Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash
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CONF iture,
The JNB-TIP sector for Afriqiyah is blocked at 8:50, which would fit most definitions of Long Haul (usually above 8 or 10 hrs), but that sector isn't typical of the company's route structure. Much of the flying is from TIP to European destinations where the block times are in the range of 3-5 hours. To know for sure you'd have to analyze Afriqiyah's flight program for the A330, but my guess is that their A330 pilots probably see, on average, more sectors than the pilot group Airbus was expressing concern about. The specific concern there is pilots who's average block time and working agreements result in a very low number of monthly sectors, say 8-10 or fewer, with only half of those being handling sectors.
Re, that thread, definitely interesting stuff, but your comment was specifically about what Airbus had stated, and hence my reply relates to that.
Cheers,
ELAC
South Africa to Tripoli qualifies for the long haul category, don't you think ?
There is more than a Flightglobal article, there is a all thread Pilot handling skills under threat, says Airbus with some very interesting stuff to read, maybe you would like to participate.
There is more than a Flightglobal article, there is a all thread Pilot handling skills under threat, says Airbus with some very interesting stuff to read, maybe you would like to participate.
Re, that thread, definitely interesting stuff, but your comment was specifically about what Airbus had stated, and hence my reply relates to that.
Cheers,
ELAC
Phil Squares, or anyone else with ‘information’ (re #1222), would you care to comment on the document Celebrating TAWS ‘Saves’ and perhaps indicate which incident or what factors might relate to this accident.
I note similarities in the procedure being a NPA. The approach chart has no table of altitude vs distance to assist with a continuous descent, and no advisory VS. There are two beacons shown for the approach, and a third for the missed approach; how are these depicted by the FMS/EFIS ND.
VOR not used for the approach?
There is no ground-based distance information, thus consider how the onboard position might be calculated. Does the FMS have GPS input in this aircraft? If only IRS/DME what position updating might be available on a trans-African flight?
Was this aircraft fitted with EGPWS or TAWS (T2CAS). If EGPWS did it require the FMS position or use an embedded GPS (not available for navigation).
Note that all of these features precede any GA event and subsequent handling issues which appear to have an unwarranted focus of attention.
I note similarities in the procedure being a NPA. The approach chart has no table of altitude vs distance to assist with a continuous descent, and no advisory VS. There are two beacons shown for the approach, and a third for the missed approach; how are these depicted by the FMS/EFIS ND.
VOR not used for the approach?
There is no ground-based distance information, thus consider how the onboard position might be calculated. Does the FMS have GPS input in this aircraft? If only IRS/DME what position updating might be available on a trans-African flight?
Was this aircraft fitted with EGPWS or TAWS (T2CAS). If EGPWS did it require the FMS position or use an embedded GPS (not available for navigation).
Note that all of these features precede any GA event and subsequent handling issues which appear to have an unwarranted focus of attention.
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Barit1....."In other words, he knows what NOT to attempt - it's beyond his or the aeroplane's proven experience."....
This comment reminded me of what my primary flight instructor told me at the beginning - and often, all the way through my training. He, quoting from a Clint Eastwood movie ("Dirty Harry"..??):
"A Mans gotta know his limitations."
This is something that has always 'stuck' in my head when flying....and, whether simplistic or not, has always served me well as a good comment on risk management. (Thanks, Tim!
)
This comment reminded me of what my primary flight instructor told me at the beginning - and often, all the way through my training. He, quoting from a Clint Eastwood movie ("Dirty Harry"..??):
"A Mans gotta know his limitations."
This is something that has always 'stuck' in my head when flying....and, whether simplistic or not, has always served me well as a good comment on risk management. (Thanks, Tim!
)
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Guys,
Without loosing my sanity trying read the 60 odd pages of this thread on a Sat connection with dialup speeds
, has there been a report on the accident yet? Do they know what happened please?
Cheers
Without loosing my sanity trying read the 60 odd pages of this thread on a Sat connection with dialup speeds
, has there been a report on the accident yet? Do they know what happened please?Cheers
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The approach chart has no table of altitude vs distance to assist with a continuous descent...
IE: it is a perfect example of a dive/drive procedure, the missed approach being flown at the inner beacon.
It really is quite simple...fly the approach the way it was designed, or...if you can't and the vis is poor, divert.
NB.
And yes, I've flown to TIP many times over the last thirty years, and flown this procedure to runway 09 repeatedly.
Very straightforward and uncomplicated...don't try to reinvent the wheel.
Thanks 411A. You and your views on ‘Dive and Drive’ are well known. Old cultures take time to die out, or like dinosaurs come to a sudden end. 
A major theme of the Approach and Landing Accident Reduction (ALAR) initiative was to encourage regulators/providers to revise procedures and charts to create ‘precision like’ approaches. NDB only approaches pose problems, but operators can prepare their own charts with advisory altitude / range data (where DME/GPS is available); crews can include similar calculations in thier briefings.
Major safety initiatives should not be seen as reinventing the wheel; there are better versions of the ‘stone age’ mentality associated with NPAs and Dive and Drive procedures.
Safety is about reducing unnecessary risk. NPAs statistically have higher risk, maybe not for everyone, but for those individuals who did not know or heed modern advice, this lack of knowledge or inappropriate application, could be fatal.
A major theme of the Approach and Landing Accident Reduction (ALAR) initiative was to encourage regulators/providers to revise procedures and charts to create ‘precision like’ approaches. NDB only approaches pose problems, but operators can prepare their own charts with advisory altitude / range data (where DME/GPS is available); crews can include similar calculations in thier briefings.
Major safety initiatives should not be seen as reinventing the wheel; there are better versions of the ‘stone age’ mentality associated with NPAs and Dive and Drive procedures.
Safety is about reducing unnecessary risk. NPAs statistically have higher risk, maybe not for everyone, but for those individuals who did not know or heed modern advice, this lack of knowledge or inappropriate application, could be fatal.
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....but for those individuals who did not know or heed modern advice, this lack of knowledge or inappropriate application, could be fatal.
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Without loosing my sanity trying read the 60 odd pages of this thread on a Sat connection with dialup speeds, has there been a report on the accident yet? Do they know what happened please?
, has there been a report on the accident yet? Do they know what happened please?
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How refreshing to see someone like Phil Squares who simply appears to stick to relevant facts and in a couple of posts succinctly states what may well have taken place. No axe to grind and no criticism of others - simply providing credible info.
So many others on here just want to waffle and have a go at other posters that much of the content is a complete waste of time but hey ho.
So many others on here just want to waffle and have a go at other posters that much of the content is a complete waste of time but hey ho.
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411A:
In an airplane without autoland capability flying an ILS to bare CAT I minimums, say 200 foot HaTH DA and RVR 1800 in obscuration, is very demanding, more so than an NPA to say, 400 and 1 by a presumably competent pilot (in both types of procedures).
I would suggest otherwise, safetypee, IE: those that do not have the skills to fly these NPA's in a reasonable manner, should stick to ILS approaches only, thereby ensuring their abilities match the results desired.
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In an airplane without autoland capability flying an ILS to bare CAT I minimums, say 200 foot HaTH DA and RVR 1800 in obscuration, is very demanding, more so than an NPA to say, 400 and 1
I expect that many younger pilots whom have never been trained on dive/drive techniques, may well have a similar opinion as yours.
Now we have another Airbus FBW aircraft accident (see other thread re: ISB A321), also apparently during an NPA, this time circling.
I would suggest that rather basic flying skills are being forgotten at an alarming rate, in favor of the constant use of automatics, with the result that....the accident rate has not improved much, if at all.
IE: one set of problems has been exchanged for another, without much benefit.
the accident rate has not improved much, if at all.
IE: one set of problems has been exchanged for another, without much benefit.
IE: one set of problems has been exchanged for another, without much benefit.
significantly.
Safety has increased incredibly since the days of 707 and DC8.
You might want to try ASN for example.
Moreover it's not always lack of talent that kills when flying NPA.
Often it's complacency or overconfidence (It's gonna work...).
Yes you are absolutely right: automation is no excuse for lowering training standards or neglecting basic flying skills.
But I would rather wait for the result of the investigation (CVR should give a good hint) before jumping to conclusions
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Safety has increased incredibly since the days of 707 and DC8.
Pilot performance...not all that much.
We still have CFIT, as a major contributory factor.
A bad sign, IMO.
And further, it is not likely to change for the better, as long as we have poorly trained pilots.
Especially, in the RHS, with the P2F scemes now in vogue in Euroland, and elsewhere.
411A, those that do not have the skills to fly these NPA's in a reasonable manner
Surely, the highest skill is that of thought – being able to choose a suitable option, selecting the lower risk, or utilise risk trapping / mitigating aids. You can still use your hands-on skills to fly an accurate, altitude / distance aided, NPA.
Citing the lack of skill is tantamount to allocating blame.
Many pilots stop their decision making on reaching the first condition that will work without considering a lower risk option. There is unlikely to be a perfect option, but too often, you hear that ‘it’s good enough’; it (NDB approach) may be good enough, but this choice requires skill in judging a better option for the situation (one with added safeguards) and not the minimum option.
Judgment is a quality of airmanship, professionalism, expertise; it represents the highest level of human need – self actualization (Maslow’s hierarchy of needs). Stopping the decision assessment at the hands-on skill level may only satisfy self esteem – the search for respect from others, is this your need; this is not good enough in today’s complex industry.
Lest I be accused of blaming crews because of poor ‘airmanship’, the thinking, evaluation/choice process is affected by many human factors; we have to understand these as part of an accident investigation. Accidents don’t just revolve around people’s abilities, it’s more often the external influences which tip the balance beyond acceptable behavior.
Surely, the highest skill is that of thought – being able to choose a suitable option, selecting the lower risk, or utilise risk trapping / mitigating aids. You can still use your hands-on skills to fly an accurate, altitude / distance aided, NPA.
Citing the lack of skill is tantamount to allocating blame.
Many pilots stop their decision making on reaching the first condition that will work without considering a lower risk option. There is unlikely to be a perfect option, but too often, you hear that ‘it’s good enough’; it (NDB approach) may be good enough, but this choice requires skill in judging a better option for the situation (one with added safeguards) and not the minimum option.
Judgment is a quality of airmanship, professionalism, expertise; it represents the highest level of human need – self actualization (Maslow’s hierarchy of needs). Stopping the decision assessment at the hands-on skill level may only satisfy self esteem – the search for respect from others, is this your need; this is not good enough in today’s complex industry.
Lest I be accused of blaming crews because of poor ‘airmanship’, the thinking, evaluation/choice process is affected by many human factors; we have to understand these as part of an accident investigation. Accidents don’t just revolve around people’s abilities, it’s more often the external influences which tip the balance beyond acceptable behavior.
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I was born on the 707 (8,000 hours) and DC-8 (4,000 hours). For the last 4 years I've made my living on the A320.
The difference is that the old airplanes required direct involvement, planning, and minute by minute awareness in marginal weather or operational challenges. Flying approaches to minimums produced moisture in the palms of your hands.
Today's airplanes, like the A320, only require involvement by exception. You have to change a runway, you are assigned a different arrival - irritants. Most flights are lazy processes of doing what's planned and programmed.
The challenge now is to be ready to do the unexpected, manual, airplane-flying required by unanticipated situations.
The difference is that the old airplanes required direct involvement, planning, and minute by minute awareness in marginal weather or operational challenges. Flying approaches to minimums produced moisture in the palms of your hands.
Today's airplanes, like the A320, only require involvement by exception. You have to change a runway, you are assigned a different arrival - irritants. Most flights are lazy processes of doing what's planned and programmed.
The challenge now is to be ready to do the unexpected, manual, airplane-flying required by unanticipated situations.
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I submit that regular crashes are now just part of the "lo co" business mod
Ethiopian - not a loco
Kenya Airways - not a loco
Gulf Air - not a loco
Lets add some more - Air France A340 runway over run in Canada - a loco?
AA in Jamaica?
I think it's a wider problem than saying it's part of a loco business model.
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P2F
411A
You speak of P2F in "Euroland and elsewhere."
P2F is alive and well in the US of A. I had occasion to enquire about training on behalf of the son of a friend, and the school offered various P2F packages at the end of the CPL course. However, they were smart. Where they advertised training on a local airline, on closer scrutiny it transpired that the training was on the same type that carried passengers, but would be done hauling freight, mostly at night.
Caveat emptor.
You speak of P2F in "Euroland and elsewhere."
P2F is alive and well in the US of A. I had occasion to enquire about training on behalf of the son of a friend, and the school offered various P2F packages at the end of the CPL course. However, they were smart. Where they advertised training on a local airline, on closer scrutiny it transpired that the training was on the same type that carried passengers, but would be done hauling freight, mostly at night.
Caveat emptor.
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Feel free to call me a sceptic, yet I suspect that the Libyans will deliberately take far longer than necessary to publish their findings. If the finger points to any deficiencies within the airline and/or human error, the Libyans will not want this information to be circulated. Whilst Libya has reformed from the dark days when it was allegedly linked to terrorism, it is still far from being a State where information is circulated freely. Whilst other organisations will be assisting in the investigation, I am sure the Libyans will not have relinquished their right of leading the investigation and subsequently publishing the findings.
Not only is a loss of face in the Arab world one of the most embarrassing things someone can endure, the Libyans will be petrified that Afriqiyah's future expansion will be hindered by anything negative that may arise from any findings.
There is also a conflict of interest here since Afriqiyah is owned by the government and the CAA in Libya is.... wholly owned by the government. Post accident investigations are supposed to be fully independent and impartial. The Libyan investigation can only be described as an 'internal' investigation, with some external assistance! Having worked in Libya previously and for a Libyan operator (not government owned!), I would not be at all surprised if the Libyan investigation team are all on first name terms with the senior management in Afriqiyah (most of whom have been in aviation since the pre sanction days with Libyan Arab or Jamahiriya Light Air Transport.).
Having read the brief summary given by Phil Squares on the previous pages, such a combination of possible factors are not what Afriqiyah and the Libyans will want to hear. However if CRM issues are to play here then Afriqiyah cannot be directly blamed since the LCAA framework for CRM training is somewhat laughable and is decades behind industry standard.
Not only is a loss of face in the Arab world one of the most embarrassing things someone can endure, the Libyans will be petrified that Afriqiyah's future expansion will be hindered by anything negative that may arise from any findings.
There is also a conflict of interest here since Afriqiyah is owned by the government and the CAA in Libya is.... wholly owned by the government. Post accident investigations are supposed to be fully independent and impartial. The Libyan investigation can only be described as an 'internal' investigation, with some external assistance! Having worked in Libya previously and for a Libyan operator (not government owned!), I would not be at all surprised if the Libyan investigation team are all on first name terms with the senior management in Afriqiyah (most of whom have been in aviation since the pre sanction days with Libyan Arab or Jamahiriya Light Air Transport.).
Having read the brief summary given by Phil Squares on the previous pages, such a combination of possible factors are not what Afriqiyah and the Libyans will want to hear. However if CRM issues are to play here then Afriqiyah cannot be directly blamed since the LCAA framework for CRM training is somewhat laughable and is decades behind industry standard.
Last edited by Mister Geezer; 4th Aug 2010 at 10:48.
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Just recently there...
I was just there a couple of days ago... Debris field is mostly still there and partially packed up. Some people seemed to be doing something official there... Area widely cordoned off... Heartbreaking event!