Age 70 for international pilots?
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I recall a UAL 737 in which the captain had an unknown brain tumor...and he was under 60 years of age. His performance was impaired. and this was in the day of 3 crewmembers on the 737.
there are cases of people with dementia in their middle age. so let's not use age as the sole factor.
there are cases of people with dementia in their middle age. so let's not use age as the sole factor.
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Alzheimers or senile dementia is obviously much more likely in a person of advanced age so it is certainly a good argument.
Of course there are cases of dementia in middle age but extremely rare and you and I both know there is no way of checking what's going on between pilots ears at medicals.
An accident caused by a mentally impaired aged pilot (and there will be one) will be so sensational the public will demand answers.
Flying aeroplanes is not a job for old people. 65 is more than enough.
Of course there are cases of dementia in middle age but extremely rare and you and I both know there is no way of checking what's going on between pilots ears at medicals.
An accident caused by a mentally impaired aged pilot (and there will be one) will be so sensational the public will demand answers.
Flying aeroplanes is not a job for old people. 65 is more than enough.
Last edited by skol; 28th Aug 2010 at 21:01.
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Alzheimer's disease and other forms of dementia are not conditions that present for the first time in the form of pilot incapacitation. They are slow-moving conditions with fairly obvious symptoms that will interfere with day-to-day life long before a concern for flying arises. If a person cannot find his way to the airport, he's unlikely to have his condition discovered on the flight deck.
The requirements for flying are the same at any age. There is no reason to have additional requirements for older pilots. If a given set of requirements suffices at age 25, then it also suffices at age 75. The tests should concentrate purely on verifying that a person can safely fly, not on discriminating between age groups with artificial, additional restrictions that only apply to older pilots.
Do away with medicals? No, that probably wouldn't be a good idea. However, many of the requirements and restrictions that exist now could be safely eased or eliminated without any real impact on safety. Aviation authorities are obsessed with the bogeyman of a pilot who suddenly passes out at the controls, but this type of sudden pilot incapacitation is practically unknown, even though nearly the entire process of medical certification concentrates upon it (to the detriment of many other considerations).
You might say that pilot incapacitation is rare because medicals are so stringent. But in that case, you'll have to explain why driver incapacitation is also extraordinarily rare, even though most automobile drivers scarcely need more than a quick vision test to get a license.
You can also see how rare it is just by walking down a street. When was the last time you were on a busy street or in a crowd and you saw someone suddenly incapacitated, dropping to the ground? It's just as likely on the street as it is on a flight deck. And yet it's so rare that many of us have never seen it at all (I've seen it exactly once in my lifetime). And these people on the street are not being given aviation medicals to weed out the high risks.
In other words, the whole notion of pilot incapacitation, whether it be through some medical condition or simply the result of old age (although old age alone never produces incapacitation), is not very relevant in aviation today. There are far greater dangers to worry about, such as simple pilot fatigue, and they are not addressed by aviation medical exams at all.
Checking a pilot's age is pretty useless. It would be a lot more productive to check how much good-quality sleep he has had prior to arriving at the airport.
The requirements for flying are the same at any age. There is no reason to have additional requirements for older pilots. If a given set of requirements suffices at age 25, then it also suffices at age 75. The tests should concentrate purely on verifying that a person can safely fly, not on discriminating between age groups with artificial, additional restrictions that only apply to older pilots.
Do away with medicals? No, that probably wouldn't be a good idea. However, many of the requirements and restrictions that exist now could be safely eased or eliminated without any real impact on safety. Aviation authorities are obsessed with the bogeyman of a pilot who suddenly passes out at the controls, but this type of sudden pilot incapacitation is practically unknown, even though nearly the entire process of medical certification concentrates upon it (to the detriment of many other considerations).
You might say that pilot incapacitation is rare because medicals are so stringent. But in that case, you'll have to explain why driver incapacitation is also extraordinarily rare, even though most automobile drivers scarcely need more than a quick vision test to get a license.
You can also see how rare it is just by walking down a street. When was the last time you were on a busy street or in a crowd and you saw someone suddenly incapacitated, dropping to the ground? It's just as likely on the street as it is on a flight deck. And yet it's so rare that many of us have never seen it at all (I've seen it exactly once in my lifetime). And these people on the street are not being given aviation medicals to weed out the high risks.
In other words, the whole notion of pilot incapacitation, whether it be through some medical condition or simply the result of old age (although old age alone never produces incapacitation), is not very relevant in aviation today. There are far greater dangers to worry about, such as simple pilot fatigue, and they are not addressed by aviation medical exams at all.
Checking a pilot's age is pretty useless. It would be a lot more productive to check how much good-quality sleep he has had prior to arriving at the airport.
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Do away with medicals? No, that probably wouldn't be a good idea
Also, it is interesting to note that first class medical examinations, be it FAA or JAA, are failed in about the same percentage....about 3%.
How do I know this?
The MD I go to for my FAA medical also admisters JAA, DoT Canada...and a host of other countries requirements...and has been doing so far at least the last fifteen years.
Old age?
Baloney....it affects some, certainly, but not the majority.
However, I would offer a suggestion for those younger pilots who feel they are affected.
I would propose, for those pilots age 65 or more, be consigned to reserve flight status only, and this could easily be arranged by the respective airline's collective bargining arrangements.
In this way, the younger guys could advance to Commander status, without affecting the old(er) pilots desire to remain in the LHS....or RHS, as the case may be.
How about that?
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Checking a pilot's age is pretty useless. It would be a lot more productive to check how much good-quality sleep he has had prior to arriving at the airport.
I will consider many things if flying with fellow crewmember I've never worked before. Personal appearance, attention to detail, motivation to do the job correctly per the company and air regs despite distractions, and including age. Very young and very old will warrant my attention until assurred of adequate performance.
I guess I was dreaming about my past experience of flying with age 60+ pilots and the proportion of them demonstrating performance limitations.
Good quality sleep? shall we begin another discussion regarding the quality of sleep one gets with age advances. How many times does one hear of the failure to get 8+ hours of uninterrupted sleep with those in the aging process? Another related issue is the interruption of sleep cycles with aviation. I agree that good rest is important and every age group suffers in performance as a result. this was another result I saw first hand flying with 60+ pilots. There isn't a thing as good rest or sleep with a 3 am wake up call and denying that it doesn't affect a rising number of older pilots as they age is criminally negligent.
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I would also agree that sudden incapacitation is not the threat made out to be. Partial incapacitations are more likely and much more common. I've seen plenty of those in public and had more than a few on my flights. It has also occurred with pilots at my carrier, including those of all ages.
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I've discussed the matter of aging pilots, with the MD who does my medicals, at some length.
This guy also does medicals for foreign carriers and is very involved in the aviation industry.
He's a firm believer in a fixed age and has told me the problems he faces trying to assess the mental conditon of old pilots during the time it takes for a medical, almost an impossible task.
On the only occasion he failed an elderly pilot, for confusion in his case, this individual promptly obtained his medical certificate elsewhere.
A couple of managers can't understand why they're hearing stories but haven't had any hard evidence like formal reports. You don't need to be Albert Einstein to work that one out.
The industry is relying on pilots to dob in their compatriots so you're leaving yourself wide open to allegations of harassment.
Better to leave the dirty work to someone else, right?
This guy also does medicals for foreign carriers and is very involved in the aviation industry.
He's a firm believer in a fixed age and has told me the problems he faces trying to assess the mental conditon of old pilots during the time it takes for a medical, almost an impossible task.
On the only occasion he failed an elderly pilot, for confusion in his case, this individual promptly obtained his medical certificate elsewhere.
A couple of managers can't understand why they're hearing stories but haven't had any hard evidence like formal reports. You don't need to be Albert Einstein to work that one out.
The industry is relying on pilots to dob in their compatriots so you're leaving yourself wide open to allegations of harassment.
Better to leave the dirty work to someone else, right?
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Very young and very old will warrant my attention until assurred of adequate performance.
Youth isn't a problem. Lack of experience is a big problem. Young people generally have less experience. But by checking experience (and not age), you solve that problem without the need for age discrimination. If a pilot somehow has 15,000 hours of real experience at age 25, then the fact that he is 25 makes no difference at all.
Old age isn't a problem. Medical conditions that are more common with age are problems. But the medical exam rules those out. If you were pulling 70-year-old people at random from the street to work as pilots, then yes, there would be more medical problems among them than you'd find in a 30-year-old cohort. However, pilots are not pulled from the population at random. A vast body of regulation and testing ensures that all pilots meet certain physical qualifications for flying, so irrespective of age, a pilot who is certified medically fit is okay to fly.
I guess I was dreaming about my past experience of flying with age 60+ pilots and the proportion of them demonstrating performance limitations.
Remember also that marginal pilots deteriorate a lot faster than superior pilots. That's not a direct result of aging, it's just that aging makes mediocre pilots a lot more obvious.
[The doctor I know] is a firm believer in a fixed age and has told me the problems he faces trying to assess the mental conditon of old pilots during the time it takes for a medical, almost an impossible task.
From what you are saying, this doctor takes for granted that older pilots require more evaluation, even though there's no evidence to support that.
A simple principle applies: Any exam that accurately assesses the aptitude of a pilot to fly can be applied to any age, because age itself is not relevant to aptitude. If the current exam fails to identify certain pilots as not fit to fly, then the exam needs to change. You do not administer a different exam for older pilots, because the objective requirements of flying do not change with age (maybe they change with aircraft, or type of pilot certification, or with other factors, but not with age).
Doctors can be biased, too, unfortunately.
I'm surprised (well, maybe not so surprised) that so many here dwell on the alleged deterioration in physical condition that comes with age, while ignoring the huge, enormous advantage that comes with experience. Not just total flying hours, but general experience. Older people make decisions more slowly, but their decisions are generally better. That's why so many positions of responsibility are held by older people. And flying an aircraft these days, at least when it comes to commercial air travel, is not sufficiently demanding physically to justify excessive worry about medical condition, whereas the value of experience continues to increase every day.
Look at the accident record. How many accidents were due to slow reflexes, and how many were due to poor judgment? Reflexes deteriorate with age, but judgment improves (not because of age itself, but because of the increased experience that usually comes with age).
Think back to that Colgan Air crash. The pilots were young indeed, and perhaps they had cat-like reflexes in consequence; but they made all the wrong decisions, and so, instead of rapidly getting out of trouble, they rapidly got deeper into it. Would a 65-year-old pilot with thousands of hours of experience in similar situations have made the same wrong decisions? Would he have even allowed himself to get into trouble to begin with?
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I'm of two minds on this issue.
First, I think this is partly due to older pilots seeing their pensions dry up and wanting to work longer. I can't blame them for wanting that.
However, anything that makes more people eligible to either become, or in this case, remain, pilots keeps the supply and demand curves stacked against those trying to enter the profession. Regardless of the fact that these older pilots may themselves be paid more, they are still taking up a vacancy that would otherwise have to be filled by the market of incoming pilots. This will add to all the factors making wages lower in this profession.
Adding to this, for both good and bad, increasing the retirement age will encourage more retiring military pilots to look at the airlines. When the mandatory retirement age was 60, a pilot who left the military at age 42 probably wouldn't consider the airlines--18 years isn't that long of a career. At 65, it's more appealing, and 70, definitely so. These pilots also already have pensions to get them through the early low-wage years. Again, this will add to the supply of pilots.
On the other hand, someday I'll be one of those guys, and maybe I'll be able to take advantage of it!
First, I think this is partly due to older pilots seeing their pensions dry up and wanting to work longer. I can't blame them for wanting that.
However, anything that makes more people eligible to either become, or in this case, remain, pilots keeps the supply and demand curves stacked against those trying to enter the profession. Regardless of the fact that these older pilots may themselves be paid more, they are still taking up a vacancy that would otherwise have to be filled by the market of incoming pilots. This will add to all the factors making wages lower in this profession.
Adding to this, for both good and bad, increasing the retirement age will encourage more retiring military pilots to look at the airlines. When the mandatory retirement age was 60, a pilot who left the military at age 42 probably wouldn't consider the airlines--18 years isn't that long of a career. At 65, it's more appealing, and 70, definitely so. These pilots also already have pensions to get them through the early low-wage years. Again, this will add to the supply of pilots.
On the other hand, someday I'll be one of those guys, and maybe I'll be able to take advantage of it!
' so, has anyone actually seen anything official about raising the age to 70? I haven't ...so maybe we should just wait until it makes the news shows'
Er, exactly, I suspect this is a big wind up..
Er, exactly, I suspect this is a big wind up..
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Why all the angst over pilot age...last I heard you had two pilots up front, with most of you fighting tooth and nail for CRM, young 200 hr marsh mellows in the right seat..
So what's the problem?...you have some experience in the left seat...and a new guy in the right...that's the perfect combination right? or are you worried that the FO won't be able to handle a plane all by himself if the captain drops over?
Or maybe you would rather put two 200 hr pilot's up front?
So what's the problem?...you have some experience in the left seat...and a new guy in the right...that's the perfect combination right? or are you worried that the FO won't be able to handle a plane all by himself if the captain drops over?
Or maybe you would rather put two 200 hr pilot's up front?
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On the only occasion he failed an elderly pilot, for confusion in his case, this individual promptly obtained his medical certificate elsewhere.
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Well he didn't go into that but given this particular doctor's reliance on the aviation industry for his business I'm sure he alerted the authority involved, to do otherwise would be medical practice suicide.
Since he does medicals for aging pilots in the Pacific who work for next to nothing, maybe the guy went to another country.
I was also told that instead of failing elderly pilots for mental problems he decided to communicate with their wives in case they could apply some leverage to give up flying, but when the wife answered the phone with a squeaky voice and the 1960's clock chiming in the background, he came to the conclusion the wives were in just as bad a shape.
I'm over 60 myself so it's not as if if I'm a young guy who wants to move up, but the real bonus turning 60, and there's not many, is that I don't have to fly with over 60 F/O's in US airspace any more.
Whoopee.
Since he does medicals for aging pilots in the Pacific who work for next to nothing, maybe the guy went to another country.
I was also told that instead of failing elderly pilots for mental problems he decided to communicate with their wives in case they could apply some leverage to give up flying, but when the wife answered the phone with a squeaky voice and the 1960's clock chiming in the background, he came to the conclusion the wives were in just as bad a shape.
I'm over 60 myself so it's not as if if I'm a young guy who wants to move up, but the real bonus turning 60, and there's not many, is that I don't have to fly with over 60 F/O's in US airspace any more.
Whoopee.
Last edited by skol; 29th Aug 2010 at 06:02.
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As a Baby Boomer, I feel I can comment "from within". I get the distinct impression that there are a few amongst our Boomer ("it's all about me,me, always me") generation who, if they get this extension to age 70 accepted, in five years time will be pushing for an extension to age 75.
......so, has anyone actually seen anything official .......
I maintained a Class 1 Aviation Med. to age 74, even tho' I wasn't employed, and only because I went to renew it was a problem discovered, and dealt with, unlike the - likely - 100% of drivers hurtling towards me at a closing speed of 220 kph. who don't even know they have a problem, until they wake up dead one morning - or hit me on the road.
I'd rather fly behind a medically monitored pilot, than drive down the road in the face of the vast number of unmonitored drivers.
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AnthonyGA:
Think back to that Colgan Air crash. The pilots were young indeed, and perhaps they had cat-like reflexes in consequence; but they made all the wrong decisions, and so, instead of rapidly getting out of trouble, they rapidly got deeper into it. Would a 65-year-old pilot with thousands of hours of experience in similar situations have made the same wrong decisions? Would he have even allowed himself to get into trouble to begin with?
Think back to that Colgan Air crash. The pilots were young indeed, and perhaps they had cat-like reflexes in consequence; but they made all the wrong decisions, and so, instead of rapidly getting out of trouble, they rapidly got deeper into it. Would a 65-year-old pilot with thousands of hours of experience in similar situations have made the same wrong decisions? Would he have even allowed himself to get into trouble to begin with?
Think of Crossair BAe 146 crash in 2001...
Captain 56 y/o with 20000 hours and yet managed to fly a VOR approach without adjusting V/S as the speed was reduced. Resulting in the path gradually becoming steeper and steeper until CFIT 3 nm short of runway. Not to mention a bunch of other mistakes, such as going below minimum without runway in sight. The final report is scary read, as it goes into great detail about the commanders history. Impressive that he managed to stay alive for such a long career. Maybe he got away unharmed from the incidents the report mentions in the past because he had not yet fallen below your "100 threshold" of acceptable performance mentioned in one of your post a couple of pages back.
Some may hack it at old age, some not. Better to make a cut-off so no one slips through. Too much "buddy-buddy friendliness" keeping people in the business already, that should have been hauled out. The only effective regulation for keeping the bad old ones away is to keep everyone away.