Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash
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Hi,
Surprised we not have any news of the last seconds by the survivor (a little boy )
I remember in the case of the Comores accident the girl who survived had something to tell.
The medias reported a lot about her .. and here .. silence ...
It can be valuable ... or not.
Surprised we not have any news of the last seconds by the survivor (a little boy )
I remember in the case of the Comores accident the girl who survived had something to tell.
The medias reported a lot about her .. and here .. silence ...
It can be valuable ... or not.
France24 - Young Tripoli crash survivor says he's 'fine' and 'wants to go home'
He's only 9 - the girl was a teenager. Fair bit of difference.
Sun worshipper
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I love those people who claim never felt disorientation, vertigo, somatographic illusions, visual illusions...etc...
...and conveniently forgot that they've spent their careers in simulators being happily exposed to somatographic illusions, visual illusions, vertigo and disorientation !
Sheesh !
What is a simulator if not the only place where your inner ear sensors are aligned with a virtual visual position ?
Liars and cheats all ! ( hairy balls included)
...and conveniently forgot that they've spent their careers in simulators being happily exposed to somatographic illusions, visual illusions, vertigo and disorientation !
Sheesh !
What is a simulator if not the only place where your inner ear sensors are aligned with a virtual visual position ?
Liars and cheats all ! ( hairy balls included)
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Any chance keeping your eyes on the instruments (and trusting them) will help here? The Ci 006 team flying the 747SP in their famous dive lost awareness while in cloud and believed it wasn't possible they were upside down and that something must've been wrong with the instruments .
China Airlines Flight 006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
China Airlines Flight 006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Centaurus/Tower Dog
Somatogravic Illusion has probably been a factor in more accidents, particularly in high performance military aircraft, than is widely understood.
At dinner this evening my colleague and I we're discussing two such instances involving CAF CF-18's. I'm sure a close look at the records would find many, many more.
In civilian flying two recent accidents, Gulf Air 072 and Aramavia 967, both have similar profiles of spatial disorientation occuring during a two engine go-around at night or in cloud. Going further back in time there are also more for those who care to look.
A critical point for consideration in this accident might be the differences in performance between the A330 and the previous types the crew may have been familiar with. A substantial difference between what they were historically used to and what they actually experienced could have had a great heightening effect on the sensation of the pitch up illusion if that is what occurred.
This is not to rule out other possibilities, but if the aircraft did do what is reported, this would be a very plausible explanation for why it did so.
ELAC
Somatogravic Illusion has probably been a factor in more accidents, particularly in high performance military aircraft, than is widely understood.
At dinner this evening my colleague and I we're discussing two such instances involving CAF CF-18's. I'm sure a close look at the records would find many, many more.
In civilian flying two recent accidents, Gulf Air 072 and Aramavia 967, both have similar profiles of spatial disorientation occuring during a two engine go-around at night or in cloud. Going further back in time there are also more for those who care to look.
A critical point for consideration in this accident might be the differences in performance between the A330 and the previous types the crew may have been familiar with. A substantial difference between what they were historically used to and what they actually experienced could have had a great heightening effect on the sensation of the pitch up illusion if that is what occurred.
This is not to rule out other possibilities, but if the aircraft did do what is reported, this would be a very plausible explanation for why it did so.
ELAC
SkyGod
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I love those people who claim never felt disorientation, vertigo, somatographic illusions, visual illusions...etc...
Who said they never have been disoriented or have never experienced vertigo..?
I sure have, but somatographic illusions from rotating hard has never been a problem.
Early in my instrument training and under the hood, I got vertigo a few times, but the cure was to trust your instruments, not the inner-ear sensation of being in a turn.
Liars and cheats all !
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SI duplicated in simulators?
Lemurian brings up an interesting point on simulators, the flip side of which is that creating conditions to induce the proposed somatogravic illusion (SI) is likely not possible in a simulator.
Point being that even if the exact scenario was trained in a simulator the G forces would not be the same as felt by the accident pilots.
This of course would make the SI even more difficult to recognize and deal with.
===
Some things cannot be simulated:
The failure of the first Arian 5 launch was in part due to the fact that the only way to truly test an inertial guidance system (in all 3 acceleration axis) is to fly it.
Point being that even if the exact scenario was trained in a simulator the G forces would not be the same as felt by the accident pilots.
This of course would make the SI even more difficult to recognize and deal with.
===
Some things cannot be simulated:
The failure of the first Arian 5 launch was in part due to the fact that the only way to truly test an inertial guidance system (in all 3 acceleration axis) is to fly it.
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One Forgotten Facet of SI's onset
A critical point for consideration in this accident might be the differences in performance between the A330 and the previous types the crew may have been familiar with. A substantial difference between what they were historically used to and what they actually experienced could have had a great heightening effect on the sensation of the pitch up illusion if that is what occurred.
It's quite a different kettle of fish doing a missed approach when already on the clocks from DA or MDA - to transitioning from an unexpected lost visual into a missed approach/go-round scenario. Certainly that's so in the simulator and most certainly in the airplane - the difference being that you can't reproduce the vestibular sensations in the simulator.
If you search the internet for the topic you'll find that the onset of the pitch-up illusion is sudden and alarming. The pilot response of pitching nose-down strongly reinforces the "sensation of steeply climbing" illusion. i.e. once you're in it you're unlikely to escape it.
Back in the 1970's, after observing a number of glider winch-launch accidents in VMC where the pilots pitched sharply nose-down just after transitioning to a steep nose-up climb, the famous UK gliding instructor Derek Piggot wrote a book on the subject, citing the many instances, and an avmed analysis of the phenomenon.
Those who haven't had avmed training, as with hypoxia, wouldn't stand a chance once in the grip of the sensation. The "stuffing the nose down" response is quite involuntary. If the other pilot wasn't suffering the same illusion at first, once the unload came on, he soon would be.
.
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Wrong reply
Murphywasright (#958)
I think you did not understand Lemurian correctly: in a simulator, deliberate use is made of the shortcomings of the vestibular organ in the inner ear.
In order to make the pilot believe he is being accelerated, the simulator cabin is tilted backwards, while the simulator visual could be showing level flight.
In order to make the pilot believe he is being decelerated, the simulator cabin is tilted forwards, while the simulator visual could be showing level flight.
When rolling in, the simulator cabin rolls tilts with the roll, with a rapidity that will be felt by the inner ear. The visual then continues to show proper roll response, while the cabin returns to upright at a rate so low that the inner ear does not detect it, and so on and so forth.
The basic working principle being that the visual channel of man(kind) is so powerfull that it will override sensations from the inner ear. Falling into the trap of the somatogravic illusion is caused by not using the visual channel - not looking at, or not believing, the (artificial) horizon.
Yes, I know how formation flying (as wingman) can topple your "internal" gyro, however, the remedy to that is just a glimpse from the corner of your eye onto your HUD or head down attitude indicator (probably not yet available in old day Tiger Moths).
I think you did not understand Lemurian correctly: in a simulator, deliberate use is made of the shortcomings of the vestibular organ in the inner ear.
In order to make the pilot believe he is being accelerated, the simulator cabin is tilted backwards, while the simulator visual could be showing level flight.
In order to make the pilot believe he is being decelerated, the simulator cabin is tilted forwards, while the simulator visual could be showing level flight.
When rolling in, the simulator cabin rolls tilts with the roll, with a rapidity that will be felt by the inner ear. The visual then continues to show proper roll response, while the cabin returns to upright at a rate so low that the inner ear does not detect it, and so on and so forth.
The basic working principle being that the visual channel of man(kind) is so powerfull that it will override sensations from the inner ear. Falling into the trap of the somatogravic illusion is caused by not using the visual channel - not looking at, or not believing, the (artificial) horizon.
Yes, I know how formation flying (as wingman) can topple your "internal" gyro, however, the remedy to that is just a glimpse from the corner of your eye onto your HUD or head down attitude indicator (probably not yet available in old day Tiger Moths).
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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I find it very concerning that so-called professional pilots who presumably visit a 'full motion sim' at least every 6 months have 'never experienced' the very illusions of accelerations induced by pitch changes in the box.
S.I. Is Real
Catapulting from an aircraft carrier at night or IMC would surely be the most dangerous risk from SI yet rarely do we hear of these aircraft crashing into the ocean after take off.............
for such a thing to happen when selecting toga you would not only have to ignore the flight director and the pitch attitude but the "to low terrain" egpws.
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PBL
Finally, anyone in favor of the tail-struck-first scenario could please explain the puzzle I posed a few days ago, namely how one can get an AoA of 16°+descent path angle on an A330 at approach-like speeds. So far, no one has tried.
However, a quick scan brought up several tailstrike cases in A330, A340 and A320 aircraft (on takeoff as well as landing), so evidently AlphaMax protection is not always effective in preventing a tail first contact. Can anyone elaborate?
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alpha max
Alpha max protects against stalling.
During take-off roll, a-max protection is not active, pitch control is direct (pull stick x amount, get elevator x amount, i.e. not y amount as modulated by flight control computer.
But anyway, contact of tail with ground occurs at lower angle than angle at which wing would stall.
PBL's puzzle is much about well, when flying and you pull, than angle of attack increases, so lift increases, so aircraft moves away from earth, so tail cannot hit earth anymore. But, as aircraft rotates, approximately around the wings, the initial movement of the tail is still down - during a take-off, the point of closest proximity of belly underside to runway occurs just after main wheels have lifted off! (at least with long aircraft).
I cannot quickly calculate anything to solve PBL's puzzle, but I hope some mysterious concepts have been cleared up.
During take-off roll, a-max protection is not active, pitch control is direct (pull stick x amount, get elevator x amount, i.e. not y amount as modulated by flight control computer.
But anyway, contact of tail with ground occurs at lower angle than angle at which wing would stall.
PBL's puzzle is much about well, when flying and you pull, than angle of attack increases, so lift increases, so aircraft moves away from earth, so tail cannot hit earth anymore. But, as aircraft rotates, approximately around the wings, the initial movement of the tail is still down - during a take-off, the point of closest proximity of belly underside to runway occurs just after main wheels have lifted off! (at least with long aircraft).
I cannot quickly calculate anything to solve PBL's puzzle, but I hope some mysterious concepts have been cleared up.
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Originally Posted by EMIT
PBL's puzzle is much about well, when flying and you pull, than angle of attack increases, so lift increases, so aircraft moves away from earth, so tail cannot hit earth anymore.
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EMIT may be overlooking the downward momentum of a 300+tonne mass of airplane on approach. If one wishes to instantly reverse the downward velocity, an infinite amount of lift is required, with the consequent infinite Gs imposed.
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Aware
CONFiture and Barit,
I am well aware of the inertia and the slight descent before you achieve positive climb.
I am pretty sure that PBL is aware of that as well, but PBL posted a geometric puzzle as to how it would be possible that (as speculated) only the tail would have hit the ground without the landing gear (or in case of gear up) the engines hitting the ground as well (in the initial impact that would be).
I am well aware of the inertia and the slight descent before you achieve positive climb.
I am pretty sure that PBL is aware of that as well, but PBL posted a geometric puzzle as to how it would be possible that (as speculated) only the tail would have hit the ground without the landing gear (or in case of gear up) the engines hitting the ground as well (in the initial impact that would be).
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for such a thing to happen when selecting toga you would not only have to ignore the flight director and the pitch attitude but the "to low terrain" egpws.
