Age 70 for international pilots?
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hornet,
It works perfectly if the old guy is control of his schedule and the weather he flys in. Forecast to land a NRT with a 30kt crosswind with a approaching Typhoon?, let the junior FO/FB/FC fly it or use one of his 1000 sick hours to stay home. The less senior guy flying reserve narrowbody doesn't have that luxury. 30 Kt crosswind with mins at LGA, "F.U., you fly pilotboy, we don't care if your a geriatric". Get the picture?
In my previous example of flying with geriatrics in charter jets, I mentioned one in particular who lived by the motto and I respected for it. At the end of a long duty day when we were both fatigued, he would tell me he couldn't do the job that late as good as he could at 10am. Our little "system" worked fine.
The problem was, there was another geriatric at the same company who apparently never heard of that motto, thought he was Chuck Yeager and aging wasn't a problem, just young whippersnappers. This was the guy that almost killed me and the CEO of a Fortune 500 Corporation. He also passed medicals with flying with an easy FAA Dr. He was passed by a reputable simulator training company although I could tell they fudged the system to get him through from learning his "new techniques". Let me tell you how much fun it was getting off every flight with this "senior menace" and hearing from the pax "You let the young kid fly today didn't you?". The worthless puke never admitted he bounced the pax all over the cabin every flight. Yes, after I reported the attempted murder on me and the CEO, and I was promptly placed in the "doghouse" for questioning the "Senior Aviator" of impeccable credentials. That's how the political life is at many non-union pilot groups with "connected, untouchable" individuals. Knowing that reality, that's why I am for an arbitrary age cutoff.
Not long afterwards I was let out of the doghouse and given treats for my integrity. You see, Mr CEO had his own jet down for maintenance which is why we got the charter. Mr CEO had a good Chief Pilot who busted into our op looking for scalps after learning of the bosses experience.
I'd bow out of the debate if it was purely about money and the left seat. Since that time I've seen many others exhibiting the same problems I've dealt with in the past. Age is a factor. I don't know what to say when another poster replies to my points that almost dying from it is not a factor, and no additional testing for old guys is fair. it's like the debate with guns. It seems like myself and others are to submit to this risk because additional testing would be unfair to others like old people.
One get some clarity on the issue after finding yourself involuntarily hyperventilating on rollout after an exceptionally stupid move from a 63 year old in a bizjet.
The denial present on this board is stunning.
It works perfectly if the old guy is control of his schedule and the weather he flys in. Forecast to land a NRT with a 30kt crosswind with a approaching Typhoon?, let the junior FO/FB/FC fly it or use one of his 1000 sick hours to stay home. The less senior guy flying reserve narrowbody doesn't have that luxury. 30 Kt crosswind with mins at LGA, "F.U., you fly pilotboy, we don't care if your a geriatric". Get the picture?
In my previous example of flying with geriatrics in charter jets, I mentioned one in particular who lived by the motto and I respected for it. At the end of a long duty day when we were both fatigued, he would tell me he couldn't do the job that late as good as he could at 10am. Our little "system" worked fine.
The problem was, there was another geriatric at the same company who apparently never heard of that motto, thought he was Chuck Yeager and aging wasn't a problem, just young whippersnappers. This was the guy that almost killed me and the CEO of a Fortune 500 Corporation. He also passed medicals with flying with an easy FAA Dr. He was passed by a reputable simulator training company although I could tell they fudged the system to get him through from learning his "new techniques". Let me tell you how much fun it was getting off every flight with this "senior menace" and hearing from the pax "You let the young kid fly today didn't you?". The worthless puke never admitted he bounced the pax all over the cabin every flight. Yes, after I reported the attempted murder on me and the CEO, and I was promptly placed in the "doghouse" for questioning the "Senior Aviator" of impeccable credentials. That's how the political life is at many non-union pilot groups with "connected, untouchable" individuals. Knowing that reality, that's why I am for an arbitrary age cutoff.
Not long afterwards I was let out of the doghouse and given treats for my integrity. You see, Mr CEO had his own jet down for maintenance which is why we got the charter. Mr CEO had a good Chief Pilot who busted into our op looking for scalps after learning of the bosses experience.
I'd bow out of the debate if it was purely about money and the left seat. Since that time I've seen many others exhibiting the same problems I've dealt with in the past. Age is a factor. I don't know what to say when another poster replies to my points that almost dying from it is not a factor, and no additional testing for old guys is fair. it's like the debate with guns. It seems like myself and others are to submit to this risk because additional testing would be unfair to others like old people.
One get some clarity on the issue after finding yourself involuntarily hyperventilating on rollout after an exceptionally stupid move from a 63 year old in a bizjet.
The denial present on this board is stunning.
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Well said, and that's exactly what it is, denial of the natural process of aging. And it isn't going to work as 411 pointed out to move the 65 to a reserve line where he could be called at 2 AM with light sleep or less. As many have mentioned, fatigue can have a cumulative affect with age.
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And it isn't going to work as 411 pointed out to move the 65 to a reserve line where he could be called at 2 AM with light sleep or less.
Simples.
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There are 70 year-olds who are sharper than 25 year-olds. On the other hand, there are many staying well past their prime.
It reminds me of what some states are doing with driver licenses. After 65, they make the renewal interval tighter and make them come in for eye exams.
While tightening up the interval for physicals isn't applicable here, maybe there's something else that could be done.
We all know that there are flight docs who are known to give easy passes. Perhaps the FAA could certify a smaller number of select examiners as "geriatric aviation medicine" specialists, and require them to certify older pilots as not falling prey to the maladies that accompany aging.
I know it won't happen, but I think it would answer the mail.
It reminds me of what some states are doing with driver licenses. After 65, they make the renewal interval tighter and make them come in for eye exams.
While tightening up the interval for physicals isn't applicable here, maybe there's something else that could be done.
We all know that there are flight docs who are known to give easy passes. Perhaps the FAA could certify a smaller number of select examiners as "geriatric aviation medicine" specialists, and require them to certify older pilots as not falling prey to the maladies that accompany aging.
I know it won't happen, but I think it would answer the mail.
AnthonyGa wrote
Probably one of best suggestions that I have read on this forum although that would bring the entire "game" crashing down now wouldn't it? There would have to start being more intelligent allowances for circadian disruptions built into schedules and an awareness that not every human can force himself/herself asleep for the night at 5 p.m. body time and then easily wake up a 1 a.m. body time for a 14 hour day. Some can and some can't and I feel sorry for the impairment that those who can't must suffer.
I know, I know, the answer to that is if those poor souls don't like it they should quit, but I would have thought that one day a more enlightened approach would be tried--sort of like the idea of leaving the camping area in better shape then what you found it in...
It is enviable if one is, whilst still in nappies, to be hired into a stable and growing carrier and thus have the luxury of always plying the routes that are best for them. Yet I have seen legions of poor sappers for whom fate has blown iller winds are left with the unenviable choice of having to suffer lack of sleep on their rosters or else have to consider a mid-life career change into something such as chartered accountancy (as worthy as that career might be).
Checking a pilot's age is pretty useless. It would be a lot more productive to check how much good-quality sleep he has had prior to arriving at the airport.
Probably one of best suggestions that I have read on this forum although that would bring the entire "game" crashing down now wouldn't it? There would have to start being more intelligent allowances for circadian disruptions built into schedules and an awareness that not every human can force himself/herself asleep for the night at 5 p.m. body time and then easily wake up a 1 a.m. body time for a 14 hour day. Some can and some can't and I feel sorry for the impairment that those who can't must suffer.
I know, I know, the answer to that is if those poor souls don't like it they should quit, but I would have thought that one day a more enlightened approach would be tried--sort of like the idea of leaving the camping area in better shape then what you found it in...
It is enviable if one is, whilst still in nappies, to be hired into a stable and growing carrier and thus have the luxury of always plying the routes that are best for them. Yet I have seen legions of poor sappers for whom fate has blown iller winds are left with the unenviable choice of having to suffer lack of sleep on their rosters or else have to consider a mid-life career change into something such as chartered accountancy (as worthy as that career might be).
Last edited by Uncle Fred; 30th Aug 2010 at 02:12.
Bottums Up
The simple solution to this problem is to ban pilots under 35 from flying because they're too young and inexperienced, and then to ban all pilots over 40 from flying because at 40 one is on the downhill slide. This would get all the old farts off the flight deck.
On the other hand we could prevent all aircraft accidents, 100%, by grounding all aircraft.
On the other hand we could prevent all aircraft accidents, 100%, by grounding all aircraft.
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Last year I was flying long haul with a 70 year old F/O who is a check F/O, checking F/O's and S/O's. On this occasion he was checking the S/O. This was a 4 pilot crew, 2 on, 2 off, and during the flight I asked him for 10 left and right of track due weather on the datalink, an exceptionally easy and very routine task. He couldn't do it and while he was in the bunkroom the rest of us are howling with laughter at a guy who should be in a retirement village.
Bottums Up
The other day I asked the young F/O to call "ready". Instead he called "ready on line up".
There's an enormous difference between "ready" and "ready on line up". I shook my head in wonder that he couldn't carry out a simple instruction.
There's an enormous difference between "ready" and "ready on line up". I shook my head in wonder that he couldn't carry out a simple instruction.
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ZZZZZZZ
What was that you said Uhh...ZZZZZZZ!! Come on guys if, the person (he or she) passes medicalīs and SIMīs then, whatīs the problem? Are we discriminating here...
sorry not allowed. Pension plans going haywire...maybe?. Young pilotīs also get through their SIMīs and pass medicalīs. And I imagine some are not all that they make out to be! In all fairness, who is going to put an age limit on our profession when, all the above is taken into account. Itīs very nice to work for a company 25 years and retire with a good pension, yes. But, others, have not been so lucky and have been left without a pension. They might need to work in what they are trained to do, shall we deny them that right?
What was that you said Uhh...ZZZZZZZ!! Come on guys if, the person (he or she) passes medicalīs and SIMīs then, whatīs the problem? Are we discriminating here... sorry not allowed. Pension plans going haywire...maybe?. Young pilotīs also get through their SIMīs and pass medicalīs. And I imagine some are not all that they make out to be! In all fairness, who is going to put an age limit on our profession when, all the above is taken into account. Itīs very nice to work for a company 25 years and retire with a good pension, yes. But, others, have not been so lucky and have been left without a pension. They might need to work in what they are trained to do, shall we deny them that right?
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The other day I asked the young F/O to call "ready". Instead he called "ready on line up".
There's an enormous difference between "ready" and "ready on line up". I shook my head in wonder that he couldn't carry out a simple instruction.
There's an enormous difference between "ready" and "ready on line up". I shook my head in wonder that he couldn't carry out a simple instruction.
Last edited by lambourne; 30th Aug 2010 at 13:31.
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Last year I was flying long haul with a 70 year old F/O who is a check F/O, checking F/O's and S/O's. On this occasion he was checking the S/O. This was a 4 pilot crew, 2 on, 2 off, and during the flight I asked him for 10 left and right of track due weather on the datalink, an exceptionally easy and very routine task. He couldn't do it and while he was in the bunkroom the rest of us are howling with laughter at a guy who should be in a retirement village
Wouldn't this have been easily achieved using the heading bug? Perhaps you are just another slave to automation?
Bottums Up
Or like the other young F/O, when asked to advise TWR that we required an early left turn (to avoid weather painting upwind), said "ah TWR, we um might need an early left turn when airborne".
An old gummer would have said, "TWR, require an early left turn".
An old gummer would have said, "TWR, require an early left turn".
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Or like the other young F/O, when asked to advise TWR that we required an early left turn (to avoid weather painting upwind), said "ah TWR, we um might need an early left turn when airborne".
An old gummer would have said, "TWR, require an early left turn".
An old gummer would have said, "TWR, require an early left turn".
Last edited by Hotel Charlie; 30th Aug 2010 at 16:30. Reason: "to do" instead of "do do" makes a little more sense!
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parabellum
Perhaps "young" skol missed a comma or two ?
I have never seen weather on the datalink ! 
I guess he was asking the mature F/O to send a datalink (CPDLC) request for the deviations?
Clear instructions prevent confusion.
Perhaps "young" skol missed a comma or two ?
and during the flight I asked him for 10 left and right of track due weather on the datalink,
I guess he was asking the mature F/O to send a datalink (CPDLC) request for the deviations?
Clear instructions prevent confusion.
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skol
I asked him for 10 left and right of track due weather on the datalink,
Do you mean 10 degrees or 10 NM ?
Still
Forgive me here, but your post looks like to be written by someone either over 80 or bellow 10.
1. How can you avoid weather "left and right" ?
2. Wouldnt it be better either left or right ?
3. Weather has a tendency "not to remain in steady place" on datalink...
4. So why did you not just use simple old heading bug ?
Cheers
