United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser

[Les Shore]

The guy's position was being subverted within his company, maybe a whispering campaign (hang over from previous industrial unrest... who knows).

Possibly, but the allegation that he was a scab was refuted on another website--a poster said it was confusion of two names.

You don't make it to senior airline Captain by being the kind of kook you are trying to make this guy out to be!

True! What initially gave this story legs. was that given the limited and sketchy details first presented, kookiness, really bad decision making or an out of control ego seemed like possibilities. To think that an airline Captain would suffer from any of those conditions is what many find disturbing. We now have totally opposite accounts and perspectives given by two people claiming to have been on the scene.

Either that or he simply lost his cool over something totally inconsequential and things escalated from there

I don't agree that the threat to the Captain's food or a staff mutiny was inconsequential!Was there a better way to handle the situation? Possibly but maybe not, depending on the specific circumstances. And those we'll probably never know.

[cessnapuppy]

The guy's position was being subverted within his company, maybe a whispering campaign (hang over from previous industrial unrest... who knows). -------------- Possibly, but the allegation that he was a scab was refuted on another website--a poster said it was confusion of two names.

True, but in a (deleted) post from BasedOnFacts, the same 'scab' allegation was raised - which points to me that it's not material if he (the captain) was or was not a scab, only that people could have thought and acted as if he was (which we know to be true)

I don't believe things came to a head by chance, it smells of having been engineered. A put up job, designed to allow the captain..

Then it seems, you ultimately agree with me when I say the Gendecs themselves could not have been the trigger for the incident (the pretext perhaps - but not the trigger) Knowing that he is dealing with a shrewish Katherine*, he cunningly asks for some trivial document (the gendecs) at a time less than conducive to her schedule , but legally appropriate for him to request. Her expected 'creative interpretation' of his direct request (and the possible safety implication of sliding a piece of paper under a door - where others could slip and fall by stepping on it) would give him a further justification to give her a stern talking to, her blood already at a boil (and the meal service nigh) her sharpened tongue (already laden with bitter entreaties) would easily let loose a threat - one directly actionable with a response, vs her usual snide, sotto voce derisions aimed at and oft heard only by HIM! This is truly a brain of Machiavellian schemes and cunning! *See Taming of the Shrew I have no doubt we will hear the end of this - we didnt expect CityFan but he arrived unbidden, the truth has a way of finding its way, as they say till then, lets rechew these tidbits like cows (or even worse,like rabbits)

[MU3001A]

Les Shore:

I don't agree that the threat to the Captain's food or a staff mutiny was inconsequential!

The threat to his food/mutiny, if there was any. Occurred after the incident with the crew decs, not before.

[p51guy]

nobody know what happened. Lets wait til the captain makes his report. If the FA made a comment about contaminating his food or drink the result is obvious.

[DownIn3Green]

nambiFox is right on target...as is 411A...IMHO...period...

[SaturnV]

Accepting cityfan's statement that United's investigation is a flight safety investigation, the principal parties (through their proxies) have raised three situations where flight safety could have been compromised:

a.) the purser asserting that providing the captain with the customs declaration document when he sought it would have violated security protocols re: door coverage;

b.) the captain asserting he directly heard the purser threatening to tamper with the crew meal;

c.) the captain asserting that the purser (and perhaps other cabin crew) was insubordinate.

With regard to c.) its unclear why the captain would think the safety of the flight would be more compromised by continuing to its scheduled destination of Chicago, rather than by first diverting to Miami. (cityfan asserts that once the captain announced the diversion, the purser deliberately interfered with the safety of the flight, but that occurs after the diversion decision was made.)

so for the moment, IMO, its a.) vs, b.)

And FWIW, the captain has been a long-time contributor to ALPA's PAC.

[based on facts]

Well, here it is, almost into December 2009 and the captain in question in this thread of July 2009, has never been returned to flying for United Airlines (and never will ) yet this Purser that many of you were so sure had caused a problem is flying to her hearts content. She has had and continues to have all of her crews support...especially the cockpit. So for those of you who posess the "know it all attitudes, as an authority on the situation or claim you were there," can all start removing your foot from your mouths. The facts speak the truth...you on the other hand were/are only making suppositions and, you are and were wrong, regardless of what you have posted or I'm sure will post. The purser will continue to enjoy her holidays while the captain will be on the unemployment line...as he should be. What really boggles the mind, is that, those aforementioned, just can't grasp that this captain was grossly flawed in his actions....yes, I said it...a captain was wrong...oh my God...any of you having chest pain? It's a new world out there guys. Captains aren't given respect just because they are a "captain." They have to earn it...the "left seat" doesn't guarantee it any longer, just as someone who is a physician doesn't automatically have respect. They too, must earn respect over time. Many people have important jobs and they have to earn respect everyday. Ya know, I'd think some of you must become frightfully tired with the effort of, not only putting yourself so high on your pedestal but keeping yourself there.

[411A]

Ya know, I'd think some of you must become frightfully tired with the effort of, not only putting yourself so high on your pedestal but keeping yourself there.

Gosh, the attitude displayed above is bizarre.
In my airline, the Captain absolutely rules, make no mistake.
IF I say the purser is 'gone'...the purser remains gone, never to return.
And, the company management backs me up every time.

UAL...to be avoided.
Especially, if the above referenced post is indicative of the trolly-dolly limp-wristed attitudes of CC folks that are in the employ of said aircarrier

[stilton]

You've been waiting all this time to let us know this Captain has not returned to flying yet and you think this proves something ?



There are many potential reasons he has not returned to the Cockpit yet and I doubt you are in on them.



'Based on facts' seems an odd moniker for someone who provides none.

[merlinxx]

You just don't get it 'Based on facts'

The Captain is The Captain You respect the uniform and rank, you don't have to respect the person wearing said uniform displaying that rank

A personality clash is just that The Purser/IFD etc., is part of the crew under the Captain's authority, the Captain is the head of that crew, the senior Cabin Crew member only assumes full authority in an emergency once the aircraft has come to a full stop, when the Captain relinquishes authority to the senior cabin crew member to evac the the pax.

You sound like a very twisted cabin crew member to me, and to most others, I'm glad I've never come across this attitude in all my years in the industry.

[captjns]

Perhaps the captain would still be flying today if he exercised better judgement by requesting administration to be present upon arrival into ORD. Oh well… must have been the pain killers.

[L337]

based on facts:

Your post tells us allot about you, and nothing about anything else.

[cityfan]

Shouldn't Based On Facts post under "Wannabees"?!

Well, here it is, almost into December 2009 and the captain in question in this thread of July 2009, has never been returned to flying for United Airlines [hl](and never will )[/hl]

How VERY silly of you. And you KNOW "based on the facts" that he will never return to flying for UAL? Well, let me tell you the FACTS....he will either walk away with AT LEAST SEVEN FIGURES or he will return to the cockpit within 90 days...FACT!

yet this Purser that many of you were so sure had caused a problem is flying to her hearts content. She has had and continues to have all of her crews support...especially the cockpit.

Yes, because SHE does not have ANY authority, so has no case to answer for exercising same. As for the "support" you suggest, where was it the might of the incident when she extolled ALL the FAs to disembark with her?!

So for those of you who posess the "know it all attitudes, as an authority on the situation or claim you were there," can all start removing your foot from your mouths. The facts speak the truth...you on the other hand were/are only making suppositions and, you are and were wrong, regardless of what you have posted or I'm sure will post.

Au contraire. I would politely suggest that you are taking the fact that SHE is working and that he is not as evidence of something OTHER THAN the facts of the situation. As has been said MANY TIMES HERE, there are certain "issues" the company has with this GOOD UNION MAN....most of which have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the incident....which, if YOU were "in the know" would already know!

The purser will continue to enjoy her holidays while the captain will be on the unemployment line...as he should be.

AND THERE IT IS! Judge, jury and executioner....all in the form of a bitter FA who forgot to check the "PILOT" box on the application and is now distraught over being a servant, err, I mean "safety professional."

What really boggles the mind, is that, those aforementioned, just can't grasp that this captain was grossly flawed in his actions....yes, I said it...a captain was wrong...oh my God...any of you having chest pain?

Right, wrong, lack of judgment in exercising authority/responsibility or not, YOUR complete lack of professionalism is clearly saying volumes about you...as is

It's a new world out there guys.

Sexist!

Captains aren't given respect just because they are a "captain."

Again, you are mistaking your disdain for legal standing. Did you miss the first day of CLR? Just in case you did, the FIRST THING THAT WAS SAID...AND WRITTEN... is "The Captain Is In Charge." Or simply read your FAOM!!!

As for respect, as a FA, what would you know about it? Why is it that when things get too hot for FAs to handle, they come to the Flight Crew? Must be because they are big strong fellows....or COULD it be that CAPTAINS HAVE ALL THE LEGAL AUTHORITY TO DO AS THEY PLEASE, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE LAW AT 35,000 FEET?!

They have to earn it

They already did, most over a 20+ career and thousands of hours of doing what escapes you!

...the "left seat" doesn't guarantee it any longer, just as someone who is a physician doesn't automatically have respect. They too, must earn respect over time. Many people have important jobs and they have to earn respect everyday. Ya know, I'd think some of you must become frightfully tired with the effort of, not only putting yourself so high on your pedestal but keeping yourself there.

And THIS is the mindset that is killing airlines like United Airlines. Somehow, somewhere along the way, Flight Attendants FORGOT who they are and what they are. Sure, you know how to shout a few commands and open a few doors..BFD! How many times in a career do you do that?! So, what is it that you DO ACTUALLY DO? Ah, yes..."chicken or beef?" "More tea, sir?"

The Captain in question was asked, as part of the aftermath to the safety investigation do what UAL calls "a psychological evaluation." As I have said, he is a high profile union man and UAL, which sued ALPA in 2008 (and he may have been one of the people under scrutiny during that period), has sought to lay the groundwork for future action, should it be warranted.

Having filed the required Flight Safety paperwork, he CANNOT be fired for this event. However, as stated above, he has recently had surgery, is concluding his company mandated evaluations and is about to enjoy a nice Christmas and New Year at home, with full pay and a return to service after a routine, required Sim Check in the new year.

So, you have your details. The company is after him, for reasons OTHER THAN this event. The FA in question was returned to service, as usual, because without proof that she followed through with her threat, and because the threat was NOT said directly to the Captain, but THROUGH a First Officer, it ended up being a "he said, she said." For those of you who do not live in the USA, that means an almost certain lawsuit if the company did what they SHOULD have done, fire the mutinous FA! Did I mention it was a "she"? And I will leave race out of it!

'Nuff said or is it?...............

HERE IS A PRIVATE MESSAGE I RECEIVED, COMPLETELY UNSOLICITED YESTERDAY ABOUT THIS INCIDENT. AS YOU MIGHT NOTICE, THERE IS MORE THAN A LITTLE "THREATENING" LANGUAGE IN HERE, WHICH SEEMS TO BE THE NORM WITH UAL FAS THESE DAYS...MUST BE THAT LACK OF RESPECT THING THEY HAVE GOING FOR THEM..

FOR ALL TO SEE:

United diverts to MIA
City Fan,
You might be fooling some of the people in this thread but not me. I was there...you weren't. The Gen Decs had been completed and passed to cockpit approx. 12 minutes after take off. In your post, I read that the Gen Decs started the entire incident...how wrong you were. You led everyone to believe that you know the truth and that I do not...we both know you're full of **** and a liar. Now, should you actually be the captain from this flight...you're still full of ****, a liar and out of a job and we at United are thrilled you're gone...you are a dangerous pilot.

If you post anymore "stories" leading readers to think you were there and know what happened first hand, there are eleven fight attendants and a First Officer that are just waiting to pounce on you and show everyone that you have NO clue what took place....we do!!! Make this email public if you chose...makes no difference to me...or are you embarrassed to do it? I'd be VERY embarrassed if I were you.

Based on Facts

As you can see, "Based On Feces," I am nether embarrassed nor afraid of your stupidity or threats. As for pouncing on me, I would prefer you save that for your layovers with your "buddy bidder." (That IS why you fly those flights to South America, right?) What gave you the impression that I was your bitch?! Or would act like it here?!

Hate to tell you, but I am not exactly quaking in my boots from keyboard cowards like you, who threaten people in Private Messages. YOU can say whatever YOU want. Unless you were the purser, then EVERYTHING YOU THINK YOU KNOW IS SECONDHAND CYA AT BEST! AND, if you thought it was all so cut and dried, what is YOUR reason for not leaving with the Purser in MIA? You could be a hero with your buddies if you had done that, couldn't you? Oh wait, it would be YOU on the unemployment line, right? Tough market for someone with "coffee, tea, or me?" skills, isn't it?!

Sorry, but you picked the wrong person to TRY and intimidate, you silly little person.

[Rainboe]

I think 'Based of Facts' needs therapy. He needs to know without the full 'facts' little can be gleaned from the apparent outcome. It could well be that the Captain can no longer stand flying with such hysterical juniors in the cabin and has taken what we call 'the Kings Shilling' and departed for a well earned (and subsidised) retirement.

Altogether, less hysteria was needed about this. Lessons to be learned? Respect for authority and chain of command. Less desire to erect inter-crew walls. A united approach to the task. But don't worry, I've seen similar in another Big Airline with the same colours.

I still feel immensely sorry for the captain. Trying to fly safely at 500kts with a nest of vipers under your feet is exceedingly hard! Maybe he just had enough of their nauseating attitudes! Certainly we have it in full display here.

[The_Steed]

You beat me to it Rainboe - Although I work in IT and not aviation, the principle is the same in that we have both gone through training to be able to fly the plane/ fix the PC. Being told forcefully by people with a limited knowledge how I should be doing my job all the time is enough to have made me say 'gtf' to some previous employers!

[411A]

...nest of vipers

Hmmm, I had one of those only one time.
I turfed the lot off (except the purser, who was just fine) at base and asked for the standby crew.
The fleet manager said 'well done' and the offending CC received don't come Monday letters, pronto.

[based on facts]

City Fan, you and your cronies are SUCH entertainment!! I knew that the posting from last pm would produce a hail storm of entertainment and I was so right. The thread had been dead for so long, it sure doesn't take much to get all of the "big, self important men to get so puffed up." Don't worry boys...you're ALL pretty! Thank you for the laughs.

You mentioned several items that I will address as you are off track as usual...

1)You mentioned some blather about missing the first day of CLR...maybe had the captain utilized that valuable tool...he would be flying and not incurring the ire of his colleagues and this whole situation would not have taken place. Guess he must have missed the entire course.

2) NO threat in any way shape or form was made to/about the captain. The rumor of food tampering is just that...rumor. Knowing the Purser, I do know,there is no death wish there. The capt. is flying the ******* plane for God sake...think about it!!

3) No one to my knowledge has EVER said a capt. is not in command. It has been said, and rightfully so, it's the RESPECT that is earned, authority has never been questioned.

4) The Purser was not "returned to service." The Purser never left.

5) No one cares if he walks away with a sizeable amount of money, as a domestic captain said last week..."just as long as he walks away...there is no amount of money you can place on a life."

6) As far as why we, the fellow F/A's did NOT deplane with the Purser?...we were asked by the Purser to remain with the plane and get psgrs. to Chicago as they had already been flying for hours. The Purser seemed to be the only one who cared about the people who pay our salaries. When we said we didn't feeel safe with the capt., the Purser said, of course we could deplane, but if there was any way we could possibly get the plane and passengers to Chicago, please do but our decision would be supported whatever we chose. FYI: if ANY crew member does not feel safe at any point we are free to refuse to fly and there are NO negative repercussions. SAFETY comes first and foremost at United Airlines!

7) The masss majority of our pilots, regradless of seat they occupy, are just amazed that the 2 Frst Officers onboard continued to fly with the captain. They would not have!

So, you see...you need to get your facts straight. Yes, these entries have been written with facts AND yes, some emotion esp. after reading from "arm chair" persons that were not there and do not know the facts....just as yourself, little man. Don't fear...I'm sure you're pretty too.

[Mr Optimistic]

I'm sure you're pretty too

What ? Did UAL's 'diversity' policy get out of hand to the extent that good looking individualism is more valued than obedience and service ?

[DownIn3Green]

Maybe "Just The Farce" is living in one of "those" states where public displays of affection are legalized...

I've had many F/A's on my flights who suscribed to the "alternate" lifestyle, and never had a problem....However, I don't think I've ever met a crewmember on my airplane who is so "outgoing"....

Even the US Military has the "Don't ask, don't tell" policy...Maybe "Just the Farce" should consider what his "bidding buddy" is making him type on the Prune before he pushes the send key...

[based on facts]

Are you people THAT dense??? The "Pretty" comment is nothing more than pure, unadulterated sacrcasm for the tight ass men who spout so many opinions without the FACTS... Call me whatever you wish...like I care??? I do , however; KNOW what happened...you don't. I enjoyed sharing the FACTS but you chose to take what you wanted and add your two cents so it made sense to you. The whole problem with this pilot is,...what he did DOESN'T make sense...that's why FAA is going after him with everything they have. Is it THAT hard for ANY of you to believe that one of your own actually used poor judgement? It's that kind of thinking that makes some of you dangerous. If ANY of you say, "I've never used poor judgement" it either makes you a fool or dangerous or a dangerous fool. It's unfortunate but EVERYONE at some point screws up...face it. If you recall 2 Northwest Pilots screwed up...they were so busy on personal issues, they forgot to land!! Now, are you going to argue, speculate and defend that captain and co-pilot??? Geeze...sounds like the captain MADE A MISTAKE.... Does he have my respect because he wears a uniform and sits in the left seat??? Hell no!!! Hasn't and NEVER will earn it. OK...for all of you "know it all's, I'm the captain and what I say is law..." hate to break it to you, you're human like the rest of us.