Turkish airliner crashes at Schiphol
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Just to add to what was just stated by Flying Clogger, Much earlier in this thread another member noted he flew in Schiphol this morning and noted the presence of birds. Believe the words "More than usual" were used. Just wanted to add in case people skipped it.
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I wonder how long it took the rescue services to manage to open the "armour plated" flight deck door - and whether they had had any training beforehand in how to tackle it.
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Even if this aircraft struck a multitude of birds, and both engines were destroyed, the cause of the accident is failure to maintain proper flying speed.
I am sure it is quite obvious to most here that the aircraft stalled close to the ground, and did not recover.
I am sure it is quite obvious to most here that the aircraft stalled close to the ground, and did not recover.
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Big Birds in the vicinity of 18R this morning ...
Flying Clogger,
Your observation could be important - same runway and almost at the same time.
The observation could be valuable in the investigation!
Why not send an e-mail to the Dutch "NTSB"?
brgds
Your observation could be important - same runway and almost at the same time.
The observation could be valuable in the investigation!
Why not send an e-mail to the Dutch "NTSB"?
brgds
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just saw flaps
a picture clearly shows landing flaps set, clearly the slots between the flaps are visible.
coudn't see landing gear though.
as most of you know, max power flaps 15 would be the start of a goaround ( you might also call TOGA ) so, I don't think a go around was attempted.
coudn't see landing gear though.
as most of you know, max power flaps 15 would be the start of a goaround ( you might also call TOGA ) so, I don't think a go around was attempted.
FWIW I've seen a post on another forum (Mode-S receiver related) from someone who logged the crashed aircraft on his system this morning.
The last data recorded (on a system that does make use of QNH data, so should provide accurate altitude information) indicated 400ft and 88kts.
Make of that what you will.
The last data recorded (on a system that does make use of QNH data, so should provide accurate altitude information) indicated 400ft and 88kts.
Make of that what you will.
The post referred to also states a final position readout (i.e. last before the aircraft descended out of coverage) which corresponds to approximately 8,000ft short of the 18R paved area - again neither the height nor GS values necessarily correspond to that precise position.
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Flying Clogger
Witness statements or other relevant info can be submitted to the Dutch NTSB at [email protected] or by phone on +31 70 333 7000.
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Thread bloat: something everyone can do
Most of the fixes for thread bloat involve extra work for the mods and their masters.
One simple thing *everyone* can do is to ignore idiotic, uninformed or tasteless posts. Trust the mods to eliminate them and don't waste space commenting.
And for the PPrune Masters, one more complex option not yet proposed is to require mod approval for all posts in the serious forums, but once you have had a post approved by a mod you are granted direct posting rights, which you lose the minute a mod deletes one of your posts. This would not slow down serious posters but still allow outsiders a chance.
One simple thing *everyone* can do is to ignore idiotic, uninformed or tasteless posts. Trust the mods to eliminate them and don't waste space commenting.
And for the PPrune Masters, one more complex option not yet proposed is to require mod approval for all posts in the serious forums, but once you have had a post approved by a mod you are granted direct posting rights, which you lose the minute a mod deletes one of your posts. This would not slow down serious posters but still allow outsiders a chance.
Ut Sementem Feeceris
Well if it does turn out to be birds, that'll be two 737-800's and one A320 in the space of the last four(?) months.
Looking at the photo of the engine the top third (of the fan) seems to be almost undamaged. No or very low rotation at impact? Of course if the aircraft impacted belly first with very little forward motion that could well explain the damage to the lower part of the fan only - instant seizure at impact.
Another bad day
A4
PS EHAM has had a NOTAM for birds for months.
Looking at the photo of the engine the top third (of the fan) seems to be almost undamaged. No or very low rotation at impact? Of course if the aircraft impacted belly first with very little forward motion that could well explain the damage to the lower part of the fan only - instant seizure at impact.
Another bad day
A4
PS EHAM has had a NOTAM for birds for months.
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I've just trauled back through the thread and I can't seem to see the post regarding the unusual amount of birds which was posted much earlier (Around the 5-8 page mark). Obviously nothing can be confirmed at this point, but if it turns out further down the line that a bird strike was the catalyst in this tragic event and loss of life, what can be done to stop it in the future? I know there was some talk about engine covers used on some other types of aircraft being adapted, but I believe it was stated that it would not be possible?
Are there any technologies or products in development to try and stop this from happening? Either way, the Hudson was a double bird strike and with the news from another pilot that large birds were in the area of this incident it is alarming.
Are there any technologies or products in development to try and stop this from happening? Either way, the Hudson was a double bird strike and with the news from another pilot that large birds were in the area of this incident it is alarming.
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Birds/Undercarriage
Re birds, I've seen a great deal of the TV coverage on Sky and BBC today and concentrated on the pics rather than the supposedly informed verbal speculation.
There doesn't look to be any blood evidence of birdstrikes on the fuselage from close up stills BUT during some of the live coverage and the filmed loops shown I noticed two swans flying across the field between the camera position and the aircraft, a further flock of 4 or 5 swans (could have been geese) at greater distance beyond or over the motorway (difficult to tell due to camera effect) and some - and probably insignificant - small bird activity.
The presence of large birds in the area of the accident may be of no significance but we have seen twice in recent months what birds can do to airframes.
The question of the position of the undercarriage has been answered by a clip shown on Sky this afternoon which showed a main undercarriage wheel pair standing in the field to the right hand side of the aircraft as seen from the nose, some distance behind the wreckage. This would be the left hand main gear and, as it was standing upright and the main gear on a 737 retracts sideways through 90 degrees, it would seem to indicate the gear was down and was ripped off on contact with the soft clay.
Edited for clarity 20:44
There doesn't look to be any blood evidence of birdstrikes on the fuselage from close up stills BUT during some of the live coverage and the filmed loops shown I noticed two swans flying across the field between the camera position and the aircraft, a further flock of 4 or 5 swans (could have been geese) at greater distance beyond or over the motorway (difficult to tell due to camera effect) and some - and probably insignificant - small bird activity.
The presence of large birds in the area of the accident may be of no significance but we have seen twice in recent months what birds can do to airframes.
The question of the position of the undercarriage has been answered by a clip shown on Sky this afternoon which showed a main undercarriage wheel pair standing in the field to the right hand side of the aircraft as seen from the nose, some distance behind the wreckage. This would be the left hand main gear and, as it was standing upright and the main gear on a 737 retracts sideways through 90 degrees, it would seem to indicate the gear was down and was ripped off on contact with the soft clay.
Edited for clarity 20:44
Last edited by philbky; 25th Feb 2009 at 19:44.
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One press report that both recorders have been recovered. Are the Dutch quick to release information like the NTSB, or will additional official information be slow in release?
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Gentlemen, I am not going to speculate on any of the reasons that led to today's event.
But, I have a question that might sound somewhat stupid - why, in your opinion are the winglets shredded off? The wings are pretty much intact, however both winglets have been broken. I think it is safe to say that the horizontal speed of the aircraft was pretty low and I just do not understand how the sudden vertical deceleration could case them to break off half-way up
But, I have a question that might sound somewhat stupid - why, in your opinion are the winglets shredded off? The wings are pretty much intact, however both winglets have been broken. I think it is safe to say that the horizontal speed of the aircraft was pretty low and I just do not understand how the sudden vertical deceleration could case them to break off half-way up
Pegase Driver
Just to eliminate some wild theories : Could someone with some accident investigation knowledge "read" the blades damage visible on the second photo from post #353 on page 18 ?
consistent with some power on impact ,or idle or even a bird stike ?
consistent with some power on impact ,or idle or even a bird stike ?
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Possible it bears resemblance to this accident?
(Investigation Report)
http://www.bfu-web.de/cln_007/nn_226...MUC_Fokker.pdf
An excerpt:
>>>
The accident was due to the following immediate causes:
• After a prolonged time under moderate icing conditions and low engine thrust, ice developed on the rotors of the low pressure compressors of both engines.
• The bonded joints of the ice impact panels on both engines failed due to strains caused by ice-induced vibrations of the engines and by ice which had shedded from the rotors of the low pressure compressor.
• The loose ice impact panels became trapped in front of the outlet guide vanes of the low pressure compressor and affected the airflow in the by-pass duct in such a way that the engines now only produced low thrust.
• The runway was no longer within reach of the aircraft as the loss of thrust on both engines had not triggered any warnings and was not indicated until the necessary demand of thrust at an altitude of 3,500 ft.
• Due to its nature the terrain within reach was not suited for the landing of a transport airplane.
<<<
(Investigation Report)
http://www.bfu-web.de/cln_007/nn_226...MUC_Fokker.pdf
An excerpt:
>>>
The accident was due to the following immediate causes:
• After a prolonged time under moderate icing conditions and low engine thrust, ice developed on the rotors of the low pressure compressors of both engines.
• The bonded joints of the ice impact panels on both engines failed due to strains caused by ice-induced vibrations of the engines and by ice which had shedded from the rotors of the low pressure compressor.
• The loose ice impact panels became trapped in front of the outlet guide vanes of the low pressure compressor and affected the airflow in the by-pass duct in such a way that the engines now only produced low thrust.
• The runway was no longer within reach of the aircraft as the loss of thrust on both engines had not triggered any warnings and was not indicated until the necessary demand of thrust at an altitude of 3,500 ft.
• Due to its nature the terrain within reach was not suited for the landing of a transport airplane.
<<<
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I once refused to take off (R/W 24) as I could see a flock of geese crossing the take off path from right to left. ATC became a bit crinkly: “You’ll miss your slot, etc, etc”. Well I didn’t miss my slot, but I did miss the geese.
I see that Notams refer to migrating geese. That’s not strictly true (I write as an albeit not-too-serious bird watcher). They are COMMUTING geese moving between overnight roosts and feeding grounds.
Jack
I see that Notams refer to migrating geese. That’s not strictly true (I write as an albeit not-too-serious bird watcher). They are COMMUTING geese moving between overnight roosts and feeding grounds.
Jack
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Bird Control
"AMS got a Bird control unit so any case it´s better to contact them."
Interesting point. However, most bird scare takes place within the boundary of the aerodrome as I understand things. This accident occurred outside the boundary. What, if any, control is there of birds outside the Schiphol boundary - particulary a huge boundary like Schiphol?
If any bird control people could reposed. (I assume they are allowed to contribute to this forum, even under the proposed 'show me your ATPL’ rules...)
Interesting point. However, most bird scare takes place within the boundary of the aerodrome as I understand things. This accident occurred outside the boundary. What, if any, control is there of birds outside the Schiphol boundary - particulary a huge boundary like Schiphol?
If any bird control people could reposed. (I assume they are allowed to contribute to this forum, even under the proposed 'show me your ATPL’ rules...)
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The winglets of the 738 are made of very light composite material, they react very sensitive on all kinds of "force" applied. The load on impact is way beyond the winglet´s design limit - causing them to break.