the bar for everybody. If that's what is required, then I'm all for it...
I look upon myself as clearly not as sharp as I was 20 years ago, but I have more experience than I had then and in my view it balances out. My body certainly would not wish to be flying (eg) RIO - LONDON non-stop at night any more after 2 weeks of working and playing hard around South America - or 3 night Dalamans in a row. So a couple of years ago I chose to change my lifestyle to a more sedate mode of flying (Corporate). I'm still on a learning curve and will be until the day I finally have to give it up. Of one thing I am certain though - I am definately safer now than I was 35+ years ago as a young F/O on my first jet. You may need to be razor sharp to be top gun or a member of the Red Arrows but to be a good Multi-Crew operator you require - as well as an aptitude for flying - good co-ordination, rational thinking and an ability to prioritize. Above all, you must be dependable, reliable and a good team player.
Perhaps Lambourne and his allies should consider how useful they were when they were beginners at the art. I'm sure that they, like me, owe a huge debt of gratitude to the senior guys who felt it their responsibility to pass on wisdom to inexperienced newcomers. Maybe Lambourne could also learn humility and a lot of other things, since he would appear not to be at home on the flight deck in his current state of mind.
6
Agreed. I have no doubt there are incompetent 60+ yr olds. But these Pilots were almost certainly also incompetent 50+, 40+, 30+ and 20+ yr olds.
I'm another 60+ old fool, but if the problem lies in the (low) standard of recurrent testing, which some on this thread think it does, then the solution surely is to raise the bar for everybody. If that's what is required, then I'm all for it...
I look upon myself as clearly not as sharp as I was 20 years ago, but I have more experience than I had then and in my view it balances out. My body certainly would not wish to be flying (eg) RIO - LONDON non-stop at night any more after 2 weeks of working and playing hard around South America - or 3 night Dalamans in a row. So a couple of years ago I chose to change my lifestyle to a more sedate mode of flying (Corporate). I'm still on a learning curve and will be until the day I finally have to give it up. Of one thing I am certain though - I am definately safer now than I was 35+ years ago as a young F/O on my first jet. You may need to be razor sharp to be top gun or a member of the Red Arrows but to be a good Multi-Crew operator you require - as well as an aptitude for flying - good co-ordination, rational thinking and an ability to prioritize. Above all, you must be dependable, reliable and a good team player.
Perhaps Lambourne and his allies should consider how useful they were when they were beginners at the art. I'm sure that they, like me, owe a huge debt of gratitude to the senior guys who felt it their responsibility to pass on wisdom to inexperienced newcomers. Maybe Lambourne could also learn humility and a lot of other things, since he would appear not to be at home on the flight deck in his current state of mind.
6
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Lambourne is a nit wit lol here is the true story pilots who are 60+ don`t really give a crap what the "legal requirement" in the right seat has to say
ok ok just kidding
but me being one of those 65 year olds that started in 1966 has this to say "lamb when you get to 65 and have been flying for 40+ yrs AND have never put a dent in anybody`s airplane THEN you can talk to me.
ok ok just kidding but me being one of those 65 year olds that started in 1966 has this to say "lamb when you get to 65 and have been flying for 40+ yrs AND have never put a dent in anybody`s airplane THEN you can talk to me.
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Having communicated privately with Lambourne, I can assure you that all of you who think he's a make-believe pilot are wrong.
It also amuses me that there was a time, many posts ago, when Lambourne was over the top. Increasingly, however, it's the--dare I say it--gummers who are foaming at the mouth--gums?--and destroying their own cases in their irrational fury.
Lambourne, you may have noticed, seems to have retired from the field to allow his critics to hyperventilate.
Get lives.
It also amuses me that there was a time, many posts ago, when Lambourne was over the top. Increasingly, however, it's the--dare I say it--gummers who are foaming at the mouth--gums?--and destroying their own cases in their irrational fury.
Lambourne, you may have noticed, seems to have retired from the field to allow his critics to hyperventilate.
Get lives.
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I'd like to call everyone's attention to the on-going study on aging pilots are Stanford. It would seem that the top pilots keep on trucking, while the bottom pilots really lose their ability.
So a good pilot is likely to remain a good pilot throughout his life, even in old age. But someone who is just barely squeaking by in his early flying days may deteriorate to well below the minimum competence level required to fly as he gets old.
To some extent the evolution of cognitive ability with age seems to depend on how much it is used … the more you use your brain, the better the shape it will stay in as you get older (so if you fly and you want to continue flying, be sure that you fly a lot!). However, the ability one starts out with also seems to predict its evolution over time. For example, if the threshold of acceptable performance is 100, then a pilot at 300 at age 30 might still be at 250 by age 80, but a pilot who is at 105 at age 30 might be at only 20 by age 80.
Another factor concerns reflexes substituting for brains. A young person might count on fast reflexes to help him escape the consequences of his mistakes; but as he gets older, the reflexes slow and eventually his mistakes catch up with him. A young person who makes few mistakes to begin with, however, doesn't need reflexes to compensate for them, and will still be avoiding mistakes in old age.
What all of this means is that age is not a valid criterion of pilot evaluation at the individual level. If you look at large groups of pilots, you may see a slight decline in performance with age, but that has absolutely no predictive value when applied to individuals. For individuals, the only way to measure performance is to test it, irrespective of age. That's because individual variation in this case is vastly greater than age-related changes.
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Provided, of course, that he is (or ever was) on the FD.
If any.
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I've been a Training Captain and a Check Captain for over twenty five years, in the airlines and corporate. In that time I've seen pilots who have flown the A/C better than I ever will and some who should never have been passed out of initial training. Being sub-standard is not age dependent. Pilots of any age who refuse to accept advice or help are just as much a liability as those who do not proffer it. If I am flying to a new airfield that the other pilot is familiar with or we have an abnormal situation, I have a right to expect all the help he can give and he has a right to expect the same from me.
I have experienced the days before CRM became the norm and I would not like to return to them. Some posters on this thread seem to feel that they have been put on earth to judge the competence of their crew members in a very smug, self satisfied way. This is just as bad a character trait as the overbearing Captains they are complaining about. Modern a/c are designed for a multi-crew environment and that requires that we fly as a crew. Anyone who deliberately withholds pertinent information from another crew member, for whatever reason, has no place in aviation.
I have experienced the days before CRM became the norm and I would not like to return to them. Some posters on this thread seem to feel that they have been put on earth to judge the competence of their crew members in a very smug, self satisfied way. This is just as bad a character trait as the overbearing Captains they are complaining about. Modern a/c are designed for a multi-crew environment and that requires that we fly as a crew. Anyone who deliberately withholds pertinent information from another crew member, for whatever reason, has no place in aviation.
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AnthonyGA
Well reasoned post. I agree that individual test could select those individuals that could continue flying and some might not make the cut below Age 60.
The problem is that I haven't heard of anyone doing comprehensive testing with medical, line ops or simulators to a level that would truly weed out the problems. Such testing in the USA would face decades of lawsuits even if they were perfectly designed. The problem is resources. We could test individuals faced with arbitrary limits throughout society from young drivers to young voters along with every other limitation, even the 35 year old limitation for the US Presidency. It simply becomes cost prohibitive for society to cater to every individual as in this case.
As I mentioned, I've flown with superb physical specimens who surely could fly to age 70 without problems. I've also flown with more than a few that were lacking and it appeared to be age related, especially when it came to fatigue.
The type of flying is also a factor. Many of the comments I've seen from others here along with my company and US carriers have been widebody Skippers averaging 9 day months with 3 landings, 2 extra First Officers helping if needed and excellent crew rest facilities. It's far different and more fatiguing flying narrow body aircraft into congested US airspace with 3 legs at the end of a 13.5 hour duty day at 2 am.
To repeat, I've flown jets in that enviroment with those adverse schedules with 60+ individuals. At times it was ugly. Some of then sounded like many here, that they were better than they were at 25. Usually that statement came at 10 am with half a cup of coffee in hand.
It is a safety issue. I've seen it first hand.
Well reasoned post. I agree that individual test could select those individuals that could continue flying and some might not make the cut below Age 60.
The problem is that I haven't heard of anyone doing comprehensive testing with medical, line ops or simulators to a level that would truly weed out the problems. Such testing in the USA would face decades of lawsuits even if they were perfectly designed. The problem is resources. We could test individuals faced with arbitrary limits throughout society from young drivers to young voters along with every other limitation, even the 35 year old limitation for the US Presidency. It simply becomes cost prohibitive for society to cater to every individual as in this case.
As I mentioned, I've flown with superb physical specimens who surely could fly to age 70 without problems. I've also flown with more than a few that were lacking and it appeared to be age related, especially when it came to fatigue.
The type of flying is also a factor. Many of the comments I've seen from others here along with my company and US carriers have been widebody Skippers averaging 9 day months with 3 landings, 2 extra First Officers helping if needed and excellent crew rest facilities. It's far different and more fatiguing flying narrow body aircraft into congested US airspace with 3 legs at the end of a 13.5 hour duty day at 2 am.
To repeat, I've flown jets in that enviroment with those adverse schedules with 60+ individuals. At times it was ugly. Some of then sounded like many here, that they were better than they were at 25. Usually that statement came at 10 am with half a cup of coffee in hand.
It is a safety issue. I've seen it first hand.
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411, I guess you were a little befuddled when you pontificated that this thread is only relevant to part 121 ops and not a general discussion of age related slowdown.
Can I bring to your attention your post #10 where you inform us of the 70+ Gulfstream pilot "as sharp as a tack"?
So ok for you to infer that age doesn't matter and not for me?
I did 19 years at Saudia, and we both know that a million $ in 15 is quite normal. Were you perhaps asked to leave? Masallama and don't come back?
Care to comment on the GS in Houston? Either yes or no will make you look like an idiot. Your turn.
Can I bring to your attention your post #10 where you inform us of the 70+ Gulfstream pilot "as sharp as a tack"?
So ok for you to infer that age doesn't matter and not for me?
I did 19 years at Saudia, and we both know that a million $ in 15 is quite normal. Were you perhaps asked to leave? Masallama and don't come back?
Care to comment on the GS in Houston? Either yes or no will make you look like an idiot. Your turn.
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Age requirement extends to 70 for pilots??
I totally agree! The same as driving, who wants these dangers in the sky as well as on the ground? Hang up your wings already; not safe! 
The Original Whirly
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Away with medicals. Simply use birth certificates. What a lot of saving on time, money, and hassle.
Well, that is what some of you are saying, isn't it?
Well, that is what some of you are saying, isn't it?
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I don't know the practices of issuing medicals outside of the USA. I can assure you that using the current USA aviation medical exam as a tool for weeding out those sliding due to age is completely worthless other than catching those with chronic easily diagnosed conditions or those with one foot in the grave.
There is a reason certain US AME Physicians get a huge proportion of commercial pilots.
The current system is inadequate for judging fitness for flight with a aging pilot group. The birth certificate seems to be well used for a million other arbitrary reasons including meal discounts for seniors. A true sign of selfish self importance is to deny it's use when it doesn't seem to work for oneself.
There is a reason certain US AME Physicians get a huge proportion of commercial pilots.
The current system is inadequate for judging fitness for flight with a aging pilot group. The birth certificate seems to be well used for a million other arbitrary reasons including meal discounts for seniors. A true sign of selfish self importance is to deny it's use when it doesn't seem to work for oneself.
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so, has anyone actually seen anything official about raising the age to 70?
Honduras
Bolivia
Argentina
Male
Benin
Syria
Jordan
Mauritania
And, several others.
Not done yet, only under consideration.
If it comes to pass, it will allow the younger set (such as they are) to work in their choosen profession, should they chose to do so.
Junior guys that don't especially like this arrangement, will just have to lump it.
Tough sh!te.
Edited to add...
It is quite likely that the 'change' will come from the EU, first.
Last edited by 411A; 28th Aug 2010 at 18:45.
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I've flown with a 70 year old F/O who I am sure is in the first stages of dementia.
The first major accident caused by a P in C handicapped by an age related mental condition will cause the entire matter to be revisited.
The first major accident caused by a P in C handicapped by an age related mental condition will cause the entire matter to be revisited.