Age 70 for international pilots?
lambourne,
What most don't realize is the slide that begins with everybody that they have no control over. I beleive most also don't realize the signs as they are subtle and isidious.
I'm currently in the left seat with a major US carrier and frankly haven't seen the problems I saw with the RHS as I saw for years flying with guys in the LHS. I did see one however. Late 50's FO who was noticably slower than every FO I've ever flown with, including judgement.
I also have flown with many in their late 50's who were Captains at my airline before the law changed. Many were in great shape mentally and physically, some like 20 year olds. Others had only one attribute, mental or physical that was in good shape. One was a age 60+ gadfly who railed against the law that didn't change before he was retired. He ran marathons, and ran the distance of two of them home from the airport in two days after his retirement flight to make a point. his mind and judgement was going to mush for the last couple of years, and was a threat to safety. Problem was, when he was reported, he might have to take a simulator check at 10:00 am and do a great job for 2 hours. He might even fly with a Check Airman after a complaint. He might suck it up and do a good job on that flight. On the 3rd day of the next trip on long day, his brain was back to mush.
I also had experience flying with more than a few 60+ guys in business jets. Same experience. a few did good, probably will remain sharp until 90. Most started the slide. The biggest problem was with fatigue. Most would do fine with a middle of the day sim check or evaluation, but after several legs after 13 hours at 3 am, most became worthless. Only one of them had the sense to look at me and say, "I'm not 25 anymore, this snowy night NDB approach into a short runway is too much, do you mind flying it?" Fine with me, the crew was now on the same page.
Others thought they were Bob Hoover because he was the same age. I still can't explain why I am alive today writing this because of one 63 year old that thought he was ok, just as I read from many of the posters here. I've flown with enough to get a good enough statistical sample for me and is now an issued if I'm faced with putting my family onboard.
When I read the Houston GII crash, I shook my head. I'd been there cleaning up the mess of some goat at 4 am after we got 2 hours of sleep. In that crash, both were in advanced years. If any of you don't think that was a possible major factor in the accident, you are delusional.I'm not against flying past age 60 for financial or upgrade reasons. that
argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. I'm against it for safety reasons.
As of today, there isn't a single check in place to counter the slide with age until it's well beyond safe. Checkrides and medical checks don't cut it and can be fooled by someone having a good day and then it's months off flying thousands of people.
good day
What most don't realize is the slide that begins with everybody that they have no control over. I beleive most also don't realize the signs as they are subtle and isidious.
I'm currently in the left seat with a major US carrier and frankly haven't seen the problems I saw with the RHS as I saw for years flying with guys in the LHS. I did see one however. Late 50's FO who was noticably slower than every FO I've ever flown with, including judgement.
I also have flown with many in their late 50's who were Captains at my airline before the law changed. Many were in great shape mentally and physically, some like 20 year olds. Others had only one attribute, mental or physical that was in good shape. One was a age 60+ gadfly who railed against the law that didn't change before he was retired. He ran marathons, and ran the distance of two of them home from the airport in two days after his retirement flight to make a point. his mind and judgement was going to mush for the last couple of years, and was a threat to safety. Problem was, when he was reported, he might have to take a simulator check at 10:00 am and do a great job for 2 hours. He might even fly with a Check Airman after a complaint. He might suck it up and do a good job on that flight. On the 3rd day of the next trip on long day, his brain was back to mush.
I also had experience flying with more than a few 60+ guys in business jets. Same experience. a few did good, probably will remain sharp until 90. Most started the slide. The biggest problem was with fatigue. Most would do fine with a middle of the day sim check or evaluation, but after several legs after 13 hours at 3 am, most became worthless. Only one of them had the sense to look at me and say, "I'm not 25 anymore, this snowy night NDB approach into a short runway is too much, do you mind flying it?" Fine with me, the crew was now on the same page.
Others thought they were Bob Hoover because he was the same age. I still can't explain why I am alive today writing this because of one 63 year old that thought he was ok, just as I read from many of the posters here. I've flown with enough to get a good enough statistical sample for me and is now an issued if I'm faced with putting my family onboard.
When I read the Houston GII crash, I shook my head. I'd been there cleaning up the mess of some goat at 4 am after we got 2 hours of sleep. In that crash, both were in advanced years. If any of you don't think that was a possible major factor in the accident, you are delusional.I'm not against flying past age 60 for financial or upgrade reasons. that
argument doesn't have a leg to stand on. I'm against it for safety reasons.
As of today, there isn't a single check in place to counter the slide with age until it's well beyond safe. Checkrides and medical checks don't cut it and can be fooled by someone having a good day and then it's months off flying thousands of people.
good day
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Well said Lizad,
Sure, I know guys in their 60's who could kick out the miles and bury me when I was in my 40's, but that is an exception.
The same with mental acuity, there will be a few who are dedicated enough to overcome age related slowdown simply because they realize they aren't at the top of their game anymore. But the vast majority are relying on past experience and belief that any future decision will be handled as it was in the past.
PS Hornet, I retired at 56 with my bucket full. If you seem to think you have the pull to order a urine test for me, come on over, I'll pee on your hand!
Sure, I know guys in their 60's who could kick out the miles and bury me when I was in my 40's, but that is an exception.
The same with mental acuity, there will be a few who are dedicated enough to overcome age related slowdown simply because they realize they aren't at the top of their game anymore. But the vast majority are relying on past experience and belief that any future decision will be handled as it was in the past.
PS Hornet, I retired at 56 with my bucket full. If you seem to think you have the pull to order a urine test for me, come on over, I'll pee on your hand!
On the subject of lambourne, you guys are giving him far more attention than he deserves, ignore him completely and he will go away and annoy someone else.
Regards,
BH.
Regards,
BH.
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I truly think that we don't fully understand the process of the mind, especially in terms of flying.
in my 50's , I wouldn't go out on overnights, I would concentrate on being well rested for the next day. lambourne might be out screwing a FA (and maybe not female in his case) and be tired...he might miss a few things the next day.
I do think that older pilots somehow know how to stay out of trouble. And that's a heckuva thing to do.
in my 50's , I wouldn't go out on overnights, I would concentrate on being well rested for the next day. lambourne might be out screwing a FA (and maybe not female in his case) and be tired...he might miss a few things the next day.
I do think that older pilots somehow know how to stay out of trouble. And that's a heckuva thing to do.
Hornet. Good job, you keep yourself rested and healthy for the next days flying. I found some Captains doing the same over my last two decades flying, most of that time in the right seat.
I can assure you from that time flying with many Captain's as well as the additonal FO, i'd give the Captains the nod for doing the most stupid @#$%.
I've found myself without a pulse on my fellow Captain's performance after moving to the left seat. I can assure you and others that if I have lost that insight in a little less than three years, those here in the left seat for a decade or more of constant flying with the same crews have little insight to thier fellow Captains.
I've seen former "stud" pilots now old men brag about their new layover girlfriend. Of course she's hot they'd say, then she shows up and she's a pig. Same goes for bragging about their golf game. Out on the links, they suck and hold the score card two feet from their face to read it. Others were also quite pompous with their flight command, but not contribution to the seismic research from their landings. Yes kids, there are 411A clones out there. The Petri has overflowed a few times over the years
Getting old sucks at some point.
I can assure you from that time flying with many Captain's as well as the additonal FO, i'd give the Captains the nod for doing the most stupid @#$%.
I've found myself without a pulse on my fellow Captain's performance after moving to the left seat. I can assure you and others that if I have lost that insight in a little less than three years, those here in the left seat for a decade or more of constant flying with the same crews have little insight to thier fellow Captains.
I've seen former "stud" pilots now old men brag about their new layover girlfriend. Of course she's hot they'd say, then she shows up and she's a pig. Same goes for bragging about their golf game. Out on the links, they suck and hold the score card two feet from their face to read it. Others were also quite pompous with their flight command, but not contribution to the seismic research from their landings. Yes kids, there are 411A clones out there. The Petri has overflowed a few times over the years
Getting old sucks at some point.
Just remind me, what was the combines age of the two pilots that flew (and stalled) a twin turbo prop approaching Buffalo?
I think 65 is enough for being an airline pilot/captain.Let's face it guys,it has to end somewhere and sometime.If you haven't made the pot of gold by then you haven't been too prudent.The money argument is always compelling and surprisingly while heading for grizzled veteran status myself(where did the time go?) I would not relish flying beyond 65.
atb
atb
Do not feed the trolls
On the subject of lambourne, you guys are giving him far more attention than he deserves, ignore him completely and he will go away and annoy someone else.
Regards,
BH.
Regards,
BH.
But one last comment, i'm sure he is ex military, was unhappy there too and a shame for the outfit.
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I wonder just how long lambourne has had this fixation with teeth and gums? I suppose he'll be quite happy to be referred to as a 'gummer' when he passes 60, assuming he passes 60 of course.
The issue is not the number of years attached to your CV, it is simply your ability to do the job required. If your health and mental dexterity are adequate to perform the task, then get on with it.
I'm quite certain that there are stastistics to show that suffering a heart attack at the controls of your aircraft age 60+ is no more likely than the F/O collapsing of a stroke or acute food poisoning, hence the raising of the retirement age.
If bile is a requirement for a happy and fulfilling life in the RHS of lambourne's airline then he should continue to enjoy his work well into his 60s.
I'm glad I don't have to fly anywhere withing the USA if the guy doing the poling is in that state of mind when he's sat alongside a 'gummer'.
The issue is not the number of years attached to your CV, it is simply your ability to do the job required. If your health and mental dexterity are adequate to perform the task, then get on with it.
I'm quite certain that there are stastistics to show that suffering a heart attack at the controls of your aircraft age 60+ is no more likely than the F/O collapsing of a stroke or acute food poisoning, hence the raising of the retirement age.
If bile is a requirement for a happy and fulfilling life in the RHS of lambourne's airline then he should continue to enjoy his work well into his 60s.
I'm glad I don't have to fly anywhere withing the USA if the guy doing the poling is in that state of mind when he's sat alongside a 'gummer'.
This is ridiculous, it has become a personal pissing contest and the thread should be stopped.
Those of us with any sense, or integrity, have better things to do, whatever age.
Goodbye.
Those of us with any sense, or integrity, have better things to do, whatever age.
Goodbye.
To all those upset at the age 60 rule.
Sad to see such bitterness clouding these pages and detracting from what could be a great discussion on how to create a level playing field on which all able bodied pilots can ply their trade.
I was major PO'ed when I lost my Check Airman job due to downsizing.
Mrs. F-I, PO'ed at my attitude posed the following question.
What is the definition of bitterness?
No idea! Quoth I.
It is when you drink the poison and wait for the other guy to die.
Seems to me there are several on this thread who would do well to think on that!
I was major PO'ed when I lost my Check Airman job due to downsizing.
Mrs. F-I, PO'ed at my attitude posed the following question.
What is the definition of bitterness?
No idea! Quoth I.
It is when you drink the poison and wait for the other guy to die.
Seems to me there are several on this thread who would do well to think on that!
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The point is this:
The heart attack is speculation, the age is not.
By the looks of it there seems nothing wrong with the landing gears and the cockpit seems to be intact in which case the crash should be survivable.
The pilots age, 68, may indicate a heart attack e.g. was the cause.
The pilots age, 68, may indicate a heart attack e.g. was the cause.
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It remain to be seen of he died in a Spitfire crash, or if he crashed a Spitfire and died. He had 30000+ hours if I got the numbers correct.
As the number of over 60 (not to say over 65) pilots are low compared to the below 60 group, every time a dinosaur kills himself, or himself + 150 passengers, the age factor should be examined very closely.
As the number of over 60 (not to say over 65) pilots are low compared to the below 60 group, every time a dinosaur kills himself, or himself + 150 passengers, the age factor should be examined very closely.
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I can play that game. 
The UK
Yep the stats don’t lie. If you guys can’t drive a car safely when you’re on terra firma, why should we trust you to fly an aircraft in a complex environment?
BTW, a young driver is one classed as 25 or less.
The UK
2007, 40% of passengers killed or seriously injured – meaning lost limbs, paralysis, brain injury and other life-changing injuries – were in a car driven by a young driver
BTW, a young driver is one classed as 25 or less.