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Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash

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Old 7th Feb 2011, 14:38
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Pretty same stuff anywhere 411A

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Old 7th Feb 2011, 21:22
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Thanks for that video-reminder Confiture ! The last mimic of Bourgeois says it all. . For those that do not speak French, Bourgeois was the Chief Investigator in 1979,and was told by his superiors not to make reports on 2 previous Concorde accidents because it was AF, and " we're not going to bother Air France " he said.
The big question is : is what was possible in the 70s still valid today ?
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Old 8th Feb 2011, 07:51
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Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
The big question is : is what was possible in the 70s still valid today ?
Probably not, because since then there have been too many incidents where soft-pedalling reports for the sake of national pride or corporate well-being have been more trouble than they're worth.
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Old 10th Feb 2011, 12:54
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Probably not, because since then there have been too many incidents where soft-pedalling reports for the sake of national pride or corporate well-being have been more trouble than they're worth.
Which reports do you have in mind DozyWannabe and what have been the troubles that played against their initiators ... ?

What was valid in the 70s was also valid in the 90s is still valid in 2010 and will dominate in 2030.
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Old 22nd Feb 2011, 23:42
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Inference from photos

Throttle Position Inferences-Limitations


While interesting in relation to the local level of destruction, the photo of the thrust levers is not evidence per se of the thrust commanded at the point of impact. The levers may not be in the position that they were post accident, policing of the accident site is evidently questionable, and they may have been moved. The quadrant has evidently been disassociated from the control system and has been subject to high external forces. As such the other components it may have encountered as the cockpit was destroyed may have repositioned the levers from any commanded position. There are on occasions witness marks that can be identified with the major forces that have been encountered, but they may not have been at the time of initial impact, but later for this part of the airframe. These marks if evident would not be indicated in an overview image as provided.

The evidence of the thrust level will come from the DFDR/QAR/DFDAU, EEC's memory and can be identified from the CVR. These sources can also indicate if a command change was initiated immediately prior to the impact.

Overall, not seeing that the industry knowledge base is going to be qualitatively expanded from this event, the overall event is shaping up as a repeat of operations that have resulted in near misses and accidents in the past on various types, not just Airbus products.

Separately, why the profession and industry allows the operation of such approaches given the historically identified elevated associated risk is perplexing. While I am certain that 411 (no disrespect) can fly a perfect approach like this every day, the industry shows that it doesn't on average cope well, and as a consequence, people die. The industry suffers from the malaise of the lack of appropriate infrastructure for hi capacity RPT operations, and lax operational oversight to ensure that the operations comply with the appropriate restrictions that would be applicable for such pitiful facilitation. This is not a Libya centric issue, this exists in irrational operations at airports such as Zurich, Amsterdam, Sydney, Auckland, Narita, Chicago etc.

Easy to bag the dead pilots for the failures of the regulatory and operational programs that are sitting around the campfire singing "Kumbaya" while next of kin bury the dead. Their problems though, are over, and the risk to the passengers remains due to the lack of investment in infrastructure, (and some poor MMI design...)




regards
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Old 23rd Feb 2011, 18:09
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Seen the situation in Tripoli today, it would seem the" LH auditors" are back in FRA and thre are reports of many civil and military pilots defecting .

On the military side, the French "consultants" refurbishing the Mirages F1 are back in France and the only 2 F1s serviceable defected to Malta.

I suspect (but no info on this) that the Airbus maintenance guys are also back home ,and that the Afriqiyah aircraft parked abroad won't be returning soon to Libya and the future of the airline is uncertain.

As to the final report , I guess it will now probably never see the light of day , burried in the old regime administration .
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Old 26th Feb 2011, 12:21
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Re: post ATC watcher

This is, right now, the main concern in Holland. Aviation authorities i.c. 'Onderzoeksraad' did not receive any information (from Libya) for months.
It is believed that the recent political developments will end this afair and the real chance that the cause of this drama will surface is close to nil.

It seems that this kind of investigations is subject to political powerplay, if it is not political it may be subject to other sorts of cover up, like the Faro diaster so clearly showed.
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Old 26th Feb 2011, 18:56
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Apologies for not reading through all the 67 pages of this thread, but havn't the CVR and DFDR been sent to France for download? If the data of these recorders survived the crash relatively unscathed it should not prove too difficult to at least come up with a reliable sequence of events.

Last edited by 76-er; 27th Feb 2011 at 02:22.
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Old 26th Feb 2011, 19:19
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The question might arise if the French investigators are willing to disclose any findings without consent of the Lybian airline.
I have no idea if the Dutch are qualified partners in the investigation. If nobody claims the finals from the examination of the equipment that has been sent to France what will be next? What I have understood is that there has been no communication for a long time between the involved parties.
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Old 28th Feb 2011, 13:53
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The question might arise if the French investigators are willing to disclose any findings without consent of the Lybian airline.
I would have thought that the authorities in Holland might have sufficient leverage to make disclosure of the FDR/CVR possible, irrespective of the state of Afriqyah and/or the Libyan aviation authorities. In fact given the turmoil in-country this might be the exact opportune moment for that to happen.
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Old 28th Feb 2011, 14:47
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my experience is that if a regulatory function external to the country of operation is an obvious corrective action, than any party with knowledge of the facts will provide such recommendation.

Either way (internal to county of origin or ad-hoc elsewhere) don't expect to see this formalized in a press release.
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Old 28th Feb 2011, 20:04
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The question might arise if the French investigators are willing to disclose any findings without consent of the Lybian airline
The airline has not much to say in this, the Lybian CAA has. Releasing findings such as CVRs/FDR is their call, definitively not the French BEA. The BEA will not make a report, they have no authority to do so,( neither have the Dutch by the way ) . So what will remain of the archives and the staff of the future Lybian CAA will determine if a report will be made one day or not.
But there are plenty of well educated and serious people in Lybia, so when the mess is over some might get in power and who knows.But my guess is that they will probably have a lot of more pressing things to do than to spend time and ressources on a accident that happenned in the past regime.
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Old 28th Feb 2011, 20:25
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This is fully understood. It will be a matter of the future.
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Old 21st Mar 2011, 17:57
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The current (05/13/2010) Google earth imagery has the crash site before the debris removal, kind of sad to see what's left of the A-330, and make you wonder how that kid survived...
This is a link to the image, I can't seem to be able to make the insert image work ?

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting


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Old 21st Mar 2011, 21:31
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Thank you Melax.



It's about 2500 feet between what seems to be the initial impact and the wings on the far right.
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Old 17th Apr 2011, 18:21
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Research crash Tripoli sabotaged

Dutch NOS today has a story telling the Libyan authorities sabotaged the investigation for the cause of the crash of the Afriqayah A330.

source: NOS Nieuws - Onderzoek crash Tripoli gesaboteerd

Libyan authorities have tried from the start of the investigation into the plane crash in Tripoli to sabotage. So says an expert from the research team who has left.

According to the Libyan man wanted from the beginning to appear that the crash was caused by a heart attack in the pilot. That was already established before an autopsy was done, says the researcher. He thinks the crash was caused by sudden local fog and pilot fatigue.
At the crash in May last year were 103 deaths, including 70 Dutch.A boy of nine survived the plane crash
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Old 17th Apr 2011, 22:56
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Googe translate from Dutch.
"Libya thwarts research Tripoli crash 'LONDON - The Libyan authorities to frustrate the investigation into the plane crash in Tripoli, where 67 Dutch among others perished. Massoud Ibrahim said that aviation researcher at the NOS. He is involved in the investigation into the cause of the crash. The authorities claimed that the pilot would have a heart attack and that therefore the case has been closed. According to Ibrahim, however, no autopsy performed to find out. Similarly, the co-pilot of a heart attack to intervene. According to Ibrahim the pilot was overtired. He flew two consecutive night flights. Ibrahim is worried that the truth will never uncover long as Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi to power. The aircraft was Muammar Gaddafi of Afriqiyah Airways, wholly owned by the State also leads the research. Afriqiyah Airways working people who would have close links with Gaddafi. Worldwide spoke to the investigator. According to journalist Hans Jaap Melissen the weather was bad and had the unit for a different job, countries that are more endowed. When French researchers took data from the black box and sent to Libya, in his opinion nothing more heard of. Contact Many attempts to make contact were unsuccessful. The contact would be complicated by the battle between insurgents and Gaddafi. Sunday morning, however, would have promised to release more information soon. The law requires the authorities to do that for May 12, then the accident in which 103 people died one year ago. A then 9-year old Dutchman survived the disaster alone.
Source (Dutch): 'Libië frustreert onderzoek Tripoli' | nu.nl/binnenland | Het laatste nieuws het eerst op nu.nl
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Old 17th Apr 2011, 23:31
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Googe translate from Dutch.
"Libya thwarts research Tripoli crash 'LONDON - The Libyan authorities to frustrate the investigation into the plane crash in Tripoli, where 67 Dutch among others perished. Massoud Ibrahim said that aviation researcher at the NOS. He is involved in the investigation into the cause of the crash. The authorities claimed that the pilot would have a heart attack and that therefore the case has been closed. According to Ibrahim, however, no autopsy performed to find out. Similarly, the co-pilot of a heart attack to intervene. According to Ibrahim the pilot was overtired. He flew two consecutive night flights. Ibrahim is worried that the truth will never uncover long as Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi to power. The aircraft was Muammar Gaddafi of Afriqiyah Airways, wholly owned by the State also leads the research. Afriqiyah Airways working people who would have close links with Gaddafi. Worldwide spoke to the investigator. According to journalist Hans Jaap Melissen the weather was bad and had the unit for a different job, countries that are more endowed. When French researchers took data from the black box and sent to Libya, in his opinion nothing more heard of. Contact Many attempts to make contact were unsuccessful. The contact would be complicated by the battle between insurgents and Gaddafi. Sunday morning, however, would have promised to release more information soon. The law requires the authorities to do that for May 12, then the accident in which 103 people died one year ago. A then 9-year old Dutchman survived the disaster alone.
Source (Dutch): 'Libië frustreert onderzoek Tripoli' | nu.nl/binnenland | Het laatste nieuws het eerst op nu.nl

I guess there are newspapers, magazines and Google translations, but so far no confirmation that this is actually sourced to an investigating body under ICAO.
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Old 18th Apr 2011, 08:15
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Maybe not, but the Nederlandse Omroep Stichting is as good a source as Voice of America, for example.
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Old 14th May 2011, 18:36
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An article in a Dutch magazine:

(improved Google translation)


By Harald Doornbos | 12 Mei 2011 - 11:57

BENGHAZI - Afriqiyah Airways flight 771 has crashed because of a catastrophic combination of six cases of gross negligence by Libya's crew, the control tower and the airline itself. So says Naser Amer, pilot and former flight safety officer of Afriqiyah Airways, in an exclusive interview with correspondent Harald Doornbos for HP/De Tijd. From the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi for the first time Amer brings clarity about the disaster in which exactly one year ago, 103 people died, including 67 Dutch.

Amer indicates an accumulation of failures, including six crucial. First, not the experienced captain, but a young first officer was at the controls of the disaster plane which was en route from Johannesburg to Tripoli. This first officer made a crucial error just before the crash by pushing the nose down instead of up. When this happened the captain did not intervene to prevent the crash. Earlier, the control tower in Tripoli sent the plane to the wrong runway. To make matters worse, there was two weeks before the crash, on a flight from London to Tripoli, a near-accident with exactly the same plane and same crew. This creates suspicions that something was wrong with the airplane. Against all internal rules of Afriqiyah this near-accident was not reported by the captain. Computer data of this near-collision reached Naser Amer far too late. Not within three days, as it should, but only after thirteen days - just half a day before the accident that killed the Dutchmen. In any event, too late for Amer to keep the captain and first officer of the disaster plane on the ground.

Naser Amer, who graduated from Oxford University in 1977, was until February this year one of the executives within Afriqiyah. He worked for thirty years as a pilot and instructor in Switzerland and Libya, he got training at Schiphol airport among other places. Amer was not part of the official inquiry into the disaster, but as a pilot and flight safety officer of Afriqiyah, he nevertheless was closely involved in the investigation. For example, with support of the Slovenian airline Adria he made an accurate simulation of the flight path of the disaster flight. Also, Amer was kept informed by Afriqiyah colleagues of the investigation. Amer reported these findings directly to the Director of Afriqiyah. As flight safety officer, he had the power to "suspend or investigate any pilot of Afriqiyah".
Amer fled on February 19, two days after the outbreak of a popular uprising in Libya, from Tripoli to Switzerland, where he has a house. Until that time he was a pilot and flight safety officer. From Switzerland, he traveled to Benghazi in eastern Libya. Previously he was forced to fly pro-Gaddafi-mercenaries of the city Sirte to his birthplace Benghazi. "I did not want to participate in Gaddafi's terror," said Amer. "So I fled". "I suppose I'm fired now".

"It was a cloudy day with lots of low clouds," recalls Naser Amer the day of the fatal accident. "The plane was told to land on runway 09 by the control tower". That is not good compared with runway 27, where you can land on autopilot. "Runway 09 only has the possibility of a non-precision landing with the inferior VOR-system."
Why the control tower did not allow the pilot of flight 771 to land on the safer runway 27, is according to Amer part of what he calls "the Libyan mentality. "You can not as a pilot go in debate with the tower," he says. "They give you an assignment and you must adhere to it. The tower prefers runway 09 because it is easier for them. "So they do not have to look at the sun. "
What would have happened if flight 771 had been sent to runway 27? "There would have been no disaster." says Amer decidedly. "Then the plane would have landed safely."
When the landing was then attempted to the more primitive runway 09 it became clear that the airplane could not land because of low clouds. Upon this the pilot decided to do a 'go-around'. This means that the landing is abandoned and the plane climbs, flies around and attempts a new landing. But instead of pulling the plane up, the pilot pushed the plane down, making it hit the ground and crash.

The main points of Naser Ames' story are confirmed by a second pilot in Libya, who wishes to remain anonymous but whose name and credentials are known to the author. This pilot, also a Libyan, was with his plane at the runway waiting for permission for departure to an oil field in central Libya when Flight 771 crashed. "I saw a cloud of smoke and then I immediately contacted the control tower," he recalls the time of the accident on May 12, 2010. "I do not believe that the tower had already realized that there had been an accident. I also did not know exactly, because it was a big cloud of smoke. But I feared already in the first seconds the worst."
According to this pilot, who was less involved in the investigation into the disaster than Naser Amer, choosing the wrong runway was crucial. "The control tower has made a big mistake by letting the aircraft land on Runway 09, and not on 27," he says. "I have no idea why they are so insistent on it."-
"The weather has only played a minor role during the disaster," says the anonymous pilot. "As the plane just before the accident flight had just landed normally at Tripoli airport. They did not do a 'go-around'. They saw a hole in the clouds and just landed safely. Then came flight 771, which made a go-around - but that went wrong. "

Back to pilot Naser Amer. Until now, everyone assumes that the pilot of the plane was experienced captain Yusuf El-Saadi. This is not true according to Naser Amer. "It was the first officer Tariq [Mousa, ed] in control at the time of the crash." Why not the captain who had more experience? "We do not know," said Amer.
According to Amer captain El-Saadi, based on data from the voice recorder, gave control to first officer Tariq one hour after leaving Johannesburg. Subsequently, captain El-Saadi left the cockpit and he slept a few hours. This is a normal procedure, because with a captain sleeping outside the cockpit there still remain two co-pilots: first officer Tareq Mousa and second officer Nazem El-Mabruk.
According to the voice recorder sixty minutes before landing captain El-Saadi returned to the cockpit, but the controls remained until the last moment in the hands of first officer Tariq Mousa.
"Instead of the go-around and back upward, the plane dived down and crashed," says Amer. "Whether that was a mistake of the first officer or perhaps a fault of the aircraft, we do not know. For even the French - investigating the plane - have not finished their investigation. "

As the plane just before the crash flew down instead of up, captain El-Saadi, sitting next to first officer Mousa, still could have intervened quickly and take control. But somehow the captain did nothing. According to Amer, on the CVR the voice of the second officer is audible shouting in panic the half sentence, "What's wrong with the c..."
Further analysis of the CVR of this particular phrase has led researchers to believe that the second officer would say: "What is wrong with the captain?"
"It could be that captain El-Saadi was so shocked by the steering error that he could not intervene," Amer guesses. "It could also be that something was wrong with the captain. That he had a heart attack or was unconscious. But we are not sure. "
Amer knows the killed crew personally. "Captain El-Saadi was a good friend of mine. We have studied together at Oxford. "

It is shocking that the disaster totally could have been avoided if Afriqiyah two weeks earlier had complied with its own rules better. On April 28, 2010 namely there is an Afriqiyah Airways flight from London to Tripoli. This is exactly the same plane that crashes fourteen days later. Captain El-Saadi and co-pilot Mousa are present. As in the May 12 disaster flight on April 28 there are low clouds in Tripoli.
"Also during this flight the pilot was first officer Tariq," says Amer. "Captain El-Saadi sat beside him." Because of the clouds the pilot wanted to make a go-around, which is a standard action for pilots. But instead of pulling up the nose of the plane went right down. "Just before the plane hit the ground, captain El-Saadi could luckily intervene and correct first officer Tariq in time," says Amer. "I always say that the crash of the plane from Johannesburg should have happened two weeks earlier, with the plane from London."
Problem for flight safety officer Amer was that captain El-Saadi and first pilot Tariq Mousa concealed the very serious incident on the London flight.
"Of course they should have reported this incident to me, but they have not done so," says Amer. "So I was not aware of this near-accident. If I had known I would have suspended them and have an investigation carried out. Then two weeks later, the disaster of the Johannesburg flight would never have taken place. "

Because Afriqiya has a second recording system, the non-reporting of the near-crash during the London flight would be discovered otherwise. "We check all data of all our flights through a system called Airface," says Amer. "This is how I as flight safety officer still have found that almost an accident had occurred during the Tripoli-London flight on April 28. But the company that supplies us with this data is messy and slow. Officially they are supposed to give us the data of a flight three days after the flight. But there was a problem to get the data from the airport to our office. These guys are not organized. The data of the London-Tripoli flight reached our office only until thirteen days later, at the end of the afternoon. The data was loaded in our computers on may 11, but by then we had already left our office. The next day we were going to analyse the London-Tripoli-flight, but before we came to it, the disaster took place with the flight from Johannesburg. "

The reason Naser Amer now breaks the silence about the true nature of the disaster, is because he wants the Netherlands to know the truth. "I can speak freely because I am no longer in the area of Gaddafi," he says. "Gaddafi ruled Libya not as a country, but as his own farm. There was corruption, people were disorganized and did not take their responsibility. Ultimately it goes wrong and that will cost many human lives."
The anonymous pilot says: "There are many mistakes. The tower made the plane land on the wrong runway and the go-around went inexplicably wrong. Here people have dropped the ball."
Naser Amer says he regrets what happened. "Terrible, all those people who have died - most of them were Dutch," he says. "Hereby I condole all survivors. It is a tragedy for the Libyans, the South Africans and especially the Dutch people."

link (with picture):
Een jaar na de ramp: 'Er zijn veel fouten gemaakt' - HP/De Tijd

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