Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash
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Would that correspond with the debris-pattern and the amount of destruction?
I dont think so. There must have been a lot of energy involved to destroy the hull to that amount right after first impact. And according to the statement of SB the crew initiated a goaround, which is not done without power..
The tailstrike scenario is imho out.
franzl
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RetiredF4,
That the thrust was not immediately applied does not mean it was never applied sometime during the process ...
To me this remark by someone who has been on the terrain is relevant :
That the thrust was not immediately applied does not mean it was never applied sometime during the process ...
To me this remark by someone who has been on the terrain is relevant :
Originally Posted by C-SAR
The Impact point is the almost perfect print of the end of the tail cone.
Now what is the normal descent rate in a NDB-approach? Something like max 1.000 ft/min. Lets make that for errors double, being 2.000 ft.
Even being late on the power in a goaround (which would make no sense at all) together with an increase in pitch and the groundeffect would dampen the impact considerably. In this case the aircraft broke up completely in the first section of the debris field, one main gear strut and the tail being located nearly together.
There is no sign of being out of control prior the impact (that was observed wings level with a nose down attitude from the alitalia crew), where schould the high descentrates come from in a nose high tail hit first scheme?
franzl
Even being late on the power in a goaround (which would make no sense at all) together with an increase in pitch and the groundeffect would dampen the impact considerably. In this case the aircraft broke up completely in the first section of the debris field, one main gear strut and the tail being located nearly together.
There is no sign of being out of control prior the impact (that was observed wings level with a nose down attitude from the alitalia crew), where schould the high descentrates come from in a nose high tail hit first scheme?
franzl
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Guesswork
How long shall the discussion continue re: events that are already known to the caretakers of the boxes? For the record, I'm going with poor visibility and a pilot who thought he was visual when he was no such thing. Sometimes pilots fly into the ground.
bear
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SI and sims
Emit (#962)
I understand (sadly on an intectual level only) the various methods used by simulators to trick the senses.
Lemurians point was that people who clain to have never felt SI etc are forgetting that simulators rely ont those illusions.
My point, or perhaps better a question, is whether a pilot would ever expererience the "pitch up" illusion in a simulator.
In other words does the simulator ever deliberatly cause mismatch between instruments (aircraft) and the induced motion illusion (pilot/seat of pants).
If the answer is no then then the instinctive reaction would be even harder to avoid.
I understand (sadly on an intectual level only) the various methods used by simulators to trick the senses.
Lemurians point was that people who clain to have never felt SI etc are forgetting that simulators rely ont those illusions.
My point, or perhaps better a question, is whether a pilot would ever expererience the "pitch up" illusion in a simulator.
In other words does the simulator ever deliberatly cause mismatch between instruments (aircraft) and the induced motion illusion (pilot/seat of pants).
If the answer is no then then the instinctive reaction would be even harder to avoid.
Dog Tired
SortieIII Inertia Rules OK?
Aha !
For those who have not enjoyed the A330 type-rating course at TLS, one of the sim exercises is a late switch to a parallel runway - at about 500 ft AGL. The idea is to remind you of the matter of inertia. I admit, I have been caught out a couple of times (trying to overfly a cloud, for example) when my 320 experience told me I could but my 330 experience was not good enough.
A non-precision approach may, often, lead to a late visual contact of the landing area. A 320 might make it; a 330 probably won't.
If the crew had a late sighting of the rwy and tried a swift track correction, they may have stuffed a wingtip in and the rest you know.
Aha !
For those who have not enjoyed the A330 type-rating course at TLS, one of the sim exercises is a late switch to a parallel runway - at about 500 ft AGL. The idea is to remind you of the matter of inertia. I admit, I have been caught out a couple of times (trying to overfly a cloud, for example) when my 320 experience told me I could but my 330 experience was not good enough.
A non-precision approach may, often, lead to a late visual contact of the landing area. A 320 might make it; a 330 probably won't.
If the crew had a late sighting of the rwy and tried a swift track correction, they may have stuffed a wingtip in and the rest you know.
My point, or perhaps better a question, is whether a pilot would ever expererience the "pitch up" illusion in a simulator.
In other words does the simulator ever deliberatly cause mismatch between instruments (aircraft) and the induced motion illusion (pilot/seat of pants).
If the answer is no then then the instinctive reaction would be even harder to avoid.
In other words does the simulator ever deliberatly cause mismatch between instruments (aircraft) and the induced motion illusion (pilot/seat of pants).
If the answer is no then then the instinctive reaction would be even harder to avoid.
This issue (amongst others) is what led to the development of the Desdemona simulator (joint venture by TNO and AMST of Holland and Austria respectively). This simulator is capable of generating continuous loads of 3G and was intended for spatial disorientation research including SI.
See: Desdemona
- GY
fantom
If the crew had a late sighting of the rwy and tried a swift track correction, they may have stuffed a wingtip in and the rest you know
If the crew had a late sighting of the rwy and tried a swift track correction, they may have stuffed a wingtip in and the rest you know
franzl
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Franz,
I personally vote for the tail hitting first and the boxes will confirm or not that theory, but more importantly, they should reveal why that A330 was that low that early (?) as long as we let them talk of course ...
I personally vote for the tail hitting first and the boxes will confirm or not that theory, but more importantly, they should reveal why that A330 was that low that early (?) as long as we let them talk of course ...
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dear mike-wsm
before posting please take the time to actually read the thread!
this was already discussed before but please allow me to get you back into the loop:
this advisory is not an "Airbus thing" but an industry initiative in response to the DHC-8/400 accident in Buffalo.
all manufacturers have been asked to send such an advisory, Boeing included.
before posting please take the time to actually read the thread!
this was already discussed before but please allow me to get you back into the loop:
this advisory is not an "Airbus thing" but an industry initiative in response to the DHC-8/400 accident in Buffalo.
all manufacturers have been asked to send such an advisory, Boeing included.
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CONF iture,
I did not say that on several occasion , some A320 crews did not applied power at Go-Around, they did apply immediately power, but only CLIMB trust power, so no SRS mode, no GA function, etc... if then you set the Auto Pilot back in, Aircraft goes back to the ground very rapidly and with a lot of energy, nose down, (then if you are in IMC and do not read you FMA, like AF , Somographic illusion occurs )and when you see the ground coming , breaking off the cloud layer, you have very few seconds to react and arrest the descent with AP OFF and pull up max...
Hopes this clarifies my words
I did not say that on several occasion , some A320 crews did not applied power at Go-Around, they did apply immediately power, but only CLIMB trust power, so no SRS mode, no GA function, etc... if then you set the Auto Pilot back in, Aircraft goes back to the ground very rapidly and with a lot of energy, nose down, (then if you are in IMC and do not read you FMA, like AF , Somographic illusion occurs )and when you see the ground coming , breaking off the cloud layer, you have very few seconds to react and arrest the descent with AP OFF and pull up max...
Hopes this clarifies my words
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Have I really just read something that "Reminds" a professional pilot how to get out of a stall and says it's should be a memory item?
I'm stunned
I'm stunned
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Flight Recorders Analysis Complete
An announcement based on the results of the flight recorders analysis will be made on Sunday, it is reported. Members of the investigation team (from France, Holland, South Africa, Libya and US) have returned to Libya from France.
Contrary to conspiracy theorists re the delay of the transfer of the flight recorders to France, they were handed over days before they were transfered but the investigators completed their onsite inspection of the accident area and the wreckage prior to travelling to France to analyse the content.
Contrary to conspiracy theorists re the delay of the transfer of the flight recorders to France, they were handed over days before they were transfered but the investigators completed their onsite inspection of the accident area and the wreckage prior to travelling to France to analyse the content.
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press release today
Dutch newspaper NRC (nrc.nl - Binnenland - Geen aanslag op rampvliegtuig Tripoli) and other Dutch newpapers report on the preliminary findings of the investigation team that Reuters was able to read through
- no indications of a terrorist attack
- no indication of technical problems, explosion or fire prior to the crash