United GRU-ORD Divert to MIA to Offload Purser
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Hey it's a rumour network.
The basic fact of the diversion is enough to inspire speculation on what could have justified the captain's decision to divert, as opposed to simply alerting the company of the situation and waiting until reaching Chicago to resolve things. Most have concluded that short of an imminent threat or some sort of insurrection, it is difficult to imagine a situation that could justify the decision to divert. So if you have some insights to share particularly as it might pertain to the captain's side of the story, be our guest and spill the beans. Are you familiar with the version of events as related by other members of the flight crew, or just the captain? I'd be willing to bet the version of events likely to be closest to the truth, would be that related by the other two pilots on the flight deck that day.
Regards
The basic fact of the diversion is enough to inspire speculation on what could have justified the captain's decision to divert, as opposed to simply alerting the company of the situation and waiting until reaching Chicago to resolve things. Most have concluded that short of an imminent threat or some sort of insurrection, it is difficult to imagine a situation that could justify the decision to divert. So if you have some insights to share particularly as it might pertain to the captain's side of the story, be our guest and spill the beans. Are you familiar with the version of events as related by other members of the flight crew, or just the captain? I'd be willing to bet the version of events likely to be closest to the truth, would be that related by the other two pilots on the flight deck that day.
Regards
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Yes, "rumor" network, indeed. However, since when does "rumor network" mean denigrating fellow professionals in lieu of facts and debasing Captain's exercising their legal authority to maintain command and control over the entire flight operation.
Let me ask you, if the First Officer was refusing to do what the Captain said, and was mounting an insurrection with other crew members, threatening his food and telling him HE was in control of the crew, what would you say THEN?
Forgive my ire, but we finally have a Captain who is willing to go to the mat to MAINTAIN the Captain's Authority too many are willing to give away to crusty, old, "I know better" Flight Attendants, and we hang him on hearsay and say things like "well, silence is telling" and "he is not working and she is, so that tells a story" and other such BS.
All I am asking for is some reasonable respect for a fellow professional. I was hoping that was not too much to ask, especially in a PILOT forum.
Take care.
Let me ask you, if the First Officer was refusing to do what the Captain said, and was mounting an insurrection with other crew members, threatening his food and telling him HE was in control of the crew, what would you say THEN?
Forgive my ire, but we finally have a Captain who is willing to go to the mat to MAINTAIN the Captain's Authority too many are willing to give away to crusty, old, "I know better" Flight Attendants, and we hang him on hearsay and say things like "well, silence is telling" and "he is not working and she is, so that tells a story" and other such BS.
All I am asking for is some reasonable respect for a fellow professional. I was hoping that was not too much to ask, especially in a PILOT forum.
Take care.
Rumour, Opinion and Judgement
It may well be a rumour network but more often than not it is an "opinion" network and often somewhat judgmental.
Sadly the opinions are often given with scant reference to any facts (more like preformed bias and bigotry) and the absence of facts does not make them any less likely to be offered or judgement passed on the basis of the, frequently highly subjective and biased opinions alone.
Ah well .. that's entertainment.
Sadly the opinions are often given with scant reference to any facts (more like preformed bias and bigotry) and the absence of facts does not make them any less likely to be offered or judgement passed on the basis of the, frequently highly subjective and biased opinions alone.
Ah well .. that's entertainment.
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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cityfan - whilst you may have particular personal reasons for your 'hypothetical' post, you have effectively brought the thread back to the top after it lay (thankfully) dormant for 11 days. It appeared to be 'over' here on this 'Rumour' network at least until some more FACTS arose. I'm not sure that was the right thing to do. Now it will all kick off again - unless the thread is closed. Despite your 'appeal', none of us can do more than pass opinion on what is presented here, without real facts.
Your post 'hints' at 'mutiny' which is indeed a serious event. However, why should we give your 'hypothetical' posts any more creedance than others here?
Your post 'hints' at 'mutiny' which is indeed a serious event. However, why should we give your 'hypothetical' posts any more creedance than others here?
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Cityfan
I think you need to have a read of what little we know went on here. No one, or not many, are questioning the captains authority to divert but more his reasons for doing so, as MU3001A also stated.
Insurrection, are you actually serious about this? Pitch forks at the flight deck door and all that? He landed and off loaded the purser, no one else and then carried on. If there had been a full scale mutiny happening don't you think one or two others might also have been asked to stay in MIA.
Your ill thought out hypothesis has not helped in trying to give the captain on that flight a break.
I think you need to have a read of what little we know went on here. No one, or not many, are questioning the captains authority to divert but more his reasons for doing so, as MU3001A also stated.
Insurrection, are you actually serious about this? Pitch forks at the flight deck door and all that? He landed and off loaded the purser, no one else and then carried on. If there had been a full scale mutiny happening don't you think one or two others might also have been asked to stay in MIA.
Your ill thought out hypothesis has not helped in trying to give the captain on that flight a break.
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your ill thought out hypothesis has not helped in trying to give the captain on that flight a break.
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Nigd3 says:
Reading the thread shows just how little we do know about what went on here.
At one point it looked as if we were getting some facts and then it turned out that the (newly registered) poster who claimed to be a F/A on the flight and claimed to be giving the 'facts' was (ab)using PPRuNe to pursue a grudge against the captain.
Still no facts on which to base a sensible opinion about the captain's decision, yet still it goes on ..........
Cityfan
I think you need to have a read of what little we know went on here
I think you need to have a read of what little we know went on here
At one point it looked as if we were getting some facts and then it turned out that the (newly registered) poster who claimed to be a F/A on the flight and claimed to be giving the 'facts' was (ab)using PPRuNe to pursue a grudge against the captain.
Still no facts on which to base a sensible opinion about the captain's decision, yet still it goes on ..........
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Remove the word "hypothetically" and how does it read?
I think I have said more than I should have already, so I will bow out safe in the knowledge I did as much as I could to defend the professionalism of the Captain in question.
As is always the case, some see red where blue is presented, and there is obviously nothing more I can do for those of you who need more. The issue is still "under investigation" and, as such, I should probably not have put as much in public as I have. However, this forum has a tendency to undermine pilots and, in this instance, and because I doubt he reads this forum, I felt I needed to defend his honor.
Believe what you will. I know the truth and believe we should all hold our opinions, especially when they undermine us all, until further is known. I have given as much (more!) as I can.
My best to you all.
As is always the case, some see red where blue is presented, and there is obviously nothing more I can do for those of you who need more. The issue is still "under investigation" and, as such, I should probably not have put as much in public as I have. However, this forum has a tendency to undermine pilots and, in this instance, and because I doubt he reads this forum, I felt I needed to defend his honor.
Believe what you will. I know the truth and believe we should all hold our opinions, especially when they undermine us all, until further is known. I have given as much (more!) as I can.
My best to you all.
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However, this forum has a tendency to undermine pilots ...
Yes it does, and the negative comments (from actual pilots) normally comes, I expect, from rather junior First Officers who truly believe all the latest 'CRM' nonsense.
Later on, of course, they might come up against some gruff 'ole Captain or Fleet Manager, who will change their attitude, rather quickly.
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And he will become universally known as an asshole amongst that young 'uns peer group, because they were too stupid to see what he was trying to do FOR them, not TO them.
I remember, early days on the 727 (a notoriously difficult, swept wing aircraft to land IMHO), I lowered a runway by at least a foot and possibly more. As we taxied in, I remarked to the Captain that I had better stand at the cockpit door and apologize for that. He turned to me without missing a beat and said, "
that! If they want to go through the years of training and sacrifice you have gone through to get here and then give it a shot themselves, then fine. Until then, safety is what they paid for and safety is what they got." And not a smile or curved lip in sight!
All I could say was "Thank you, Captain," but it clearly left an indelible mark on my pilot psyche. I am pretty sure he had probably never heard, nor wanted to hear, the word "mentor," but that is exactly what I took from the encounter and what I try my damnedest to instill in my FOs. Thankfully, most of them are technically excellent and there is nothing but encouragement and praise to be shared.
I remember, early days on the 727 (a notoriously difficult, swept wing aircraft to land IMHO), I lowered a runway by at least a foot and possibly more. As we taxied in, I remarked to the Captain that I had better stand at the cockpit door and apologize for that. He turned to me without missing a beat and said, "
that! If they want to go through the years of training and sacrifice you have gone through to get here and then give it a shot themselves, then fine. Until then, safety is what they paid for and safety is what they got." And not a smile or curved lip in sight! All I could say was "Thank you, Captain," but it clearly left an indelible mark on my pilot psyche. I am pretty sure he had probably never heard, nor wanted to hear, the word "mentor," but that is exactly what I took from the encounter and what I try my damnedest to instill in my FOs. Thankfully, most of them are technically excellent and there is nothing but encouragement and praise to be shared.
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If they want to go through the years of training and sacrifice you have gone through to get here and then give it a shot themselves, then fine. Until then, safety is what they paid for and safety is what they got.
Any pilot who makes an apology for a firm, but otherwise completely safe landing, is looney.
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......that is exactly what I took from the encounter and what I try my damnedest to instill in my FOs
Let me ask you, if the First Officer was refusing to do what the Captain said, and was mounting an insurrection with other crew members, threatening his food and telling him HE was in control of the crew, what would you say THEN?
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Les Shore
There have been several threads on this topic over the years.
Here's an example that will answer your question: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/2...on-pilots.html
H.
"threatening food". How exactly would that work?
Here's an example that will answer your question: http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/2...on-pilots.html
H.
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The only reason this topic was ever splashed across the media, and is now a thread of nearly 30 pages and 600 posts, is because it was a reported event that was in itself so bizzare. Whatever the reasons for the event, and whatever the outcome of the investigations, it seems fairly clear that they are not something that United feels it either wants to or can share with anybody else, for whom there might be a lesson to be learned.
From the snippets of information here, it appears that there are some fairly disturbing undercurrents that might or might not be unique to this particular flight, this corporate culture, or perhaps more generally? It has now been over a Month since the event made news, and given that it wasn't an accident, and all the parties are available, it is not unreasonable to expect there might have been either a public or an industry relevant statement on this event by now? There can be little doubt that from a P.R standpoint the company would want the interest in this event to simply evaporate. There may well be underlying issues and tensions that neither the company nor the participants wish to have aired in public. It also sounds as if there are issues that need handling in a supremely diplomatic manner in order to prevent them from escalating or causing further damage to an already fragile and embattled industry player. The problem from a P.R standpoint is that the Genie is already out of the bottle, and seems reluctant to be pushed back in.
From the snippets of information here, it appears that there are some fairly disturbing undercurrents that might or might not be unique to this particular flight, this corporate culture, or perhaps more generally? It has now been over a Month since the event made news, and given that it wasn't an accident, and all the parties are available, it is not unreasonable to expect there might have been either a public or an industry relevant statement on this event by now? There can be little doubt that from a P.R standpoint the company would want the interest in this event to simply evaporate. There may well be underlying issues and tensions that neither the company nor the participants wish to have aired in public. It also sounds as if there are issues that need handling in a supremely diplomatic manner in order to prevent them from escalating or causing further damage to an already fragile and embattled industry player. The problem from a P.R standpoint is that the Genie is already out of the bottle, and seems reluctant to be pushed back in.
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Antics
The 'eyedrops in the coffee' is nothing new rumour, it is something that has 'allegedly' taken place on more than one occasion around the world.It is 'allegedly' done to troublesome passengers and nasty crew not for the purpose of 'poisoning them to cause death' but rather to 'make them sick and give them a bad case of the squirts' in an act of revenge.
I do stress the 'allegedly' component in this response, however I do know for certain that a 'former Chief Executive Officer at an Australian airline which only just posted a profit statement just today' would never eat or drink absolutely anything while using his airline for travel and especially fears the Eyedrop product.
Furthermore,the trick with the Eyedroppers was first 'introduced' by workers in the 'Hospital' field, apparently Doctors can be as self righteous as Pilots. Who would have thought !!!!!!
I do stress the 'allegedly' component in this response, however I do know for certain that a 'former Chief Executive Officer at an Australian airline which only just posted a profit statement just today' would never eat or drink absolutely anything while using his airline for travel and especially fears the Eyedrop product.
Furthermore,the trick with the Eyedroppers was first 'introduced' by workers in the 'Hospital' field, apparently Doctors can be as self righteous as Pilots. Who would have thought !!!!!!
Warning Toxic!
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Disgusted of Tunbridge
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It most certainly was, and may well still be, a very common event in legacy airlines! I know I have been 'nobbled' on several occasions. I have heard crew boasting about doing it when the alcohol takes over and out it pops. It is one step away from insanity to intentionally poison your pilot, but it happens. Those tending to do it are the older, embittered females with a grudge, real or imagined, or the young aggressive 'why are you paid more than me? We all do the same job'-type males with a real problem about 'overpaid pilots'. But that is a complete new subject that is not encouraged.
What 'event' needs a 'statement' pray? In airline annals, it is one of the lesser important 'events'. A flight diverted, a crew member left the flight, flight continued, everybody landed safely after a minor 1 hour delay. What more do you need?
It has now been over a Month since the event made news, and given that it wasn't an accident, and all the parties are available, it is not unreasonable to expect there might have been either a public or an industry relevant statement on this event by now?
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What 'event' needs a 'statement' pray? In airline annals, it is one of the lesser important 'events'. A flight diverted, a crew member left the flight, flight continued, everybody landed safely after a minor 1 hour delay. What more do you need?
Much of the interest is borne out of, just how unusual a situation this appears to be. However your experience and comment would suggest it is not as unusual as some might think? From a professional standpoint that might clearly raise some alarming markers. Whether United make any further comment on this issue is clearly a matter for them and the individuals concerned, but the underlying issues and their greater or lesser concerns to the wider industry are clearly cause for comment and debate here, as you yourself so obviously demonstrate.
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Bea - I guess anyone who has
would be more sensitive to it?
As we know the thread is divided essentially by peoples' view of 'command'/'leadership' issues.
been 'nobbled' on several occasions.
As we know the thread is divided essentially by peoples' view of 'command'/'leadership' issues.
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Don't hold your breath waiting for UAL to say ANYTHING further about this matter. Now that it has become a union-company issue, and personal behavior is the main thrust of the discussion, it will ALL be done behind closed doors, possibly (hopefully) by the respective unions Professional Standards Committees in concert with the company officials reviewing the case. As such, it will be confidential.
As stated earlier, because a flight attendant got an email out to their peers and the Captain kept the matter in-house (following company protocols regarding safety reporting), only one side of the story got out into the ether. I was merely attempting to provide some context to the "what was his problem?" aftermath, especially given his inability to respond personally. Unfortunately, therein lies the rub, but I can assure you that you have the Captain's side of the tale.
I should have let the thread die a natural death, knowing that some already "get it" and others never will. C'est la vie.
As stated earlier, because a flight attendant got an email out to their peers and the Captain kept the matter in-house (following company protocols regarding safety reporting), only one side of the story got out into the ether. I was merely attempting to provide some context to the "what was his problem?" aftermath, especially given his inability to respond personally. Unfortunately, therein lies the rub, but I can assure you that you have the Captain's side of the tale.
I should have let the thread die a natural death, knowing that some already "get it" and others never will. C'est la vie.
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To me the most important facet of the ordeal is the amount of attention it's drawn; as such it is a poor commentary on the state of the level of professionalism and cooperation in the Industry. Rumours are interesting, but gossip is deplorable. The difference?? Gossip is a rumour that's been dipped in poison. Plenty of that here, and it bodes ill.
Will
Will