Afriqiyah Airbus 330 Crash
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Libyan aviation
Aterpster is correct. The navaids at TIP (and BEN) have not been improved since their shocking state when I first flew from these poorly-maintained airfields in 2000. 10 years ago. Even the damned windsocks were torn and u/s, so no accurate wind readings were given. (Anemometer? No chance). I had the rotten luck of flying as a contractor to the state airline.
As for investment in the infrastructure....standard third world. I still face it now in the Caribbean and it is hardly better in Greek and Turkish airspace, not forgetting Tunisia and Morocco. Or Syria and most of the Middle East. And India. Archaic support for the Western fliers, who breathe a big sigh of relief when entering civilized airspace.
The "Inshallah" culture predominates in the closed world of Libyan "Aviation". It is even said when estimates for waypoints/beacons are given by local carriers. Hence the apalling safety record. Many of the guys are incompetent, both in the aircraft and in the control towers and radar centres. You have to have experience there to be able to say so.
As for investment in the infrastructure....standard third world. I still face it now in the Caribbean and it is hardly better in Greek and Turkish airspace, not forgetting Tunisia and Morocco. Or Syria and most of the Middle East. And India. Archaic support for the Western fliers, who breathe a big sigh of relief when entering civilized airspace.
The "Inshallah" culture predominates in the closed world of Libyan "Aviation". It is even said when estimates for waypoints/beacons are given by local carriers. Hence the apalling safety record. Many of the guys are incompetent, both in the aircraft and in the control towers and radar centres. You have to have experience there to be able to say so.
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Exactly. And anybody denying that these factors play a role in this accident is naive...
Apparently you have to have been there to appreciate how the attitude and infrastructure affects flight safety.
Apparently you have to have been there to appreciate how the attitude and infrastructure affects flight safety.
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Right, now that we have discussed the merits of simulators with lots of opinions but little progress on the events conducting to the accident AND since we are returning to the fruitless arguments about cultural issues, let’s go back to our accident and its dynamics...
One of the arguments developed in previous posts was focusing on the nose first v/s tail first. I have to apologize because I am (probably) the unwilling cause of this argument. After all English is only my third language, so please bear with me a minute, or two... if you have nothing better to do and want to read the rest…!!
When I wondered casually around the fringes of the crash site I started walking from here (Blue star) and covered all the gray area. After about 160 meters I saw the poles down from here (Yellow star) and, after another 150 meters more or less, THE FIRST MARK here (Red star).
Area 1
I should Therefore rephrase my statement to say that the first mark I saw was what appeared to be the perfect print of the tail cone, not that the tail hit first. More on this later.....
So, here we have our powerful A330 (powerful also because very light in payload and therefore with a noticeable power to weight ratio) conducting a go around. I hope that we can all safely agree on the assumption that our average trained crew realizing that the approach was not taking them to a safe landing decided to GA. (How they did it, how the aircraft AP and all the other wonders were set, WHO WAS AT THE CONTROLS, etc. I leave it to the FDR/CVR). The assumption to agree upon is that up until this moment (decision to GA) the flight was uneventful (except for the incorrect approach) but we all have been there at least... a healthy number of times (if you are honest with yourself) and as long as we recognized that we had effed...up the approach and decided to GA we were still doing our job as advertised.
Westernmost Mark
Now a number of things could happen. I am listing a couple, but by no means this is exhaustive of the possible scenarios. Please contribute..!!!
1. The lovers of the horizontal acceleration induced vertigo (sorry I do not call it with the fancy name, I am an old pilot and when I got it, I recognized it, stuck to my instruments and got over it, with or without knowledge of the fancy name) could say again all what has been already said, the pilot flying nosed it down and flew it to the ground. (On the Alitalia witness statement more later...)
2. The pilot flying went for the GA but too late and they hit the ground at the bottom of their trajectory.
Let’s see how we reconcile the marks on the ground with our scenarios and the witnesses.
I think that this photo here below is very important IF I am correct in saying that it shows a substantial nose up command. I said IF because I do not know the A330, so I couldn’t say if this position of the HS indicates a “pull up”. Inputs please from A330 flyers!!
HS
But, if it is an indication that the side stick was pulled all the way back, then two possibilities connected to the two options above. In the case of the nose down, the PF eventually saw the ground and jerked the stick back, or during the GA, realizing that he was too low applied full stick back hopping to avoid contact with the terrain.
Which brings me back to the markings on the ground.
Forget for a moment the witness statement and concentrate on the markings. Look at this picture from above. It looks as if the aircraft has hit flat, almost belly-flopping, and then skidding on the belly. Compare the picture above and below for position of little bushes (yellow arrows) and the two long markings in the direction of the crash.
Bird's eye
Now the concept of hitting the ground almost flat (belly-flopping) could be compatible with both options above (nose down – last minute attempt to avoid terrain) (normal GA hitting the ground at the bottom of the trajectory) However do not forget the position of HS, which might indicate a nose up command.
Now to the witness statement.
First of all let me qualify what I am about to say because in no way do I doubt the witness: he/she was there. I was not. I am only trying to recreate the situation in order to make the most of the information available.
AZ was at holding point runway 09. Which of the two I do not know, in matter of angle and distance are not very different, but the orientation of the AZ aircraft in relation to the direction from which the A330 was coming could be significant. Anyway, suppose they were in the most favorable position, the inside holding point, they had to look at about 60° to the right, in order to see the A330 coming, which they probably were. Now the distance from the holding point to the first mark on the ground is about 1.2 Km (full black line) and would have been masked by the clutch of trees in the yellow circle (many pictures of the site show those trees). If they had seen the aircraft coming out of the clouds before hitting the terrain, then we need to look further to the west, probably another 3 to 4 hundred meters. So, if they saw the A330 coming out of the clouds before impact, it should have been at a distance around 1.5 Km. Granted, they had the sun behind them, therefore their visibility was better than that of the pilots looking into the sun, but still, if the visibility was that much.....
Witness View
Anyway, another possibility could be that, as has already been described by numerous others posters much more observant than me, the A330 hit flat, bounced back up (in its entirety, I remember what the witnesses said) then nosed down, hit the ground and started to disintegrate.
I have not forgotten the picture of the forward fuselage piece of skin with the airline name in it, but, although it is before (meaning towards the beginning of the debris site) the final resting point of the Vertical Stabilator, it is after that famous slightly elevated road, which has been indicated by others as a possible springboard.
That is all folks, for now...
C-SAR
One of the arguments developed in previous posts was focusing on the nose first v/s tail first. I have to apologize because I am (probably) the unwilling cause of this argument. After all English is only my third language, so please bear with me a minute, or two... if you have nothing better to do and want to read the rest…!!
When I wondered casually around the fringes of the crash site I started walking from here (Blue star) and covered all the gray area. After about 160 meters I saw the poles down from here (Yellow star) and, after another 150 meters more or less, THE FIRST MARK here (Red star).
Area 1
I should Therefore rephrase my statement to say that the first mark I saw was what appeared to be the perfect print of the tail cone, not that the tail hit first. More on this later.....
So, here we have our powerful A330 (powerful also because very light in payload and therefore with a noticeable power to weight ratio) conducting a go around. I hope that we can all safely agree on the assumption that our average trained crew realizing that the approach was not taking them to a safe landing decided to GA. (How they did it, how the aircraft AP and all the other wonders were set, WHO WAS AT THE CONTROLS, etc. I leave it to the FDR/CVR). The assumption to agree upon is that up until this moment (decision to GA) the flight was uneventful (except for the incorrect approach) but we all have been there at least... a healthy number of times (if you are honest with yourself) and as long as we recognized that we had effed...up the approach and decided to GA we were still doing our job as advertised.
Westernmost Mark
Now a number of things could happen. I am listing a couple, but by no means this is exhaustive of the possible scenarios. Please contribute..!!!
1. The lovers of the horizontal acceleration induced vertigo (sorry I do not call it with the fancy name, I am an old pilot and when I got it, I recognized it, stuck to my instruments and got over it, with or without knowledge of the fancy name) could say again all what has been already said, the pilot flying nosed it down and flew it to the ground. (On the Alitalia witness statement more later...)
2. The pilot flying went for the GA but too late and they hit the ground at the bottom of their trajectory.
Let’s see how we reconcile the marks on the ground with our scenarios and the witnesses.
I think that this photo here below is very important IF I am correct in saying that it shows a substantial nose up command. I said IF because I do not know the A330, so I couldn’t say if this position of the HS indicates a “pull up”. Inputs please from A330 flyers!!
HS
But, if it is an indication that the side stick was pulled all the way back, then two possibilities connected to the two options above. In the case of the nose down, the PF eventually saw the ground and jerked the stick back, or during the GA, realizing that he was too low applied full stick back hopping to avoid contact with the terrain.
Which brings me back to the markings on the ground.
Forget for a moment the witness statement and concentrate on the markings. Look at this picture from above. It looks as if the aircraft has hit flat, almost belly-flopping, and then skidding on the belly. Compare the picture above and below for position of little bushes (yellow arrows) and the two long markings in the direction of the crash.
Bird's eye
Now the concept of hitting the ground almost flat (belly-flopping) could be compatible with both options above (nose down – last minute attempt to avoid terrain) (normal GA hitting the ground at the bottom of the trajectory) However do not forget the position of HS, which might indicate a nose up command.
Now to the witness statement.
First of all let me qualify what I am about to say because in no way do I doubt the witness: he/she was there. I was not. I am only trying to recreate the situation in order to make the most of the information available.
AZ was at holding point runway 09. Which of the two I do not know, in matter of angle and distance are not very different, but the orientation of the AZ aircraft in relation to the direction from which the A330 was coming could be significant. Anyway, suppose they were in the most favorable position, the inside holding point, they had to look at about 60° to the right, in order to see the A330 coming, which they probably were. Now the distance from the holding point to the first mark on the ground is about 1.2 Km (full black line) and would have been masked by the clutch of trees in the yellow circle (many pictures of the site show those trees). If they had seen the aircraft coming out of the clouds before hitting the terrain, then we need to look further to the west, probably another 3 to 4 hundred meters. So, if they saw the A330 coming out of the clouds before impact, it should have been at a distance around 1.5 Km. Granted, they had the sun behind them, therefore their visibility was better than that of the pilots looking into the sun, but still, if the visibility was that much.....
Witness View
Anyway, another possibility could be that, as has already been described by numerous others posters much more observant than me, the A330 hit flat, bounced back up (in its entirety, I remember what the witnesses said) then nosed down, hit the ground and started to disintegrate.
I have not forgotten the picture of the forward fuselage piece of skin with the airline name in it, but, although it is before (meaning towards the beginning of the debris site) the final resting point of the Vertical Stabilator, it is after that famous slightly elevated road, which has been indicated by others as a possible springboard.
That is all folks, for now...
C-SAR
Last edited by C-SAR; 2nd Jun 2010 at 18:57.
C-SAR
imho a very good analysis of the possible scenarios.
It can be asumed that the AI crew reported exactly what they saw. Due to the distance both possibilities could lead to their observation. The marks on the ground after initial impact however does not support the version No. 2, the marks being uninterrupted from the beginning.
franzl
imho a very good analysis of the possible scenarios.
It can be asumed that the AI crew reported exactly what they saw. Due to the distance both possibilities could lead to their observation. The marks on the ground after initial impact however does not support the version No. 2, the marks being uninterrupted from the beginning.
franzl
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To C-SAR and RetiredF4
C-SAR wrote
"The marks on the ground after initial impact however does not support the version No. 2, the marks being uninterrupted from the beginning."
Could it be that the marks are effected or affected by the blast of the still running engines at their TOGA setting?
"The marks on the ground after initial impact however does not support the version No. 2, the marks being uninterrupted from the beginning."
Could it be that the marks are effected or affected by the blast of the still running engines at their TOGA setting?
Person Of Interest
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Roy...
You ARE correct...however, my point is if one wants to Captain an A/C in that part of the world, be good, or be prepared for the consequences...
As I have said before, flying in Africa ot the Mid-East is not for the faint of heart or non-initaited...
A Type rating without practical experience is an accident waiting to happen...
And I'm not saying that's what happened in this case...I'm saying if you haven't been there, don't comment...
You ARE correct...however, my point is if one wants to Captain an A/C in that part of the world, be good, or be prepared for the consequences...
As I have said before, flying in Africa ot the Mid-East is not for the faint of heart or non-initaited...
A Type rating without practical experience is an accident waiting to happen...
And I'm not saying that's what happened in this case...I'm saying if you haven't been there, don't comment...
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ThreeGreen:
This latest post helps me understand where you are coming from.
Does this mean since I haven't flown in that part of the world I should have no expectation of a country in that part of the world to provide accident investigation information?
I certainly have not made any statements in this thread about what the ill-fated flight crew may have done or not done. That's what good accident investigation is supposed to be all about.
BTW, although I did not fly to Africa my airline did for many years. They seemed to do a pretty good job of it.
You ARE correct...however, my point is if one wants to Captain an A/C in that part of the world, be good, or be prepared for the consequences...
As I have said before, flying in Africa ot the Mid-East is not for the faint of heart or non-initaited...
A Type rating without practical experience is an accident waiting to happen...
And I'm not saying that's what happened in this case...I'm saying if you haven't been there, don't comment...
As I have said before, flying in Africa ot the Mid-East is not for the faint of heart or non-initaited...
A Type rating without practical experience is an accident waiting to happen...
And I'm not saying that's what happened in this case...I'm saying if you haven't been there, don't comment...
Does this mean since I haven't flown in that part of the world I should have no expectation of a country in that part of the world to provide accident investigation information?
I certainly have not made any statements in this thread about what the ill-fated flight crew may have done or not done. That's what good accident investigation is supposed to be all about.
BTW, although I did not fly to Africa my airline did for many years. They seemed to do a pretty good job of it.
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C-SAR,
I have read your analysis with interest.
To me, there would be a similitude to the Polish TU154 where after initial obstacle contact, a high level of thrust is applied which leads to high level of destruction.
It is not a nose up command but a horizontal stabilizer trimmed in a full up position. An airplane being flown in slow flight would have its HS in such setting. Now, as there is obviously none hydraulic power applied at this stage, I believe the HS could have ended up in any position with no relation to the real setting a few seconds earlier.
I have read your analysis with interest.
To me, there would be a similitude to the Polish TU154 where after initial obstacle contact, a high level of thrust is applied which leads to high level of destruction.
I think that this photo here below is very important IF I am correct in saying that it shows a substantial nose up command. I said IF because I do not know the A330, so I couldn’t say if this position of the HS indicates a “pull up”.
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Engines
There has been no analysis that I can find about the engines - they are on top of the ground, stripped down to the heavy metal - no pylon, no cowling, no fan, fuel lines, cables, etc. They are not dug into the dirt. Does anyone have an expert analysis of the position and condition of the engines ? ?
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Just conjecture - but one engine core (sans fan module) is lying almost intact in one photo. A shallow impact angle at high thrust might have jammed the fan blades to the case, and the LPT inertia sheared the "long tom" fan shaft. The fan case/stator assy was then knocked loose from impact forces and walked away on its own.
There has been no analysis that I can find about the engines - they are on top of the ground, stripped down to the heavy metal - no pylon, no cowling, no fan, fuel lines, cables, etc. They are not dug into the dirt. Does anyone have an expert analysis of the position and condition of the engines ? ?
Similarity between the engines would help and possibly confirm that the engines did not tumble before hitting the ground a well as confirm that the turbines hit tailpipe first (severe rotational damage). Probably not much of significance in whatever is found in the engines if it's a botched landing abort.
.
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And here he is again...Paeso...apply to the NTSB...WHO??? cares want YOU want to see...get a life or post your PROFESSIONAL profile...
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Downin3 - Of all the contributors here on PPRUNE, I seriously doubt you want to challenge Lomapaseo on things engine related when it comes to accident investigation.
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View from Above
16 pictures in sequence showing the crash site from before the impact to the wings View from Above
C-SAR
C-SAR
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Official report Altalia
Some members refer to the OFFICIAL Alitalia crew witness report. Can someone lead me to that report. As far as I am aware the crew report was mentioned the same day of the crash but after that Alialia did not make anymore comments. Thanks in advance.
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Alitalia witness report
Thanks C-SAR. I checked but I can still find no link. The background of my question is the following:
The Alitalia flight AZ871, executed by I-BIKF did indeed take off from Tripoli at the same time window as the the unfortunate Afriqiyah plane. It was reported ARRIVATO in FCO at 07:42. Scheduled take off timeTripoli was 06:05 local time.
The questions I have as a non expert (I am not a pilot, I analyse flight punctuality) in this field are:
I find it hard to believe a pilot who is holding for take-off at 09 takes off after he witnessed a passenger plane disintegrate in front of his eyes just seconds before. Several pilots I interviewed shared my feeling.
If the pilot was holding at 09 than the passengers sitting at the window seats on the right must have seen the dissater scene, when he positioned for take of, as well. No mention of that in any paper. Other than the plane carried very few passengers this is hard to believe in todays world. Passengers will speak, as members do on this forum.
Why does Alitalia management refuse to comment when asked if AZ871 took of just before or just after the crash? (I have a firm confirmation of this) What is so difficult to answer such a factual question?
The I-BKF continued it's normal service after arrival in FCO and returned to Tripoli the next day.
I am sure all questions can be answered. Most of the members here are pilots: a simple question: would you have taken off after an Airbus crashes in front of you?
The Alitalia flight AZ871, executed by I-BIKF did indeed take off from Tripoli at the same time window as the the unfortunate Afriqiyah plane. It was reported ARRIVATO in FCO at 07:42. Scheduled take off timeTripoli was 06:05 local time.
The questions I have as a non expert (I am not a pilot, I analyse flight punctuality) in this field are:
I find it hard to believe a pilot who is holding for take-off at 09 takes off after he witnessed a passenger plane disintegrate in front of his eyes just seconds before. Several pilots I interviewed shared my feeling.
If the pilot was holding at 09 than the passengers sitting at the window seats on the right must have seen the dissater scene, when he positioned for take of, as well. No mention of that in any paper. Other than the plane carried very few passengers this is hard to believe in todays world. Passengers will speak, as members do on this forum.
Why does Alitalia management refuse to comment when asked if AZ871 took of just before or just after the crash? (I have a firm confirmation of this) What is so difficult to answer such a factual question?
The I-BKF continued it's normal service after arrival in FCO and returned to Tripoli the next day.
I am sure all questions can be answered. Most of the members here are pilots: a simple question: would you have taken off after an Airbus crashes in front of you?
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dear HendrikJan
did you really read my post?
I mentioned that "I have information others don´t have"
now please start to think about that and maybe you will come to a valid conclusion
and yes: they took off and flew all the way to FCO
did you really read my post?
I mentioned that "I have information others don´t have"
now please start to think about that and maybe you will come to a valid conclusion
and yes: they took off and flew all the way to FCO