Age 70 for international pilots?
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My last First Officer is a case in point.
Forty two, and slips off into a snooze at a moments notice, during cruise.
Forty two, and slips off into a snooze at a moments notice, during cruise.
It is the window stare. You let the old gummer drone on and on about something and look out the window. Let him spin himself up about his latest gripe and don't acknowledge that he has said a word. It truly is great fun. Unless it is necessitated by an SOP you will not get me to respond to anything you say. Saftey of flight, I'm all in, but ramblings of an old gomper don't draw enough water to need a nod. You antiques are like using a laser pointer to entertain a dog. Both of you trying to catch something you will never get. The dog= the light, you old coots= your youth
I highly suspect that is what occurred with you and your "crew". They just don't want to listen to you complain about your bunions, psoriasis or the inadequate quality of your last meal at the Waffle House.
Last edited by lambourne; 1st Sep 2010 at 17:16.
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411A is slipping. He has always told us "his" first officers are the best in the industry, able to deal with any and all situations that may happen. Now suddenly they can't keep their eyes open???
Have you forgotten, 411A?
When was your last flight? 1976?
Have you forgotten, 411A?
When was your last flight? 1976?
Welcome back LAMBOURNE, nicely stirring the debate again. I have to confess that I shared some of your attitude to older pilots in the past when I was a 17 year F/O and often had to 'take care' of ageing Captains. Nevertheless, those guys always had the odd pearl of wisdom to share and many of those 'nuggets' have helped me through a multitude of problems in the years since. That was when retirement was compulsory at 55 in my company. We lost many mentally agile and immensely capable pilots then.
There must be some 'gummers' who have ability, personality and the capabililty to match your exacting standards? If they ask you about your day, your interests, if you would like a cup of coffee, do you cut them all dead? They are all fellow passengers on the path through life and your outright rejection of their experience, interest and ability is appalling. I wonder what airline you fly for and to what standards. CRM must be pretty low on the agenda.
All said, I do think it sad if the older guys soldier on, for whatever reason, and do not recognise the deterioration in themselves. I am coming up to 64 and can still cut it with you on any terms, be it a/c handling, cognitive ability, staying awake, or CRM. Personally I would not support a retirement extension to 70 as the physical/mental implications escalate rapidly after 65, for some it's long before that. A cutoff at 65 seems right to me, I love this job but enough will be enough. At the end of the day, I would sooner retire at any age than have the likes of Lambourne to look for age related faults in me and be able to find them.
There must be some 'gummers' who have ability, personality and the capabililty to match your exacting standards? If they ask you about your day, your interests, if you would like a cup of coffee, do you cut them all dead? They are all fellow passengers on the path through life and your outright rejection of their experience, interest and ability is appalling. I wonder what airline you fly for and to what standards. CRM must be pretty low on the agenda.
All said, I do think it sad if the older guys soldier on, for whatever reason, and do not recognise the deterioration in themselves. I am coming up to 64 and can still cut it with you on any terms, be it a/c handling, cognitive ability, staying awake, or CRM. Personally I would not support a retirement extension to 70 as the physical/mental implications escalate rapidly after 65, for some it's long before that. A cutoff at 65 seems right to me, I love this job but enough will be enough. At the end of the day, I would sooner retire at any age than have the likes of Lambourne to look for age related faults in me and be able to find them.
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Pretty much all the over 60 pilots on this board consider themselves to be better than the younger ones in all areas, and do not suffer from anything age related.
I can only conclude that aging is like getting drunk, you think you getter better and better when in reality the opposite happens. The only ones who notice are the people around you.
ManaAdaSystem, who got delayed today because the previous captain (age 63) forgot to sign the tech log.
I can only conclude that aging is like getting drunk, you think you getter better and better when in reality the opposite happens. The only ones who notice are the people around you.
ManaAdaSystem, who got delayed today because the previous captain (age 63) forgot to sign the tech log.
Well, ManadAdsystem or whatever it is,
The opposite of what you say is also true. Its the young, cocky, arrogant know-it-alls who represent a big danger in our industry. You have the answer to everything and surely could never make an error or mistake, in your estimation. Nobody is perfect, and you will be found wanting some day, sooner or later. We over 60's do not have the arrogance to think we are better than you, as good will do, thank you. Our depth of experience weighs in the balance.
Delayed last week by an oversleeping F/O, by the way.........
The opposite of what you say is also true. Its the young, cocky, arrogant know-it-alls who represent a big danger in our industry. You have the answer to everything and surely could never make an error or mistake, in your estimation. Nobody is perfect, and you will be found wanting some day, sooner or later. We over 60's do not have the arrogance to think we are better than you, as good will do, thank you. Our depth of experience weighs in the balance.
Delayed last week by an oversleeping F/O, by the way.........
I know I shouldn't rise to the bait but I will anyway!
On a previous thread I related the tale of the young F/O who fell asleep on me between the OM and 500 feet. He was there with me at the approach fix but he had gone 1,000 feet later.
I also related the tale of the young F/O who fell asleep on me during an SID from LOWW and HE was the PF not the PNF!
I also cannot tell you how many times I and the rest of the crew have been standing there at checkout in the hotel lobby while young lochinvar has had to be dragged out of bed claiming that he doesn't understand Zulu (or UTC if you insist).
On a previous thread I related the tale of the young F/O who fell asleep on me between the OM and 500 feet. He was there with me at the approach fix but he had gone 1,000 feet later.
I also related the tale of the young F/O who fell asleep on me during an SID from LOWW and HE was the PF not the PNF!
I also cannot tell you how many times I and the rest of the crew have been standing there at checkout in the hotel lobby while young lochinvar has had to be dragged out of bed claiming that he doesn't understand Zulu (or UTC if you insist).
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Delayed last week by an oversleeping F/O, by the way.........
Same for a flight from Europe to the states that was canceled a couple of weeks ago. Gummer Captain had to go to hospital for chest pains on layover. Return flight canceled at a significant cost to the company. The only good news is it appears the antique pilot will not be returning to the cockpit. One victory for the good guys!
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lambourne
I was delayed over 3 hours by a 30 year old woman copilot who forgot her purse somewhere and had to wait for a telex from the FAA for her ticket.
She was flying with another captain and stuck in KMDW.
As I picked up the second half of the trip, she was my copilot from KIAD to KMDW and I briefed the approach. Circling to land (VMC ) at night in snow. Made approach to runway 4, made right traffic for 13 and I told her as soon as we start to circle and leave the first localizer, to tune up the landing runway ILS and slew the HSI course selector to the landing runway course.
She said she had never heard of that.
When we got on the ground I explained to her that using an ILS at night to confirm glideslope and proper runway at a critical length field might be a good idea...and as she was just sitting there would it be too much trouble for her to do it.
She was 30 and didn't know too much about flying or about keeping track of her purse.
I was delayed over 3 hours by a 30 year old woman copilot who forgot her purse somewhere and had to wait for a telex from the FAA for her ticket.
She was flying with another captain and stuck in KMDW.
As I picked up the second half of the trip, she was my copilot from KIAD to KMDW and I briefed the approach. Circling to land (VMC ) at night in snow. Made approach to runway 4, made right traffic for 13 and I told her as soon as we start to circle and leave the first localizer, to tune up the landing runway ILS and slew the HSI course selector to the landing runway course.
She said she had never heard of that.
When we got on the ground I explained to her that using an ILS at night to confirm glideslope and proper runway at a critical length field might be a good idea...and as she was just sitting there would it be too much trouble for her to do it.
She was 30 and didn't know too much about flying or about keeping track of her purse.
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She was 30 and didn't know too much about flying or about keeping track of her purse.
Speaking of MDW did you guys get those auto brakes figured out yet? Rode SWA many years ago. It was -300 and recall the A/T being covered because SWA didn't want to train you guys how to use the thing. Must have realized it was they were going to raise the age. Can't teach OLD dogs new tricks.
Also, SWA is the evil empire that was hard and fast to allow two old gummers on domestic flights. Exactly what I would want, TWO 64 year olds flying me around! If I was going to some obscure SWA destinaintion then I would opt for the next flight versus the geriatric ward flying me around.
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the incident I am talking about happened about 10 years ago and our airline flew from KIAD to KMDW. We no longer do that ''run''. And I don't fly for southwest.
your airline hired the gummers and can fire them if they don't fly well...don't be afraid to report someone who really isn't cutting the mustard.
your airline hired the gummers and can fire them if they don't fly well...don't be afraid to report someone who really isn't cutting the mustard.
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hotel charlie
haven't you been reading the thread? if lambourne can make fun of an old guy who lost his passport and its delay, why can't i point out how a young person delayed a flight LONGER cuz she didn't have her ticket. I added that it was a woman, since most guys don't carry their licenses in their purse...you may be an exception.
haven't you been reading the thread? if lambourne can make fun of an old guy who lost his passport and its delay, why can't i point out how a young person delayed a flight LONGER cuz she didn't have her ticket. I added that it was a woman, since most guys don't carry their licenses in their purse...you may be an exception.
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So your story is that you had a female FO having a bad day, 10 years ago!!!
Come on give me a break! You haven't broken a nail on your pinky too have you?
Today 16:47
Come on give me a break! You haven't broken a nail on your pinky too have you?
Today 16:47
The stories I presented all took place within the past couple of months, or as the gummers like to think....a moment ago.
In addition to being out of touch, hornet is also a fine example of a sexist. I bet all the GILF's at the retirement home are goning to love him.
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Lambourne:
you have proven your worth. 10 years ago ; I still remember it as well as if it were yesterday. Alzheimers is a serious condition and you are tacky to use that illness/condition for your own gains.
That female pilot ended up furloughed. Hey, maybe she went to your airline and you will fly with her someday...hope your not late.
Sad little Lambourne. no one plays with him anymore. now go take a time out, put the dunce cap on your head and turn away from the class.
you have proven your worth. 10 years ago ; I still remember it as well as if it were yesterday. Alzheimers is a serious condition and you are tacky to use that illness/condition for your own gains.
That female pilot ended up furloughed. Hey, maybe she went to your airline and you will fly with her someday...hope your not late.
Sad little Lambourne. no one plays with him anymore. now go take a time out, put the dunce cap on your head and turn away from the class.
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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I think it is time for a reality check. Read again what lambourne says about his attitude and behavior towards senior captains between the ages of sixty and sixty five.
Do any of you really think that any self respecting senior captain or any decent airline would let him continually get away with it? Maybe there are a couple of milder and meeker captains who would let his behavior pass but the vast majority of senior captains are thoroughly competent and capable people who, with flight safety in mind, would be down on him like a ton of bricks, then the word would get around. It would only be necessary for lambourne to be thrown off flights twice and he would get a 'Please Explain' letter and an interview with management, certainly in a properly run airline.
lambourne is a dreamer, he is telling us what he would like to do, (and we are rising to the bait!), the fact that he chooses to fly as an FO when he could be in command says a lot too. lambourne is in fantasy land, he is a Walter Mitty and he needs professional help.
Do any of you really think that any self respecting senior captain or any decent airline would let him continually get away with it? Maybe there are a couple of milder and meeker captains who would let his behavior pass but the vast majority of senior captains are thoroughly competent and capable people who, with flight safety in mind, would be down on him like a ton of bricks, then the word would get around. It would only be necessary for lambourne to be thrown off flights twice and he would get a 'Please Explain' letter and an interview with management, certainly in a properly run airline.
lambourne is a dreamer, he is telling us what he would like to do, (and we are rising to the bait!), the fact that he chooses to fly as an FO when he could be in command says a lot too. lambourne is in fantasy land, he is a Walter Mitty and he needs professional help.
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all you gummers out there ;-)
remember the bill murray movie, "Stripes" (nice shot of a military sabreliner taxiing in/T39)?
Remember the guy known as PSYCHO...Don't touch me or my stuff or I'll kill you?
Lambourne and PSYCHO...cut from the same cloth.
What we need is Sgt. Hulka to tell Lambourne to knock it off francis.
remember the bill murray movie, "Stripes" (nice shot of a military sabreliner taxiing in/T39)?
Remember the guy known as PSYCHO...Don't touch me or my stuff or I'll kill you?
Lambourne and PSYCHO...cut from the same cloth.
What we need is Sgt. Hulka to tell Lambourne to knock it off francis.
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In my last organization there was a 69 year old flight examiner, he is tops on his profession and a very popular Captain as well with those in the trenches every day. I just pulled the plug at 62.5 because it ceased to be fun!
Every pilot should be judged on his merits and medical the rest is foolish and unfair.
Every pilot should be judged on his merits and medical the rest is foolish and unfair.
Bottums Up
Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
Pretty much all the over 60 pilots on this board consider themselves to be better than the younger ones in all areas, and do not suffer from anything age related.
It's the ageist view that is offensive. Merit, performance, medical competency, and desire to do the job, should be the pre-requisites, not some arbitrary age.