Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash
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Hendrik - they are indeed valid questions you ask. I think I would have waited a while. In any case, I would expect the airfield to 'close' because all the rescue services would be off-field.
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This is probably the reason why Alitalia refuses to give a statement. They probably have an internal investigation to find out why (if) they took off with the knowledge that emergency service is not available. There is room for an explanation.
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Witness report Alitalia
Thanks Sitting Bull. I did read your post carefully but remain with the question: if, as you post you know for a fact from your source, the Alitalia crew witnessed the crash how is it then possible that none of the passengers have spoken to the press?
That can be explained very simple: either there were very few passengers on board and nobody looked outside (it is very unusual passenger do NOT look outside at time of take-off), or the passengers actually did not see anything because the angle they looked to the outside was different to the viewing angle of the pilot. And that I do not understand.
AZ is fully entitled to keep the official report confidential. I absolutely understand that. But no company can order passengers not to speak out.
That can be explained very simple: either there were very few passengers on board and nobody looked outside (it is very unusual passenger do NOT look outside at time of take-off), or the passengers actually did not see anything because the angle they looked to the outside was different to the viewing angle of the pilot. And that I do not understand.
AZ is fully entitled to keep the official report confidential. I absolutely understand that. But no company can order passengers not to speak out.
Last edited by HendrikJan; 7th Jun 2010 at 13:37. Reason: spelling error
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Alitalia
Hendrik: My drift would be the following: The pilots had more information than the passengers. They knew there was a plane coming and had the collision warning system on - they knew what to look for. Then probably only some parts of the a/c were visible at times above the bushes and there was no major immediate fire. Pretty conceivable that the pax did not realize anything. What is not conceivable to me is how did the pilots have or considered that they had a take-off clearance. Good reason for a big silence, right?
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How do you know they didn't talked or want to talk about it? If no journalist was quick enough to catch them at arrival, it will be hard if no one of the passengers called the media directly. Have you searched Facebook, *Twitter*, Italian fora etc. thoroughly?
Anyway, I guess they wouldn't have much information. If (if!) they looked outside a window, can one expect a non-professional to provide accurate information?
Anyway, I guess they wouldn't have much information. If (if!) they looked outside a window, can one expect a non-professional to provide accurate information?
Last edited by wozzo; 7th Jun 2010 at 14:31. Reason: Clarifying, Masking *Twitter*
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Alitalia
Thanks wozzo. I am getting out of the discussion now. I will wait for the official report. I had hoped that more info on the official report was available. As long as it is not published I guess we have to let it rest as speculation rather than facts may dominate further discussions. I don't want to go that way.
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CVR: "conversations don't show signs of pilots noticing something going wrong"
Dutch media (Afriqiyah-crash een groot raadsel - Binnenland - Telegraaf.nl [24 uur actueel, ook mobiel] [binnenland]) quote Afriqiyah CEO Shadi saying in interviews in Berlin that, according to the CVR transcripts "as extracted this week in Paris", at least the conversations in the cockpit do not show any signs of the pilots "being aware of a sudden danger or of a pilot noticing that someting goes wrong." "Suddenly there is silence", Shadi is quoted, after he indicated that "until one second before the crash" there was radio-contact with the tower. Shadi continues to say that the accident cause is "therefore also for us a great mystery".
I have underlined "the conversations", because I cannot believe that there were no aural messages to be heard under the circumstances.
Dutch
I have underlined "the conversations", because I cannot believe that there were no aural messages to be heard under the circumstances.
Dutch
According the System Description document issued by Airbus for the Allied Signal CVR, the unit records 4 channels of audio:
Channel 1 - Capt - all audio transmitted by the capt (radio and i/c)
Channel 2 - F/O - all audio transmitted by the F/O (radio and i/c)
Channel 3 - 3rd occupant - all audio transmitted by the 3rd crew (radio and i/c)
Channel 4 - Cockpit ambient mic
Therefore any background noise, warnings and cautions, etc, along with non-transmitted audio (crew chat) would have been picked up on the 4th channel.
Doesn't the FWC issue normal rad alt height call outs during descent? Synthetic voice callouts are issued in increments of 100 feet starting at 300 feet down to 100, and then at 50 feet in 10 foot increments.
- GY
Channel 1 - Capt - all audio transmitted by the capt (radio and i/c)
Channel 2 - F/O - all audio transmitted by the F/O (radio and i/c)
Channel 3 - 3rd occupant - all audio transmitted by the 3rd crew (radio and i/c)
Channel 4 - Cockpit ambient mic
Therefore any background noise, warnings and cautions, etc, along with non-transmitted audio (crew chat) would have been picked up on the 4th channel.
Doesn't the FWC issue normal rad alt height call outs during descent? Synthetic voice callouts are issued in increments of 100 feet starting at 300 feet down to 100, and then at 50 feet in 10 foot increments.
- GY
From what I know, the exact altitude callouts on approach can be pin-selected by the operator.
- GY
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This A330 FCOM example contains info about the automated voice callouts. See section 1.34.40 - Radio Altimeter.
http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdf...Navigation.pdf
G-d
http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdf...Navigation.pdf
G-d
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@ Sitting Bull
Do you see a discrepancy in the postinng #1036 and the statement in your posting #894: "-they announced and initiated a go-around at low level (tower radar and Alitalia TCAS)"? If yes, would you be in a position to elaborate some?
Thanks RD
Thanks RD
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@ 76-er
I was indeed not only referring to rad alt callouts, but also to Premature Decent Alerting (PDA), or in Honeywell terms Terrain Clearance Floor (TCF) alerts.
You are right to say that EGWPS MAY not give an alert when the A/C is fully configured for landing and within an normal descent envelope.
Up to how close to the RWY PDA will provoke an alert in those circumstances depends on the advancement of the EGWPS/PDA hard- and software installed.
I presume this allmost brandnew A/C was mounted with the latest (incl. data on the A/C home-base), and therefore likely to provoke an alert relatively close to the RWY. A Honeywell TCF video speaks of 0,5 nm (link below).
General Information - Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System - Honeywell Aerospace
Dutch
You are right to say that EGWPS MAY not give an alert when the A/C is fully configured for landing and within an normal descent envelope.
Up to how close to the RWY PDA will provoke an alert in those circumstances depends on the advancement of the EGWPS/PDA hard- and software installed.
I presume this allmost brandnew A/C was mounted with the latest (incl. data on the A/C home-base), and therefore likely to provoke an alert relatively close to the RWY. A Honeywell TCF video speaks of 0,5 nm (link below).
General Information - Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System - Honeywell Aerospace
Dutch
Last edited by D Bru; 11th Jun 2010 at 11:56. Reason: adding link to Honeywell TCF video
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Dear RegDep
Just where do you see a discrepancy?
Do you suggest that the initiation of a go-around should cause confusion or even panic in the cockpit?
Dear HendrikJan
Alitalia was approaching the holding point for Rwy 09
Just where do you see a discrepancy?
Do you suggest that the initiation of a go-around should cause confusion or even panic in the cockpit?
Dear HendrikJan
Alitalia was approaching the holding point for Rwy 09
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Sitting Bull
Sir, in my ill-thought-of question I was looking for confirmation that the newspaper article was correct in its reference to the CVR in not mentioning the go-around and/or the reason of it. I am not thinking, nor believing, that the crew could not handle a GA. As told by you earlier and repeatedly, I, as all of us, should have waited for the official information to be published.
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possible answer to your conundrum...
HendrikJan: If you are still monitoring this, I might propose a scenario.
A pilot is at holding point (or nearby) on a foreign airfield with no real facilities for a long ground stay, where the local authorities and facilities are, (shall we say), not exactly "first world" in all aspects; and where the pilot is in command of a lightly-loaded aircraft, working for an airline that is in deep financial trouble.
He sees, directly ahead of him, an inbound aircraft fly into the ground and disappear in a cloud of dust.
Perhaps he has two choices:
1: abort take off, return to stand, park up, shut down, offload pax, and prepare for himself, crew, aircraft, cargo and pax to be stuck there, in a grotty hotel, more or less indefinitely (or until local authorities decide to let them all go, which if the pilot is a material witness might not be for some time).
2: He pushes TL to TO power, and slips away in the confusion, flying directly over the wreckage trail of the crashed aircraft, (which his pax would not see as they are not looking directly ahead), and mutters "there but for the grace of God" or words to that effect.
I would suggest that Airline management, freight recipients, pax, and crew would all be intensely grateful for him to take the second option.
Not, of course, suggesting that this is what happened. But if I were aboard that aircraft, I would be grateful he made that call.
Whether the Alitalia internal investigation agrees is a different matter, of course.
A pilot is at holding point (or nearby) on a foreign airfield with no real facilities for a long ground stay, where the local authorities and facilities are, (shall we say), not exactly "first world" in all aspects; and where the pilot is in command of a lightly-loaded aircraft, working for an airline that is in deep financial trouble.
He sees, directly ahead of him, an inbound aircraft fly into the ground and disappear in a cloud of dust.
Perhaps he has two choices:
1: abort take off, return to stand, park up, shut down, offload pax, and prepare for himself, crew, aircraft, cargo and pax to be stuck there, in a grotty hotel, more or less indefinitely (or until local authorities decide to let them all go, which if the pilot is a material witness might not be for some time).
2: He pushes TL to TO power, and slips away in the confusion, flying directly over the wreckage trail of the crashed aircraft, (which his pax would not see as they are not looking directly ahead), and mutters "there but for the grace of God" or words to that effect.
I would suggest that Airline management, freight recipients, pax, and crew would all be intensely grateful for him to take the second option.
Not, of course, suggesting that this is what happened. But if I were aboard that aircraft, I would be grateful he made that call.
Whether the Alitalia internal investigation agrees is a different matter, of course.
Well, if I were in the situation of watching a large passenger aircraft spearing into the ground right in front of me just before my take-off, my first reaction (after "Oh Dear") would be "Where are the fire engines likely to be in the next few seconds"?
For a passenger flight that requires at least a Fire Category of 6 (or similar) for departure, then that is not going to happen in these circumstances is it?
Are you seriously going to tell me that, in the event of something very simple such as my having a rejected take-off leading to a brake fire etc and an evacution being needed, then the fire engines are going to leave the site of the original major disaster and come and assist me within two minutes? Of course not.
Even if they did, would the fire engines have anything left on board with which to fight a fire?
I'm sorry, but this is one of those occasions where the smart move is to taxi back to the ramp and let existing events take their course first. After all, you and your crew and all of your passengers are going to be safe.
For a passenger flight that requires at least a Fire Category of 6 (or similar) for departure, then that is not going to happen in these circumstances is it?
Are you seriously going to tell me that, in the event of something very simple such as my having a rejected take-off leading to a brake fire etc and an evacution being needed, then the fire engines are going to leave the site of the original major disaster and come and assist me within two minutes? Of course not.
Even if they did, would the fire engines have anything left on board with which to fight a fire?
I'm sorry, but this is one of those occasions where the smart move is to taxi back to the ramp and let existing events take their course first. After all, you and your crew and all of your passengers are going to be safe.
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JW411
Of course, if the Alitalia aircraft was operating within SOPs, you are right JW411. I am just mulling around an answer to a puzzling question, and putting a hypothesis out. If, as it seems, the Alitalia flight was ready for TO (but not yet airborne) as the Afriqiya aircraft crashed, yet it arrived in FCO on schedule, there has to have been a decision process that was out of the ordinary. I'm proposing one possibility.