Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash
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The Airbus protection systems are still, in some cases, wildly misunderstood by users and non-users alike.
Sun worshipper
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PJ2, quoting
answer :
Utter rubbish. A notice to all pilots had been issued at AF on the 30th April and this deals with modifying the stall recovery procedures, in agreement with Boeing after the analysis of recent accidents like the ColganAir DHC-8 at Buffalo or older ones like the AirbornExpress DC-8 in 1996.
Although, IMO, huge news in terms of our piloting habits, this revised technique, for the time being has absolutely nothing in common with this accident.
A330first-officer;
Quote:
Airbus sent to all types operators an urgent advisory regarding the STALL RECOVERY PROCEDURE:
Was this just issued post-accident and would you have wording or a source of this info? Thanks.
PJ2
Quote:
Airbus sent to all types operators an urgent advisory regarding the STALL RECOVERY PROCEDURE:
Was this just issued post-accident and would you have wording or a source of this info? Thanks.
PJ2
I have a copy of the message and it's been sent worldwide few hours after the incident.
Of course it's related to this incident!
Of course it's related to this incident!
Although, IMO, huge news in terms of our piloting habits, this revised technique, for the time being has absolutely nothing in common with this accident.
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I did some research on the premise, posted earlier, of no airliner accidents before 1909.
The reason why there doesn't appear to be any before 1909 was due to the fact that airliner accident records were not written before then.
The reason why there doesn't appear to be any before 1909 was due to the fact that airliner accident records were not written before then.
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Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash
I know nothing about flying jet aeroplanes, so this is just for general interest. On the 17:00Z Euronews bulletin there was a comment pointing out that this crash involved the same aircraft type as Air France A447. Is it acceptable for the MSM to try to trash the safety record of a type without any relevant data? Can one complain to someone about malicious and ignorant news comments? Just asking...
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Just had a look at the VOR D 09 approach chart and trying to consider any possible simple but catastrophic mistake. At 10 DME and 2000' commence a 3 degree decent. Impact approx 2 miles short of the runway. Just a thought.
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Originally Posted by TwoOneFour
Just an observation, and I do understand that impact forces probably wreaked havoc with the bits, but is the fin pointing away from the runway? The building looks similar to one about 950m from the 09 threshold.
Winds from the west: is it known that the 330 was approaching 09, or is that still assumption?
Winds from the west: is it known that the 330 was approaching 09, or is that still assumption?
S~
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Rest in Peace Cuz B - Bree O'Mara.
A short tribute to my immensely talented and wonderful cousin, Bree, who died in the Afriqiyah crash this week. In your short life you wore many hats, and one was as stewardess. We had so many laughs about your time as a "trolley dolly" in the Middle East Bree and I will treasure your hilarious accounts forever. Our lives will be a darker place with your passing. Love Cuz M.
Farrell;
Caution, I think there are two meanings of "stall" at work here.
The second meaning, referencing the horizontal stab, usually means that the hydraulic motor driving the screw-jack that changes the position of the horizontal stabilizer is stalled. When this happens it is usually through very high air loads; it has nothing directly to do with the first meaning of the word, "stall" which means loss of lift due to high angle of attack.
Indirectly, a stabilizer trimmed all the way to its max Nose UP [NU] position through whatever system fault or pilot input etc, can cause (and has caused) a stall, given other things being equal such as normal CofG, control authority of the elevators, applied level of engine thrust with under-slung engines, etc.
In Normal Law the A320/A330/A340/A380 series cannot normally be stalled. But with sufficient abuse of the controls, (as used here that word is a technical term and is not intended as a criticism of the recent post describing this - I thought that was a helpful post in raising this point), an airplane is just a brick when the air isn't flowing around it happily and will fall out of the sky, "normal laws" notwithstanding.
The airplane and the design obviously aren't miracle-workers which defy either logic or natural laws such as gravity, mass and inertia but once in a while this needs re-stating; they are commercial airplanes and such designs are always...always compromises. In other words, try to do a Lomcovák-type maneuver, (you can't...too much mass, not enough control authority and no big recips to "help"!, but the point is made...), and no "Normal Law" will protect the airplane.
That is where much of the confusion (and bias against) regarding the design emerges.
Lemurian, thanks; I certainly suspected that that was the case, but if someone has a handle called "A330first-officer" one expects that poster knows his stuff and posts with knowledge that has been confirmed first.
PJ2
Quote:
Theoretically no, but in the same way a vertical stabiliser can be overloaded a FBW airbus in Normal Law can be stalled.
Thank you Gaston.
The Airbus protection systems are still, in some cases, wildly misunderstood by users and non-users alike.
Theoretically no, but in the same way a vertical stabiliser can be overloaded a FBW airbus in Normal Law can be stalled.
Thank you Gaston.
The Airbus protection systems are still, in some cases, wildly misunderstood by users and non-users alike.
The second meaning, referencing the horizontal stab, usually means that the hydraulic motor driving the screw-jack that changes the position of the horizontal stabilizer is stalled. When this happens it is usually through very high air loads; it has nothing directly to do with the first meaning of the word, "stall" which means loss of lift due to high angle of attack.
Indirectly, a stabilizer trimmed all the way to its max Nose UP [NU] position through whatever system fault or pilot input etc, can cause (and has caused) a stall, given other things being equal such as normal CofG, control authority of the elevators, applied level of engine thrust with under-slung engines, etc.
In Normal Law the A320/A330/A340/A380 series cannot normally be stalled. But with sufficient abuse of the controls, (as used here that word is a technical term and is not intended as a criticism of the recent post describing this - I thought that was a helpful post in raising this point), an airplane is just a brick when the air isn't flowing around it happily and will fall out of the sky, "normal laws" notwithstanding.
The airplane and the design obviously aren't miracle-workers which defy either logic or natural laws such as gravity, mass and inertia but once in a while this needs re-stating; they are commercial airplanes and such designs are always...always compromises. In other words, try to do a Lomcovák-type maneuver, (you can't...too much mass, not enough control authority and no big recips to "help"!, but the point is made...), and no "Normal Law" will protect the airplane.
That is where much of the confusion (and bias against) regarding the design emerges.
Lemurian, thanks; I certainly suspected that that was the case, but if someone has a handle called "A330first-officer" one expects that poster knows his stuff and posts with knowledge that has been confirmed first.
PJ2
Last edited by PJ2; 13th May 2010 at 18:34. Reason: re-reading
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Specupecupeculationzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Hi guys, as informative as all this can be...the ashes haven't even settled and speculation is rife and already fingering the crew, and airport authorities....not very civil is it?I detect some anti-Libyan sentiment too.Leave the politics and your opinions for now.Let the professional investigation give us more concrete details before we can proceed with any learning in the after math.That Air France 330 unfortunate catapulting from the skies after screwing through the ITCZ was not met with so much affrontage...because the pilots wer perhaps European-home of Airbus?
Am sure no pilot leaves their family to go advertently go and kill people and destroy valuable equipment...and to may be make fools of themselves on pprune...the 'OFFICIAL' judge and jury of air disasters shall we say?
Come on fellas...demonstrate some decensy and respect...they are your fellow aviators...and believe it or not...should the **** hit the fan on YOU...pprune will only be too glad to make a satire out of you...let your conscience respond to that!Be good folks!
Am sure no pilot leaves their family to go advertently go and kill people and destroy valuable equipment...and to may be make fools of themselves on pprune...the 'OFFICIAL' judge and jury of air disasters shall we say?
Come on fellas...demonstrate some decensy and respect...they are your fellow aviators...and believe it or not...should the **** hit the fan on YOU...pprune will only be too glad to make a satire out of you...let your conscience respond to that!Be good folks!
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I don't know about the rest of you, but I'M reading this forum because I am interested in the SPECULATION of pilots on this accident. So speculate away and I'll use my own brain and sift through what I think is useful. Eventually, as always, a full report will be released and speculation will no longer be of interest.
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brize:
For anyone who knows:
As an ICAO member state, to what extent is Libia required to provide party status to Airbus, the engine manufacturer, etc?
Who will read the DFDR and DCVR? France or Germany? Or, can Libia refuse access to the recorders?
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'M reading this forum because I am interested in the SPECULATION of pilots on this accident. So speculate away and I'll use my own brain and sift through what I think is useful. Eventually, as always, a full report will be released and speculation will no longer be of interest.
As an ICAO member state, to what extent is Libia required to provide party status to Airbus, the engine manufacturer, etc?
Who will read the DFDR and DCVR? France or Germany? Or, can Libia refuse access to the recorders?
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Sortie III Whose fault is that? Surely the manufacturer should make sure that their 'perfect' product is understood by all involved?
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Re "How likely is an engine to blow on landing" - this aircraft lost four blades in the last month as a result of a bird strike, the blades were flown into Joburg - took 10 days to repair
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Swiss Cheese
This AP article is a good summary of likely contributing factors.
Libyan Airbus may have been attempting go-around
By SLOBODAN LEKIC (AP) – 2 hours ago
BRUSSELS — The Afriqiyah Airways jet that crashed just before touchdown in Libya may have been attempting a go-around in poor visibility caused by sunlit haze, safety officials and pilots familiar with the airport said Thursday.
The Airbus 330-200 was carrying 103 people from South Africa to the Libyan capital, and a 9-year-old boy from the Netherlands appeared to be the lone survivor.
Both black boxes, the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder, were immediately recovered at the crash site in the capital, Tripoli. Investigators from the United States, France, South Africa, the Netherlands are reportedly helping Libya with the probe into the causes of the accident.
"I am assured that there will be a very thorough investigation, since (the French accident investigation authority) will be party to it and they are one of best accident investigators in the world," said William Voss, president of the U.S.-based Flight Safety Foundation.
He cautioned that "it's important to realize that early assumptions about an accident are often wrong."
Investigators will likely consider technical reasons for the crash, such as catastrophic engine or structural failure just before touchdown. They will also look into whether the pilots were fatigued after a long overnight flight.
Still, safety officials interviewed by The Associated Press say questions have already been raised about the crash because of the condition of the plane's wreckage.
Images and footage from the scene showed a wide debris field, with the aircraft having completely disintegrated, indicating a high-energy impact. But the images did not show any significant evidence of fire, which often accompanies accidents in which the plane's fuel tanks are destroyed.
"I would first look into this, the lack of fire, when searching for a cause. Could it indicate fuel starvation?" said an aviation official who could not be named due to the sensitivity of the matter.
A safety expert who declined to be identified because of possible involvement in the investigation also noted that the lack of a fire may indicate that the plane was low on fuel after the long flight from South Africa.
Pieces of the fuselage appeared to have ended up facing backward — away from the direction of flight — raising the possibility that the Airbus had cartwheeled on impact.
That, in turn, would mean that the plane likely slammed into the ground with one wing tip first, instead of coming down with its wings level — indicating that the pilot may have been banking during the flight's final moments, possibly attempting a go-around after problems on approach.
A frequent cause of aviation disasters during the approach and landing phase is known as "controlled flight into terrain," in which an otherwise airworthy plane is accidentally flown into the ground or water, usually because of the pilots' spatial disorientation.
Tripoli International Airport's navigational systems are considered austere by international standards. On Wednesday, pilots were notified that a key navigational aide was showing false readings due to interference from a construction project — though interference is not uncommon at airports.
The main runway is positioned in an east-west direction, with most arriving aircraft flying in from the east because navigational aides are at that end of the runway and the prevailing wind is from the west. Airliners normally land and take off against the wind because it makes the process easier.
Still, the Afriqiyah Airbus approached the runway from the west, although the airport weather report showed the wind was blowing in the same direction. The pilots were thus looking directly into the sunrise while searching for the runway and also had to contend with an early morning layer of haze that reduced visibility at lower altitude.
A European pilot who has flown to Tripoli numerous times said the standard approach was from the east. He described as "strange" the decision to come in from the opposite direction, particularly in light of the wind direction.
By SLOBODAN LEKIC (AP) – 2 hours ago
BRUSSELS — The Afriqiyah Airways jet that crashed just before touchdown in Libya may have been attempting a go-around in poor visibility caused by sunlit haze, safety officials and pilots familiar with the airport said Thursday.
The Airbus 330-200 was carrying 103 people from South Africa to the Libyan capital, and a 9-year-old boy from the Netherlands appeared to be the lone survivor.
Both black boxes, the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder, were immediately recovered at the crash site in the capital, Tripoli. Investigators from the United States, France, South Africa, the Netherlands are reportedly helping Libya with the probe into the causes of the accident.
"I am assured that there will be a very thorough investigation, since (the French accident investigation authority) will be party to it and they are one of best accident investigators in the world," said William Voss, president of the U.S.-based Flight Safety Foundation.
He cautioned that "it's important to realize that early assumptions about an accident are often wrong."
Investigators will likely consider technical reasons for the crash, such as catastrophic engine or structural failure just before touchdown. They will also look into whether the pilots were fatigued after a long overnight flight.
Still, safety officials interviewed by The Associated Press say questions have already been raised about the crash because of the condition of the plane's wreckage.
Images and footage from the scene showed a wide debris field, with the aircraft having completely disintegrated, indicating a high-energy impact. But the images did not show any significant evidence of fire, which often accompanies accidents in which the plane's fuel tanks are destroyed.
"I would first look into this, the lack of fire, when searching for a cause. Could it indicate fuel starvation?" said an aviation official who could not be named due to the sensitivity of the matter.
A safety expert who declined to be identified because of possible involvement in the investigation also noted that the lack of a fire may indicate that the plane was low on fuel after the long flight from South Africa.
Pieces of the fuselage appeared to have ended up facing backward — away from the direction of flight — raising the possibility that the Airbus had cartwheeled on impact.
That, in turn, would mean that the plane likely slammed into the ground with one wing tip first, instead of coming down with its wings level — indicating that the pilot may have been banking during the flight's final moments, possibly attempting a go-around after problems on approach.
A frequent cause of aviation disasters during the approach and landing phase is known as "controlled flight into terrain," in which an otherwise airworthy plane is accidentally flown into the ground or water, usually because of the pilots' spatial disorientation.
Tripoli International Airport's navigational systems are considered austere by international standards. On Wednesday, pilots were notified that a key navigational aide was showing false readings due to interference from a construction project — though interference is not uncommon at airports.
The main runway is positioned in an east-west direction, with most arriving aircraft flying in from the east because navigational aides are at that end of the runway and the prevailing wind is from the west. Airliners normally land and take off against the wind because it makes the process easier.
Still, the Afriqiyah Airbus approached the runway from the west, although the airport weather report showed the wind was blowing in the same direction. The pilots were thus looking directly into the sunrise while searching for the runway and also had to contend with an early morning layer of haze that reduced visibility at lower altitude.
A European pilot who has flown to Tripoli numerous times said the standard approach was from the east. He described as "strange" the decision to come in from the opposite direction, particularly in light of the wind direction.
Diversification;
Possibly, in the sense that there is no evidence to rule such a notion out. I suspect however, that the loss of almost the entire supporting structure below the horizontal stab motors and associated jacks and what was likely the tumbling of this section, (as evidenced by the rudder damage - the missing top section can be seen in another photograph and the flattened face of the forward-facing fuselage section) that probably left the horizontal stabs in this position - in other words, there is nothing to resist the final resting position, while the vertical stabilizer has fallen away, backwards from the stabilizer, on what remains of the tail structure.
In another photograph, one of the main gear wing-attachment trunions is visible, with the oleo broken off at the very top of the structure, (ie, it's entirely missing.) In the background of this same photo one can see one main-gear tire.
In another photograph of this same area this tire can be seen close-up, damaged with several deep cuts; I suspect the other tire on the left of the photo is one of two nosewheel tires. In yet another photograph, another tire can be seen, similarly deflated, though it is not possible to see damage due to the on-edge perspective of the photograph. There is a section of the wing with what may be a spar, (front or rear) but it looks a bit too small to be an inboard section of the wing where the gear is fastened. Difficult to tell with one photo.
It is difficult to tell too, what the flat section is in the photograph with the partially-seen Mercedes in it; I would say it was outboard wing but the quality, (low pixel count) is too poor to be sure.
Though almost everything remains to be known yet, it is yet to be confirmed:
- that the approach initially used was the ILS to 27, (left hand base leg flown from the south);
- that there was a go-around off 27, from which, a) the accident occurred during a go-around, or a tear-drop turn for an approach to 09, off which the accident occurred;
- that, alternatively, the approach initially used was onto 09 with a right-hand base leg from the south;
- that the attitude of the aircraft was (or was not) unusual at any time during the approach;
- what the actual weather/visibility was at the time of the accident. The winds were 2 - 4 knots with the temp/dew point within 2C.
Has anyone placed the crash site on Google yet? I've seen estimates but no placements and no confirmation of the location of the mosque seen in photographs of the tail section.
Machaca, I don't know how you do it, but thank you for the additional photographs you've posted.
PJ2
Has it any merit?
In another photograph, one of the main gear wing-attachment trunions is visible, with the oleo broken off at the very top of the structure, (ie, it's entirely missing.) In the background of this same photo one can see one main-gear tire.
In another photograph of this same area this tire can be seen close-up, damaged with several deep cuts; I suspect the other tire on the left of the photo is one of two nosewheel tires. In yet another photograph, another tire can be seen, similarly deflated, though it is not possible to see damage due to the on-edge perspective of the photograph. There is a section of the wing with what may be a spar, (front or rear) but it looks a bit too small to be an inboard section of the wing where the gear is fastened. Difficult to tell with one photo.
It is difficult to tell too, what the flat section is in the photograph with the partially-seen Mercedes in it; I would say it was outboard wing but the quality, (low pixel count) is too poor to be sure.
Though almost everything remains to be known yet, it is yet to be confirmed:
- that the approach initially used was the ILS to 27, (left hand base leg flown from the south);
- that there was a go-around off 27, from which, a) the accident occurred during a go-around, or a tear-drop turn for an approach to 09, off which the accident occurred;
- that, alternatively, the approach initially used was onto 09 with a right-hand base leg from the south;
- that the attitude of the aircraft was (or was not) unusual at any time during the approach;
- what the actual weather/visibility was at the time of the accident. The winds were 2 - 4 knots with the temp/dew point within 2C.
Has anyone placed the crash site on Google yet? I've seen estimates but no placements and no confirmation of the location of the mosque seen in photographs of the tail section.
Machaca, I don't know how you do it, but thank you for the additional photographs you've posted.
PJ2
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Hi,
http://www.pprune.org/5691838-post260.html
I can't name "long flight" six hours journey for a A330-200 !
A safety expert ?
http://www.pprune.org/5691838-post260.html
A safety expert who declined to be identified because of possible involvement in the investigation also noted that the lack of a fire may indicate that the plane was low on fuel after the long flight from South Africa.
I can't name "long flight" six hours journey for a A330-200 !
A safety expert ?
I Have Control
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Utterly predictable accident
1 Operating Airbus into TIP or BEN can be risky in low vis with standard poor/unserviceable navaids
2 ATC standard in Libya is poor, and often ATC have no access to current met info, esp anemometer
3 Operating Airbus with part-Libyan crew is often dangerous due to the incompetence and over-confidence of Libyan pilots. Many have little relevant recency, and often have previously flown out-dated primitive aircraft.
4 A330 is too complex an aircraft for the average Libyan crew.
Above comments based on extensive experience operating A320's with Libyans out of TIP and BEN. And current experience on A330.
2 ATC standard in Libya is poor, and often ATC have no access to current met info, esp anemometer
3 Operating Airbus with part-Libyan crew is often dangerous due to the incompetence and over-confidence of Libyan pilots. Many have little relevant recency, and often have previously flown out-dated primitive aircraft.
4 A330 is too complex an aircraft for the average Libyan crew.
Above comments based on extensive experience operating A320's with Libyans out of TIP and BEN. And current experience on A330.