Age 70 for international pilots?
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: LPPR
Age: 66
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Miles To Go...
I'm a GA pilot and wish to apologize for intruding, but I'm amazed at some of the posts I've read in this thread.
Flying is my passion, and professionally I'm a 52 yo surgeon and professor of surgery in an University Hospital.
The bottomline in both professions is SAFETY, centered on PAX or patient.
Both in the air and in the OR, I've always considered safety depending on proficiency, strict adherence to rules, be it protocols or SOP, and physical and mental capability to perform.
But most of all, I deeply believe it's far beyond individuality and should be centered on TEAMWORK. Flight safety is, in my opinion a CREW thing and the team cohesion should be the ultimate goal.
It should, then, depend on respect, willingness to teach and learn, keeping an open mind to other's opinions, irrespective of their age, but bearing in mind that what we loose in the gesture (physical or mental) is gained in experience throughout the years.
It's also about letting go of our egoes and keeping the door open not to hold back sharing and criticism when needed.
The posts I've been eagerly reading in this thread sometimes appear to tell the opposite, and diminish the highest standards of the "pilot profession", that I so deeply admire and try to reproduce in my surgical teams.
As in surgery, age per se should not be regarded as a limiting factor, as long as the other criteria are present and verified.
Thanks and fly safe
JCM
Flying is my passion, and professionally I'm a 52 yo surgeon and professor of surgery in an University Hospital.
The bottomline in both professions is SAFETY, centered on PAX or patient.
Both in the air and in the OR, I've always considered safety depending on proficiency, strict adherence to rules, be it protocols or SOP, and physical and mental capability to perform.
But most of all, I deeply believe it's far beyond individuality and should be centered on TEAMWORK. Flight safety is, in my opinion a CREW thing and the team cohesion should be the ultimate goal.
It should, then, depend on respect, willingness to teach and learn, keeping an open mind to other's opinions, irrespective of their age, but bearing in mind that what we loose in the gesture (physical or mental) is gained in experience throughout the years.
It's also about letting go of our egoes and keeping the door open not to hold back sharing and criticism when needed.
The posts I've been eagerly reading in this thread sometimes appear to tell the opposite, and diminish the highest standards of the "pilot profession", that I so deeply admire and try to reproduce in my surgical teams.
As in surgery, age per se should not be regarded as a limiting factor, as long as the other criteria are present and verified.
Thanks and fly safe
JCM
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Paris, France
Posts: 350
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps I can inject a bit of hard science into this debate.
Correlation is not causation. In other words, just because you see a link between A and B does not mean that A causes B, or that B causes A.
There is a correlation between increasing age and physical deterioration and disability. However, age alone doesn't cause these.
The correlation exists for aircraft as well as people. The older an aircraft is, the more likely it is to fail. However, no regulation that I'm aware of requires aircraft to be scrapped beyond a certain chronological age. Should all DC-3s be declared un-airworthy because of their age? It's exactly the same question that exists for aging pilots.
Currently, DC-3s can continue to fly as long as they are certified airworthy, and age doesn't enter into it. Is there a reason why this should not also be the case for pilots? If a pilot passes all the tests, why should he be forcibly retired just because of age? If the tests don't prove him competent, then the tests need to change.
If you start assuming that age is synonymous with incompetence, then should you extend this to other correlations that haven't been proven to be causation? For example, black people have a much higher incidence of severe hypertension than white people. Should black pilots be denied medicals because their race is correlated with higher incidence of hypertension? Or should black pilots simply be tested using the same criteria as white pilots, and then be issued medical certifications if they pass the tests, irrespective of race?
Women tolerate high accelerations much better than men. Should men be denied medical certification for flying fighter airplanes because their sex is correlated with a lower tolerance for high Gs? Or should both men and women be tested using the same criteria, with anyone passing the tests being allowed to become a pilot?
Be careful what you wish for.
Correlation is not causation. In other words, just because you see a link between A and B does not mean that A causes B, or that B causes A.
There is a correlation between increasing age and physical deterioration and disability. However, age alone doesn't cause these.
The correlation exists for aircraft as well as people. The older an aircraft is, the more likely it is to fail. However, no regulation that I'm aware of requires aircraft to be scrapped beyond a certain chronological age. Should all DC-3s be declared un-airworthy because of their age? It's exactly the same question that exists for aging pilots.
Currently, DC-3s can continue to fly as long as they are certified airworthy, and age doesn't enter into it. Is there a reason why this should not also be the case for pilots? If a pilot passes all the tests, why should he be forcibly retired just because of age? If the tests don't prove him competent, then the tests need to change.
If you start assuming that age is synonymous with incompetence, then should you extend this to other correlations that haven't been proven to be causation? For example, black people have a much higher incidence of severe hypertension than white people. Should black pilots be denied medicals because their race is correlated with higher incidence of hypertension? Or should black pilots simply be tested using the same criteria as white pilots, and then be issued medical certifications if they pass the tests, irrespective of race?
Women tolerate high accelerations much better than men. Should men be denied medical certification for flying fighter airplanes because their sex is correlated with a lower tolerance for high Gs? Or should both men and women be tested using the same criteria, with anyone passing the tests being allowed to become a pilot?
Be careful what you wish for.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: US
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Currently, DC-3s can continue to fly as long as they are certified airworthy, and age doesn't enter into it. Is there a reason why this should not also be the case for pilots?
If you take your comparison of a DC-3 it is extremely flawed. There are not too many DC-3 flying that contain 100% of their original parts. In fact if you compare the engine to the heart of the airplane I suspect there is not ONE DC-3 flying on its original engines. If it is then it would have had them overhauled many many time. Do that to a person and you lose your medical.
For arguments sake, say you took a new DC-3 off the assembly line brand new in 1935. You put that airplane in a hangar and don't fly it, but you maintain it in new condition. No corrosion, keep the engines pickled and it in like new condition until today's date. That airplane is 85 years old. In this case the airplane would meet those performance specs from flight manual spot on. The airplane/machine doesn't know age so it has the same performance at 0 years as it does at 85 if maintained in like new condition.
Now we take an 85 year old man. He has maintained good health and you ask him to run a 40 yard dash in the same amount of time as he did in his teens (remember machines don't age so to compare we will take the theorized optimum performance age of adults). He is not going to be able to run as fast in his mid 80's as he did in his 20's. Heck most of the gummers I fly with can't find their car in the employee lot after a 6 day trip.
A human is a continuously operating entity. A machine like an airplane is started and stopped. Machines can be completely shutdown and rebuilt with NEW parts from the factory. Humans not so much and the aging process for humans and machines is very different.
65 in the US was only about money. The senator (Ted Stevens) that backed the legislation to push age 65 through on a rider to a bill was forced out of office due to a government indictment for misdeeds and the coup de' grace is that he was killed in an airplane crash last month by an over 60 pilot. Sometimes there is justice.
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Arizona USA
Posts: 8,571
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sometimes there is justice.
The old timers control the process, and if they lobby hard enough (and I suspect they will) age 70 is within reach, in a few years.
Even many younger pilots seem to like the present age 65 agenda, as wages have stagnated and company funded pension plans at some carriers have....gone away.
In short, there is nothing much lambourne can do about it, except of course, bit*h and moan.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: US
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The old timers control the process, and if they lobby hard enough (and I suspect they will) age 70 is within reach
Interesting that you could not land a job with a reputable US company over the years. With your age you would have been prime for some of the serious hiring booms that occurred over the years. You like to talk about pensions for the the legacy pilots but you speak out your arse. While the A-plan was terminated at most of the US carriers the B-funds remain intact. In fact the pilots that are hanging on should have significant amounts of money in their B-funds. But the freaking geniuses have some terrible investing skills. They know better than the fund manager and tend to either make poor choices with their own best knowledge or borrow money from the account to buy a Corvette (yes, last guy I flew with did that,
moron)The good news for you 411 or should I say mendoza, is that I have enough in my B-fund now to retire at 60. Hell I can even go at 55. That is the best part. I don't define myself by what I do and walking away and living my life with a tidy sum is good for me. Of course by the time I retire I am sure you will be taking a dirt nap. Hasta La Vista Mendoza.
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NW
Posts: 269
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is a conversation relegated to the same place where CRM lives, where you hire 200 hour pilots, why Airbus tails come off....uniquely airline, uniquely union....
I guess it's too much to ask that the best pilots get the job....
It's all moot...chief pilots will either keep their buddies in the jobs, or hire marsh mellows they can control.
I guess it's too much to ask that the best pilots get the job....
It's all moot...chief pilots will either keep their buddies in the jobs, or hire marsh mellows they can control.
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: uk
Age: 75
Posts: 588
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think lambourne has a very valid point, albeit I do not think his prestentation of it does him any credit whatsoever.
1 am 62 and I agree whole heartally with no 2 over 60's in the cockpit together, regardless of experience or how many marathons we can run. We have the experience but no longer the stamina for long nights. The rule in Europe for Public Transport is this, is it the same in the States?
For many years the G111 crash at Houston has been used by my company for CRM (or rather the lack of it) training. This crash was a pure CRM issue. I have noticed as a check pilot that older pilots can sometimes dump CRM and tunnel vision when a confusing scenarios occurs. The other CRM issue highlighted by this crash is the unsafe practice of crewing 2 Captains together or even worse a Captain and the Chief Pilot. The safest crew is a Captain (MAX 65) and an experienced, polite and competent F/O (pref under 40). I say competent because I have flown with a few who are not, whether it be ability, attitude or both.
Lambourne very rudely points out the limitations of older Captains, I think we should remind him of some of the worse habits that we older ones have had to put up with.
The worst one for me was the steely young thing that thought doing a cross wind landing involved using into wind rudder and downwind aileron. Wow, that was fun during the resultant go-around.When quizzed the answer was "I can never remember which way it is"!
Lambourne, I think it is time to wind your neck in and get on with whatever job you have and perform in the cockpit in a professional CRM manner. From your rants here I am not sure you are capable of doing that. But as far as 70 as the age for pro pilots is concerned I am with you. If they want to stay flying to pay for the 4th wife and kids let them be 20,000 ft plus relief pilots, not the guy punching the buttons in the busy TMA
1 am 62 and I agree whole heartally with no 2 over 60's in the cockpit together, regardless of experience or how many marathons we can run. We have the experience but no longer the stamina for long nights. The rule in Europe for Public Transport is this, is it the same in the States?
For many years the G111 crash at Houston has been used by my company for CRM (or rather the lack of it) training. This crash was a pure CRM issue. I have noticed as a check pilot that older pilots can sometimes dump CRM and tunnel vision when a confusing scenarios occurs. The other CRM issue highlighted by this crash is the unsafe practice of crewing 2 Captains together or even worse a Captain and the Chief Pilot. The safest crew is a Captain (MAX 65) and an experienced, polite and competent F/O (pref under 40). I say competent because I have flown with a few who are not, whether it be ability, attitude or both.
Lambourne very rudely points out the limitations of older Captains, I think we should remind him of some of the worse habits that we older ones have had to put up with.
The worst one for me was the steely young thing that thought doing a cross wind landing involved using into wind rudder and downwind aileron. Wow, that was fun during the resultant go-around.When quizzed the answer was "I can never remember which way it is"!
Lambourne, I think it is time to wind your neck in and get on with whatever job you have and perform in the cockpit in a professional CRM manner. From your rants here I am not sure you are capable of doing that. But as far as 70 as the age for pro pilots is concerned I am with you. If they want to stay flying to pay for the 4th wife and kids let them be 20,000 ft plus relief pilots, not the guy punching the buttons in the busy TMA
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: US
Posts: 72
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mendoza (411A) at least I can retire. Unlike you, forced to beg a government entity to allow you to hang around like a dingleberry. Glad my life is not dependent on someone buying off on a "old man" law. Of course as the resident town bike of aviation you must be used to waiting to turn your next trick. Eventually you'll run out of alleys to ply your trade.
In the meantime I will enjoy pimping you old coots on every mistake you make in and out of the cockpit. Which by the way you Gompers give me plenty of material.
In the meantime I will enjoy pimping you old coots on every mistake you make in and out of the cockpit. Which by the way you Gompers give me plenty of material.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Kalifornia
Age: 56
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fistacuffs
Boy, it sure is getting nasty around here! Can't you guys play nice?
Let us cut to the chase. The medical certification in the USA is a joke. My airline is full of clinically obese pilots. I am not exaggerating! We have pilots flying who are 100 lbs overweight. The truth is that many pilots would fail a real flight physical. But in this day of political correctness and zero personal responsibility, there is always the threat of law suits.
Most local FAA Doctors develop personal relationships with their patient/pilots and they don't want to threaten a man's livelihood. I understand that, but the result is a watered down hypocritical situation. It is just a fact of life.
soap box
Let us cut to the chase. The medical certification in the USA is a joke. My airline is full of clinically obese pilots. I am not exaggerating! We have pilots flying who are 100 lbs overweight. The truth is that many pilots would fail a real flight physical. But in this day of political correctness and zero personal responsibility, there is always the threat of law suits.
Most local FAA Doctors develop personal relationships with their patient/pilots and they don't want to threaten a man's livelihood. I understand that, but the result is a watered down hypocritical situation. It is just a fact of life.
soap box
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: alameda
Posts: 1,053
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lambourne, you are good at looking things up...will you find out how old the pilots (plural) were on the flight that just crashed in china (EMB190 overshoot).
Please post.
And to the rest of you.
Do you recall a Western Airlines (the only way to fly) and a CRM problem that lead to a DC10 landing on a closed runway in Mexico? for some reason I think lambourne must be the spitting image of the copilot on that one.
Please post.
And to the rest of you.
Do you recall a Western Airlines (the only way to fly) and a CRM problem that lead to a DC10 landing on a closed runway in Mexico? for some reason I think lambourne must be the spitting image of the copilot on that one.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver Island
Posts: 2,517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
lambourne maybe the best way for you to demonstrate the superiority of young pilots over us older ones is to get into an airplane with one of us and we can each demonstrate our airplane handling skills with an independent observer scoring our abilities.
If you are interested I am easy to find as I use my real name here and am quite comfortable with having you visit me and show me your superior skills.
If you are interested I am easy to find as I use my real name here and am quite comfortable with having you visit me and show me your superior skills.
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
dont even bother
Lamb will become old someday ( do you know that Lamby? ). But probably he 
wont have anyone around, not even his family. Can you imagine what kind of Senior he will be? Based on his Junior comments he is already not worth the time...
He is now training himself to be alone, so when the future reaches him he will be use to it.
Now lets go back and have a mature conversation. Send the kids to play in the mud.
V 50
wont have anyone around, not even his family. Can you imagine what kind of Senior he will be? Based on his Junior comments he is already not worth the time...He is now training himself to be alone, so when the future reaches him he will be use to it.
Now lets go back and have a mature conversation. Send the kids to play in the mud.
V 50
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: US
Posts: 497
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PTH, you got my curiosity up so pulled up the Western 2605 DC10 crash at MEX in 79. The captain and fo were both talked to individually because of rivalry earlier in the month and both sugar coated the problem. The FA said they had a heated argument when she went up so they shouldn't have been flying together. It is hard to do your job properly when you are that angry. Leave your anger at home or call in sick. Because you are.