Age 70 for international pilots?
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Originally Posted by parabellum
md80fanatic - Afraid so, we have it here in the housing market, of all places. Young recently married couples constantly complain that housing is becoming unfordable etc. Truth is they want now what their parents now have, after a lifetimes work. No question of cutting their cloth according to their means and as for waiting to have children, forget it, often they have a couple of those before they even consider marriage and buying their first house!
I don't know how it is where you are, but in Belgium house prices have tripled since my parents bought their home 20 years ago. Salaries have certainly not tripled in the same time frame, so it is, by all accounts, much more difficult for a honest hard working college grad to buy a home today than it was when you were younger. Supply and demand gentlemen, my generation is competing against many more (better educated) people, for increasingly scarce resources. We face challenges in the modern world that you couldn't even imagine in your wildest dreams when you were younger. So give us a break.
In the U.S. I should add that my generation has much more cause to be upset with the elderly, just look at the massive public debt due in large part to social security entitlements, and wars started by your generation.
How disrespectful of me to question my elders, I'll stop now.
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To go a little further than that. I knew many ex Eastern pilots who were hired with Comm/IR, minimum time and then were happy to vote for higher time and Univ. degrees when same rules did not apply to them. This would have been in late 60's as they had 10 years on me. Makes me wonder how many "old school" posters who also slipped thru the cracks.
And you are right about the baby boomers (of which I am one), no generation has asked for more.
And you are right about the baby boomers (of which I am one), no generation has asked for more.
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panpanyourself
yes, things have gotten more expensive all over. when I soloed, in a pa 28-140 in 1975, it rented, wet, for $12US. yes, tweleve dollars. that was about 8 hours work at minimum wage.
and just a 3 years before that, the cost was much less as we hadn't faced our first oil embargo.
things do change and we have to adapt.
and just think, you will never have to fly an NDB approach. you will have excellent navigation devices that take your brain out of situational awareness.
and yes, I've seen things go up in price just as you have and my salary has not kept up with cost of housing.
but, fly safe and keep trying.
yes, things have gotten more expensive all over. when I soloed, in a pa 28-140 in 1975, it rented, wet, for $12US. yes, tweleve dollars. that was about 8 hours work at minimum wage.
and just a 3 years before that, the cost was much less as we hadn't faced our first oil embargo.
things do change and we have to adapt.
and just think, you will never have to fly an NDB approach. you will have excellent navigation devices that take your brain out of situational awareness.
and yes, I've seen things go up in price just as you have and my salary has not kept up with cost of housing.
but, fly safe and keep trying.
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PTH, I paid 3.50 plus 5.00 for instructor in 63. I soloed in 5 hrs and my total cost for student license and medical was 50.00. The hrs were on the tach so were less than real hours. I was soloing with 50.00 total expenditure. Try doing that today. The cool part was Art Scholl was our head of the aviation department so got to fly with him.
Only just come in on this, sorry if I repeat the obvious.
In 1958 ( age 23 ) my ExSp33db1rd contract stipulated retirement at 55 ( tho' the UK age was 60, I think ), I considered some of the Ex WW II pilots I flew with extremely old men, tho' I guess they were only late 40's - it's all relative.
I changed airline and flew to a compulsory 60, and still considered myself a young man, and was disappointed that a proposed extension to 65 hadn't taken place at that time, I didn't miss the long nights and hotel hassles but I did miss the flying.
I was often asked why I was still flying at my age, " because I'm still trying to get it right " I always replied, and on my very last 747 landing I KNOW I could have handled the cross-wind better. Now I'll never get the chance to prove it !
New Zealand has no age limit, and I think that had I already been licenced and employed there I could possibly have continued, but there was no way that a 60 yr. old Foreign Alien was going to be started, so I eventually turned to the recreational world, and I've only now had a temporary ( I hope ! ) restriction - to fly with a qualified pilot - put upon my licence.
As a Microlight (LSA) instructor one of my first 'students' was a 78 yr. old who admitted to having had a bit of previous flying experience. After 2 circuits I got out. I learned later that he had learnt to fly at age 10 ( I understand that not long after that some creative 'editing' of a Birth Cert. had occurred, but my lips are sealed ) - and never stopped until his G.A. medical started giving him issues that are not an issue for the Microlight certificate. A few years later, then over 80, he flew his bride of 60 years over their village at the precise minute, hour, and day of their Golden Wedding Anniversary, and he recently appeared in the local Press as N.Z.'s oldest pilot flying solo, as he " saluted " the commemoration of a re-sited War Memorial with a fly-past in his home town. Brings tears to the eyes, I would be satisfied to achieve even half of that.
I know the subject is commercial flying, but if one is capable, both professionally and medically, who has the right to stop us - other than the bureaucrats and doomsayers ?
In 1958 ( age 23 ) my ExSp33db1rd contract stipulated retirement at 55 ( tho' the UK age was 60, I think ), I considered some of the Ex WW II pilots I flew with extremely old men, tho' I guess they were only late 40's - it's all relative.
I changed airline and flew to a compulsory 60, and still considered myself a young man, and was disappointed that a proposed extension to 65 hadn't taken place at that time, I didn't miss the long nights and hotel hassles but I did miss the flying.
I was often asked why I was still flying at my age, " because I'm still trying to get it right " I always replied, and on my very last 747 landing I KNOW I could have handled the cross-wind better. Now I'll never get the chance to prove it !
New Zealand has no age limit, and I think that had I already been licenced and employed there I could possibly have continued, but there was no way that a 60 yr. old Foreign Alien was going to be started, so I eventually turned to the recreational world, and I've only now had a temporary ( I hope ! ) restriction - to fly with a qualified pilot - put upon my licence.
As a Microlight (LSA) instructor one of my first 'students' was a 78 yr. old who admitted to having had a bit of previous flying experience. After 2 circuits I got out. I learned later that he had learnt to fly at age 10 ( I understand that not long after that some creative 'editing' of a Birth Cert. had occurred, but my lips are sealed ) - and never stopped until his G.A. medical started giving him issues that are not an issue for the Microlight certificate. A few years later, then over 80, he flew his bride of 60 years over their village at the precise minute, hour, and day of their Golden Wedding Anniversary, and he recently appeared in the local Press as N.Z.'s oldest pilot flying solo, as he " saluted " the commemoration of a re-sited War Memorial with a fly-past in his home town. Brings tears to the eyes, I would be satisfied to achieve even half of that.
I know the subject is commercial flying, but if one is capable, both professionally and medically, who has the right to stop us - other than the bureaucrats and doomsayers ?
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if it were truly a safety issue, I could believe in earlier retirement...but its not...its money...money...money.
and'that's the name of that tune
so, fly till you can't fly anymore...and I like exspeedbird's view...still trying to get it right.
in 35 years, I came close once...still can think of the virtually perfect flight. (maybe my standards are higher than yours...you naysayers)
and'that's the name of that tune
so, fly till you can't fly anymore...and I like exspeedbird's view...still trying to get it right.
in 35 years, I came close once...still can think of the virtually perfect flight. (maybe my standards are higher than yours...you naysayers)
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you got it right its all about money, some have planned right and can retire enjoying ther golden years with family and friend. and the rest stay out with us and either annoy us or entertain us. i dont mean entertain in a bad way some of the old timers i truly love flying with. some where just always prick young or old
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If ALPA backs this change in the states you will see ALPA out of business quickly. The majority of pilots have been hammered by ALPA's shift to endorse Age 65. Raise it to 70 and the number of former ALPA carriers will be large. Would be interesting to see the Mustache Mafia from ALPA flying the line. Perhaps making their lives miserable would be my new pastime?
Age 65 was a land grab. Raise it to 70 and the gummers would never find their gate. Just listening to the old gompers in Europe on the radio is painful. They miss every handoff, misread every frequency and do various acts of embarrassment outside the cockpit.
Stop this lunacy. Age does matter when flying. These clowns are not getting better with age.
Age 65 was a land grab. Raise it to 70 and the gummers would never find their gate. Just listening to the old gompers in Europe on the radio is painful. They miss every handoff, misread every frequency and do various acts of embarrassment outside the cockpit.
Stop this lunacy. Age does matter when flying. These clowns are not getting better with age.
Stop this lunacy. Age does matter when flying. These clowns are not getting better with age
I agree I have a prejudice - many will say that I am " old " !! Tough, live with it.
( Later - took me 3 attempts to get the above to " send " - if it now appears 3 times I apologise - must be getting old !! )
Last edited by ExSp33db1rd; 11th Aug 2010 at 19:39. Reason: added comment.
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These clowns are not getting better with age.
You (maybe) will get to advance when I say so....as senior Captains control the advancement portfolio now, make no mistake.
Like it, or not.
And..I could care less.
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Honestly, even if you are still fit to fly at 70 - your chances of a sudden heart attack or a stroke rise exponentially with age, and I don't think we should accept the higher risk caused by that
Except that the number one cause of air carrier incapacitations is . . . . . .food poisoning and similar digestive problems. Doesn't seem to be age-related.
Goldfish
Except that the number one cause of air carrier incapacitations is . . . . . .food poisoning and similar digestive problems. Doesn't seem to be age-related.
Goldfish
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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Age 65 was a land grab.
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In my current airline we have had 2 serious incidents involving over 60 captains. We only have a few over 60 captains.
Airblue in Islamabad had an over 60 captain who ended his career (and some 150 lives) by flying into a mountain.
There is now a trend where pilots retire from their legacy carriers at 60, then continue flying in other areas/for other carriers. I expect to see more statistics from this rather small group of pilots.
Hopefully not as bad as the Airblue accident.
Airblue in Islamabad had an over 60 captain who ended his career (and some 150 lives) by flying into a mountain.
There is now a trend where pilots retire from their legacy carriers at 60, then continue flying in other areas/for other carriers. I expect to see more statistics from this rather small group of pilots.
Hopefully not as bad as the Airblue accident.
I'd rather fly with an old, experienced, Captain, than the young whizz kid computer ace who tried to turn me on to a 310 hdg. when leaving Singapore for Australia - get your Atlas out.
He'd mis-programmed the 'computer', can happen to anyone, but don't easily blame it all on age, young or old
Is flying into a mountain a function of age ?
Statistics pls.
He'd mis-programmed the 'computer', can happen to anyone, but don't easily blame it all on age, young or old
Is flying into a mountain a function of age ?
Statistics pls.
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And I would rather fly with an experienced, young captain, than the old, experienced one who, after take off forgot to engage the auto pilot, and was utterly confused as to why the aircraft was not following the heading bug.
Flying into a mountain is not necessarily a function of age, but that was what he did. Statistics will take some time to collect, as the number of over 60 airline pilots out there are much less than the rest. 5-10 years, if someone can be bothered to collect it.
I my small outfit, the experience with over 60 as of now, is not very good.
BTW, who did not cross check the FMC route on your ex SIN flight?
Flying into a mountain is not necessarily a function of age, but that was what he did. Statistics will take some time to collect, as the number of over 60 airline pilots out there are much less than the rest. 5-10 years, if someone can be bothered to collect it.
I my small outfit, the experience with over 60 as of now, is not very good.
BTW, who did not cross check the FMC route on your ex SIN flight?
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maybe we should just get rid of all bad pilots, leaving only good pilots...in good health
and maybe a 24 hour rule should be used to stop alcohol use.
hmmm...maybe alcohol use finally breaks down the brains of over 60 year old pilots?
and maybe a 24 hour rule should be used to stop alcohol use.
hmmm...maybe alcohol use finally breaks down the brains of over 60 year old pilots?
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I have almost 3 years of giving the over 60 pilots grief. Never ever ask them if they want ANYTHING: water, food,newspaper, etc. When they approach in ops stop any conversation. Wait til they shuffle onward and continue the previous pleasantries with other crew. Nothing says I have to be friends with these guys. The minimum is what they get from me and most of the other guys I work with.
Whenever, they make any type of complaint, it is my duty to remind them they should be in a retirement home instead of an airplane. If they don't like it here they should quit. Too hot on the crew bus: quit, too noisy in hotel:quit, too long of a trip: quit, too hard of a commute: quit.
These guys should thank their lucky stars they were able to jab the entire industry with their deeds. The sooner they are gone the better. In the meantime, "can I NOT get you anything?
Whenever, they make any type of complaint, it is my duty to remind them they should be in a retirement home instead of an airplane. If they don't like it here they should quit. Too hot on the crew bus: quit, too noisy in hotel:quit, too long of a trip: quit, too hard of a commute: quit.
These guys should thank their lucky stars they were able to jab the entire industry with their deeds. The sooner they are gone the better. In the meantime, "can I NOT get you anything?